AB 2683 passed the Senate transport committee, which means it will continue on for more votes. This will require smog tests for 1976 cars and newer forever, even when they are forty, fifty years old!

Here is the breakdown of votes:

Murray, Figueroa, Florez, Perata, Scott, Speier, and Torlakson all voted Yes, BASTARDS!!!

Ashborn, Karnette, Morrow, all did not vote, CHICKEN SHITS!!!

Mc Clintock, and Brulte voted No, HEROS!!!

It appears it now goes to another Senate Committee, I will try to keep you all updated on this crummy law.

Please call the Bastards, and Chicken Shits, and let them know how disapointed you are in them, and please call the Heros thank them, and ask them what you can do to help get this law struck down as it procededs thru the senate.


Dave Menche

Move to a real state....

Sorry to hear that guys,...

Better yet Dave fill in your location so we know WHICH STATE YOUR TALKING ABOUT!

or check out Tom's post titled

AB 2683 passed Senate Transportation Cmte., Bummer!

halfway down the first page. Tom's in San Jose, so I can only assume this is in Cali.

Jen

I love owning a 72...

IMHO it is inevitable that this will pass. The stats are against us - the worst poluters are older cars; and it's at the point where the oldest 2% are putting out 20% of the emissions. (approximately). If this is not true - it is certainly the data that is being presented to our leadership.

Regardless - Lotus have at least once in their history had to revise cars to meet california smog. And the time I know about that they INCREASED power output at the same time they did it.

So: Who can build a PZEV compiliant type 4 motor that puts out more power than stock? Who has the real cahones? With all the new tech that is available for type IV engines, it must be getting close to possible. It is definately possible to build an engine that will pass the tailpipe emissions test.

Now: If you did this to a 1976 914 - it would be illegal. It would fail smog because the visual inspection would fail on the grounds that it is not original emissions equiptment. EVEN IF IT IS MUCH BETTER THAN STOCK. That is a much larger problem. You should also write to your representin' people about this one.

BTW: Off Topic: Does Otmar get to use HOV lanes during peak hours?

I COULD stand them makeing me do a tailpipe test (Ie for all cars 30 years old AND older)

But If they want to do a visual? Im buying extra fireworks this year.... Im thinking 100 boxes of picklo petes, located at each persons house in favor of this...

Hmm That WOULD be Legal fun!

muhaha, (I make fireworks from other fireworks.. lots of fun, lots of bang..)

Andrew

Oh ya, i have a 73 in a box incase someone wants to Ehmm swap cars... (all the vins.. ext..)

"Warm Winds Blowing
Heating blue sky
And a Road that Goes Forever
I'm going to Texas"

-Song by Chris Rea, 'Road to Hell' CD


BTW that's what you get when you let liberals run your state.

That's one thing I like about Florida...NO emmisions.

None?

I dunno, I had some in Florida before, but I went to the doctor, and he fixed me right up.




M

Oh c'mon...
Arizona's politicians are about as conservative as you can find, and we've had to test all cars '67 and newer since testing was started in the '70s.

No, it's true...it's REALLY true!

[just open yours eyes and look around]

that's exactly what i do ...

all i see is "the man" milking us for money.
no matter what party they belong too.

doesn't matter dude,
it's all about YOUR scri$$a !!!

Damn guys,
I try to be quiet about this stuff, but I respect you all too much to see such old style thinking go unchallenged.
You like dying of industrial disease?

Step back for a moment and look at the piles of cars on the road today. All of them are dumping smog into the air.
Then look at the emissions from your stinking teener.
I'm not kidding, it doesn't get much worse than this. Friken air cooled engine, no Cat (pre 75) with antique FI. The average teener puts out 100 times the smog of a modern car (I kid you not). By modern standards, you must admit, the FI stinks. (literally)

Try riding a bicycle behind one and then tell me about your emissions. Living in the Bay area for almost 40 years makes it obvious, LA is much worse. You all have seen the smog, probably felt it in your lungs without even knowing it. Get out in clean air once in a while and you can really feel the difference. IIRC Cars produce 70 percent of the smog here. Sorry to put a little reality in here, but the truth hurts sometimes.

If I seem a bit agitated, it's only because I used to be a head mechanic at a VW shop and I changed my profession just because I realized I was helping unknowing people muck up the air by keeping old cars running. I also happen to like breathing clean air while pedaling a bicycle or out hiking. Now I'm trying to help develop alternatives that don't suck. Speed is good, Fun is good, smog is bad and so are the oil companies that are robbing you of cash while promoting your early death.

I agree, the California visual requirement is bad, especially with the new dyno testers. If you can make it better, I believe we all should have that option. That limitation sucks.

Myself, I just change motors to something new. My 82/86 Vanagon runs a 97 Jetta engine (I built the van in 98), fully smog compliant. And my teener runs on solar power, but that's expensive and has it's downsides at this time. Yes, one upside is that I drive in the carpool lane alone any time I want. For long trips I use the ULEV Insight.

So my advice is give up on that expensive antique air cooled engine that can't hold combustion temperatures constant and therefore never will be a clean engine. I believe the engine has little to do with the excellent qualities of the 914 that we love so much but lots to do with the headaches. Throw in a modern Soob, Toy or some other fun motor, meet the latest smog spec and get more power while you're at it. Not only that, you'll get better mileage and it will start nice and smooth, every time.

Just to show I'm not a totally rigid Eco idiot, I did spend today riding a Honda CBR 1000F to the coast on some of the best motorcycling roads in the country. It's very quick and probably not clean at all! You gotta have fun too, but if you're doing it regularly I believe you also have to think about the long term impacts. Obviously without regulations, few of you are doing anything about your emissions. To me that says you would just as well breath the soup they call "air" in the big cities in China.

Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.
Just my nickels worth. It's a bit too long for 2 cents.

Thank God for Texas!!! They've just started emissions testing recently, but it doesn't go that far back.

Your comment about China makes my point! The real aim of the liberal political philisopy is control, not clean air. In China, the governement controls everything, and their air is horrible.

And that whole deal about how you used to be a VW head mechanic, but then quit because you didn't want to help us poor saps like us unknowingly destroy the environment is a little arragant. My 914 used to get 32+ mpg. My New Beetle gets 24 on the highway!

The goverment going after hot-rodders and classic car owners is just a way for them to look like they are doing something so those environmental extreemists will vote for them. Making it harder on a few car owners won't have any real effect on air quality.

I don't agree or disagree with you statements however: My car is bone stock as well as Tom 76 914. Now say (example) Tom has to start Dyno testing his car and it fails the sniffer test, where previously it did not. The logic just doesn't add up. Add the Dyno testing element and cars will fail sniffer testing even if running well. And of course the State will cheerfully give Tom 500$ and scrap his low mile 914. Then sell that smog credit back to a large polluting company who pollutes more. Thank you very much. Given the outlook this could and will happen.

Smog Testing in a good idea but, I should not have to worry just because of a few politicians and their allies decided to change the playing field and move the goal posts that much farther. Instead they should concentrate on just sniffer testing and promote sensible cleaner fuels without MTBE.

Pat

Florida has emissions. I had to get them checked every year in JAcksonville. Just depends on the county.

Come on now, I know you're pissed and all and I understand. But you can't say that because Communist China screwed up the air, it'll happen here if we allow them to start restricting the use of above-average poluting engines. Thats just silly.

Otmar's not disputing gas mileage, he's talking about polution. Even if your teener used to get 32+ mpg, (A beetle should be getting around 30. I'd be concerned about the beetle getting only 24.) I'd be willing to bet it produces far more polution.

I don't think he's being arogant, just responsible given the information and opinions he has. The argument on exactly what and how much damage is being caused by older cars is a much more difficult one as there is a lot of theory all over the place, and a lot of lab fact, but its much more difficult to measure specifically as the changes in the atmosphere surrounding big cities has been affected by countless other variables over the years as well. But I don't think anyone can argue with the fact that reducing polutants is a good thing. There are lots of other sources but this happens to be a place to start. I'm sure that there have been large changes in laws govering manufacturing processes over the years too.

Now that visual inspection crap is just plain rediculous. I don't know law, but is there a quicker/easier way to challenge that law other than petitioning or voting someone in office hoping they'll tackle it? Can you take the state to court for something like that?

Really now... was there ever a question which state we're talking about here? Think about it.

Liberal does not equal communist.

That kind of extemism is what I expect of Osama Bin Laden + friends, not of an intelligent westerner.

The aim is not control; it is to target the worst polluting vehicles and try to control their output. It's like anything - if your teener runs mostly fine, but the brakes suck, what do you fix first?

Spend some time in LA. LA is in a basin which basically gets sealed off at the top by a layer of smog. I'm no expert, but I believe that it is getting better down there because of emissions control. You can SEE the smog - it taint's the color of the sky. It is not a good thing.

None of us like change, especially when it's decreed from some government beurocrat, but sometimes we have to evolve.

The china situation is waiting to happen. I like this country - I think it's sort of a victim of it's own success, but it's treated me very well and I am grateful. That does not stop us looking like an ASS to the rest of the world. If we do not try to clean up our act, we will look stupid when we ask China to clean up there act. They don't have a problem now. They have a growing economy with 25% of the worlds population that are just getting within reach of buying a car. We have about 5% of the worlds population. Do the math. It could get bad, and it will be worse for your kids.

Noone's saying you have to ditch your teener. Accept the challenge - get a clean modern engine, clean up an old engine - or go electric! You could also run propane - which will also get you into the HOV lane (IIRC). There are plenty of pre 75 teeners about if you want to run gasolene, and experiment with the 75 and 76 cars. Or just swap them out of state.

Be grateful that the original version of this law did not pass. The original version just killed the exemption and EVERY CAR would be in for the smog check. That is not what is happening, so every car who has ever been smog exempt is still smog exempt.

I'm still waiting for a Jake Raby PZEV motor....... Bring it on.

BTW. As for selling the SMOG credit - we should all oppose that. We are doing this for a better world, not so some freakin company can get a break on doing the right thing.

Try living in Phoenix, AZ where every car 1968 or newer must pass SMOG once each year. ARGH!

I don't trust air I can't see.


Sooner or later it's going to happen. They're going to repeal some part of the original rolling exemption law. Hell, they try to do something with it every stinking year.

I thought they had more pressing things to get done, like fixing this states financial woe's but I guess not.

It's like a bond issue on the ballot. If it doesn't pass the first time they try, try again until it does finally pass.

Which is especially fun in a teener... This ain't no idle test - some $8/hr yocal who's never seen one has to drive it on the roller, can't find the gears, starts out in 3rd. Pisses me off every time. No wonder the fucker won't pass, you don't know how to drive the goddamn thing...

You should consider what you've said and take a look at Bush and Ashcroft. Are you calling them liberal?

What is that old expression? "People in glass houses..."

It seems to me people like Michael Moore going overseas and putting down ALL of America [un chalenged] is only hurting us. It is people like Moore who try to act as if they are smart they can't see the damage they are causing. Believe it or not Moore is only interested in lining his own pockets. He's a real scumbag.

I don't really care what political party you belong to we all need to stand together during these tough times.

God Bless America

Happy 4th everyone!

Go Lance , the TDF is yours

haha, dude, you were just waiting for a chance (ANY chance) to get that off your chest, didn't you?
even if it's not related to the topic on hand ...

tell you what. i bet a sixpack of good german beer that you haven't seen his latest movie, but you sure have a opinion about the guy.

watch the movie, let it sink in for a day, then come back and talk again ...

it's not MM who's putting down america "overseas", it's the actions of this country that make it look bad. he just has the balls to point it out.
btw. no one overseas needs MM for that, they all know the truth better than you guys anyways. kinda scary, eh?


flame on brothers!
Andy

Fuck, I just couldn't let it go <_<


Wrong! Try doing a search on the finer parts of Fascism



"rejects liberal ideas", ""strongly associated with right-wing fanaticism"

M. Moore is a necessary evil, a political gadfly. It IS a shame that he ruins our patriotistic buzz, but we need to maintain an open mind and weigh everything equally and as unbiased as human nature will allow.

Well, it sounds like from some of the comments that you Californians pretty much are getting what you deserve. I even read some posts about putting electric motors in 914s so they pass smog? And everyone is saying to do this "for a better world". Wow. Well, thats 30 years of hippie B.S. that finally made it through the government schools and into the hearts and minds of alot of you. The laws on the books should reflect the best science thats out there, not what makes people feel better. Has anyone run a study as to how many people drive old clunkers anyways, to make this new law legitimate?

But enough of that. Here are my main objections:

1. Justice dictates that vehicles that could not meet todays emissions when they were built, should not be forced to meet the newer, tighter restrictions of today.

2. Secondly, if you are going to require tighter restrictions, then how can they possibly dictate that you cannot modify your car to meet these standards? Is that what you guys mean by "visual inspections"? Do they check your car out, even if it passes smog? The point is the most erroneous of them all because it effectively says that "you can't build your own car". In other words, if you can't modify your own car to comply with the law, then that gives an upper hand to the big auto manufacturers.

BTW, DrEvil is confusing classical liberalism with modern liberalism. Two different animals.
If you are looking for fascists, look no further than the tyranical judges on the 9th Circuit that deny the peoples voice.

The CA smog check requires a visual check of all of the smog equipment shown on a list that's unique to each model of car (said list provided by the state and downloaded at each smog test by the inspector). If the list says you have an air pump, there has to be an air pump on the car. If it says you have fuel injection, there can't be a set of carbs, etc.

This is independent of the tailpipe test. If you remove a carb from a late 70s car and fit aftermarket fuel injection, you'll fail the test even if your emissions are 10x better than they were before.

Now, in practice, if you pass the tailpipe test, you usually pass, period. But you're rolling the dice if you make modifications.

There is an out here, in that specific equipment that the state authorities have blessed may be fitted. So, things like aftermarket "cool intakes" can be fitted after they've been tested. Even things like complete aftermarket turbo kits complete with extra injectors and an ECU can be fitted, so long as the manufacturer gets the blessing. However, these tests are expensive enough that such a kit has to sell in pretty good numbers for it to be worthwhile financially.

You can also perform a complete engine swap, so long as you follow a set of fairly reasonable guidelines, and get the car inspected at a special state station once to get blessed.

And before you get all snooty about "us Californians", you should check what your own legislature is doing. Many other states are adopting California emissions regulations (including Texas), in whole or in part.

* California Air Resources Board (CARB) has all that information, it's often quoted. I believe it's public too, but I haven't read the originals.

1) AFAIK You only have to meet the old smog levels.

2) See above.
Visual inspection means that all the original equipment must be in place. This is because they don't have time to do a week long evap emissions test and full driving tests. The smog tests that we have to do are just checking a small part of that which a new production model is tested to.

This is the root problem with modifications, real testing is complicated and difficult.

Its true that cars will only have to meet the old emission level requirements, but they will have to do it in a different testing environment. (on a dyno). For some cars, having to be tested under load can make them fail where they wouldn't otherwise, however, for some they may actually pass where they didn't before. Being under load has the added effect of making CAT's run hotter (which will make them more effective up to a point) along with a few others.

As for whether or not getting rid of the rolling emmisions exemption is good or not, I think its a mixed deal. There aren't a huge number of '76 914's around, or even Porsche's in general, really. Even fewer Ferrari's Lambo's old Jags, MG's etc. Even BMW's and Mercedes and the like from the late 70's and early 80's aren't that common. However, there are still millions of old camaros, firebirds, and other american beaters that may not have even been started in the last 10 years that will suddenly become smog expemt and can be bought dirt cheap. As much as I would like to see what I consider to be 'art cars' or collecter cars (there are even some american cars on my list) continue to be driven around and restored, i think there are a huge number of cars that would be included in that rolling exemtion that would just end up dunping more and more garbage into the air.

Just my 2 cents........

Glad I got me a '73

Emission laws didn't go into effect in CA until 1975/76. Hope they don't mandate aftermarket catalytic converters next...

Actually, emissions laws went into effect in 1965 in California, and 1968 for the rest of the country. There was a significant decrease in allowed emissions in California for the 1975 model year, which forced nearly all of the manufacturers to install catalytic convertors. A few used thermal reactors instead (including Porsche on the 911), but quickly gave those up as the underhood temps cooked everything in sight in short order.

Your '73 had emissions equipment on it when new (the canister by the fuel tank, for one), just not much. The '75 and '76 914s have lots more, including catalytic convertors.

Govanator can test my teener....
If and when it fails.....
He replaces with a ....
'99 or newer BOXTER !!!
No charge, new for old ....
He's got the cash.... and
we all win !
If he's a little short...
He can borrow some ...
From Michael Moore ...
Otherwise .....
Go Pass a Budget or...
Something Meaningful ...

I'm definately staying out of the political (party/leaning/etc) side of this thread.

Clean air is something we all want. But targeting classic car owners isn't the way to do it. We're an easy whipping boy for politicians who want to take some symbolic stand, without alienating their big-business supporters.

Crack down on big industrial polluters, standardize gasoline and ban MTBE, stop the sale of smog credits. Get rid of "visual checks" - either a car passes or it doesn't. Let us use upgraded technology to reduce our own emissions. For cars that come it an 50% or less of max pollution output, let's give those owners a break on their registration fees. Give people an incentive to clean up their own vehicles. Give cars that are truly "classic" or "antique" plates with mileage limitations and exempt them from testing altogether.

I applaud your choice to follow your convictions, Fiid. I guess I see it as tilting at windmills, but I admire that you stand up for what you believe in.

-Rusty

Here's the response my State Senator sent me....

Thank you for your e-mail and I am in strong agreement that Assembly Bill
2683 is a bad bill. As Vice Chairman of the Senate Transportation
Committee, I have always opposed all such bills. I voted NO on Assembly
Bill 2683 on June 29th in the Senate Transportation Committee.
Unfortunately, however, the bill passed out of the committee. Be assured
that I will continue to fight against this bill on the Senate Floor.
Take care,
Tom McClintock

If California wants to get rid of polution (in general), they should get rid of the illegal immigrants, like the ones whose diet consists of refried beans and spices and who throw their used toliet paper in the trash instead of the toliet, and thoese who rob the american hospital, welfare, and school systems by crying minority racisum but refuse to learn the english language or become a Legal American citizen.

Rant off. I think I will get beat for this one.

No argument from me....

My Gramps got off the boat with NO English, learned to speak it and went in the Army to get his citizenship....was gassed in the WWI trenches for his efforts....eventually died from the associated lung injuries.

Hey Mike

Although my gramps was a Brit and in the English army he died the exact same way. That was back in the mid '30's...just a tad before my time.

Not from me, you won't.

Well if you think cali is wacked check this out.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/040310.htm

NAFTA only helps the rich, Ethyl Corp are corporate American scumbags and their lawyers are part of the reason I think of most lawyers as lower lifeforms.

If I thought sticking a cat converter on my teen would benefit the environment, you wouldn't have to make me do it, I would gladly fork over a hundred bucks and weld one in. But with MMT in our gas, burning out the cat, why bother.

There is the slight problem that most of california's agriculture is held up by illegal immigrants. Now - I agree that their being illegal is a crock - we either ought to kick them out - or find a way to make them legal. An industry depending on illegal staffers - isn't really very smart.

Every time I get in a car there is at least one fucknut LEGAL CITIZEN that tries to kill me with a oversize pickup truck (usually used to compensate for a microscopic penis), and afterwards usually decides that it is my fault. These people usually communicate this with the finger or the international sign for masterbation. These people cause far more of a problem than anyone shitting in a trash can, and IMHO should be kicked out first. Death is worst than smelly trash cans in my book.

Ah gimme a break.....

OK...."guest worker" programs....used to be callled "Braceros" if I recall from the '50s.....let the pickers come over the border and then when the season is over, they get bussed back by the same guy that brought them over.

Geeez, just like illegal boooze, make it legal and tax it and regulate it....not fucking rocket science.....

Tossing toilet papar shit in the basket.....ever have a cess pool or a septic tank? Most of them will not tolerate toilet paper....so ya toss it in the can.....

Old story about the Irish....who were dumb as dirt...BTW....I BE IRISH, with a bit of German and Greek.....

The new immigrant Irish didn't know what toilets were.....they saw them and assumed they were a good place to peel potatoes.....work the issue from there......

I have 1 stipulation before re-instituting the braceros system:

If you are a foriegn worker on that kind of visa, and you happen to have children in this country, they are not automatically US citizens.

My mother and my wife are both legal immigrants. Most legal immigrants do not like the illegal immigrants.

And how does this have to do with SMOG?

i think Toast said something like that all the illegal hispanic people eat a lot of beans and the unavoidable congestion adds to the SMOG problem in kalifornia ...

or something along those lines,
Andy

"Thank God for Texas" my ass!! Somebody in this forum said "keep 914 club politics and religion free" Amen to that brother cause I've just about had enough of the political bullshit I've seen around here lately. What a bunch of loosers. I come here for Tech advice and that's it. There's plenty of other web sites for your politics: Try "nazi's on crack" or "I can barely make it on a million dollars a year.com"
My favorite bumper sticker when I suffered a few years of hell in Dallas said simply "seceed" in the form of a texas rag ...er I mean flag. And I wish they had. Gen. Sherman said it best, "If I owned both hell and texas, I'd live in hell and rent out texas"
If they had seceeded we wouldn't have the lying, coke head, alcoholic, AWOL, priveliged, demon seed moron we've got in the white house that we do now and and his Haliburton dick sucking friend, chaneyy. NEARLY ONE THOUSAND DEAD GI'S IN IRAQ. EIGHT HUNDRED AND SIXTY SOME AS OF TODAY! And for what? Oil??? Isreal??? Weapons of mass destruction that don't even exist??? Get a fucking clue!!!
The only way they're gonna win the next election is if they stroke the supreme court a little harder or if Diebold (big republican supporter) inserts more of their crooked voting machines in a few more states.
If you think we're on the right track with these wacked out nazi, right wing psudo-religious ass holes YOU FUCKING NEED THEOROPY.
This club is about 914's get it? If your rubber bumpered POS does not pass emissions testing, spend some money and hire a FUCKING MECHANIC! Or buy a '73 or move to a different state or learn how to fix your shit webers or buy a 998. Quit your Whinning.