OK not actually but pratically called me stupid...and maybe I am, hence this thread and my willingness to be more open minded.
Call vendor (we'll just call them vendor A) and ask opinon regarding restoration, engine rebuild, bodywork, suspension, etc.
I tell him I have a 75' 2L, with a clock showing 62K but has a broken speedo cable, the previous owner put dual webers on w/o changing cam, and I want to back date the bumpers to 70-73 bumpers and rebuild the engine with a carb cam.
He said I would be crazy to not put the fuel injection back on and keep it stock as possible and NOT back date the bumpers. He didn't even want me to repaint it if I could deal with the two small dents I have in the p door and the d side front fender.
Said I shouldn't crack open the engine with only 62k miles...he didn't even want the engine to come out to the car actually.
I say I can keep all the stuff and put it back some day. He said I would end up with big holes in the trunks from cutting the bumper stuff off.
What's everyone else think?
Full Version: Aftermarket vendor called me stupid...what do you think?
It's your car, do with it what you will. Obviously you don't care about originality or I should say care about showing it as an original car. That vendor was actually NOT trying to take your money so it sounds like he's at the very least isn't trying to sell you something. He sounds reasonable to me but I wouldn't call your stupid for wanting to modify YOUR car the way you see fit.
Opinions are only opinions.
I think he is just telling you that with all original cars becoming harder to find, you should keep it original to preserve your investment. Of course, it's your car... do as you wish.
QUOTE(kconway @ Jan 3 2012, 04:33 PM) 
It's your car, do with it what you will. Obviously you don't care about originality or I should say care about showing it as an original car. That vendor was actually NOT trying to take your money so it sounds like he's at the very least isn't trying to sell you something. He sounds reasonable to me but I wouldn't call your stupid for wanting to modify YOUR car the way you see fit.
Maybe stupid is a little strong...but I might not be wise to modify it...that's why I'm asking opionons.
The vendor A was upfront and said they would tell me what to do even if I didn't like it...and they weren't trying to up sell me...I already had my cart foll of goodies that I would not need.
The biggest issue, here is where stupid comes in, is that they said I would be ruining the value of the car (especially if I cut the bumpers off). A low mile 75', original with only one repaint would be about $19,500. If i did what I wanted, even with a killer paint job would be half that at best.
I know $19.5k is a little optimistic but I don't want to do the wrong thing and be sorry later
it actually sounds like he is giving you good advice from a car as an investment perspective... All of his recommendations are expert sound recommendations to give to a customer
however its your car
do as you please.
however its your car
do as you please.
QUOTE(brant @ Jan 3 2012, 04:42 PM)
it actually sounds like he is giving you good advice from a car as an investment perspective... All of his recommendations are expert sound recommendations to give to a customer
however its your car
do as you please.
That's what I'm afraid of...I'm so in denial
I really wantied to back date the ugly fed bumpers.
back date them if you want to
I say do what you want.....
its not stupid to build it the way you like it.
I say do what you want.....
its not stupid to build it the way you like it.
As far as the Dents & Paint - you should look into a Paintless Dent-Removal Company, they can work wonders.
As far as Vendor A, it sounds like something that would come from the mouth of Vendor AA ( he's watching this Thread at this very Moment)
As far as Vendor A, it sounds like something that would come from the mouth of Vendor AA ( he's watching this Thread at this very Moment)
Sound advice really... If your mileage is even close to reality you have a low mileage car. Not painting it, simply doing paintless dent repair to correct the cosmetics makes it a 'preservation' car. Excellent preservation cars are more valuable than excellent restoration cars in a lot of minds.
You have very little you need to do to put it back to stock. I see his point. However, you must also consider that if you have a vision for the car, you should start with the best example you can find. By taking a low-mileage preservation car out of the equation, you make the other ones more valuable and you get the car you want.
By the way, there is nothing you want to do that you shouldn't attempt yourself...
You have very little you need to do to put it back to stock. I see his point. However, you must also consider that if you have a vision for the car, you should start with the best example you can find. By taking a low-mileage preservation car out of the equation, you make the other ones more valuable and you get the car you want.
By the way, there is nothing you want to do that you shouldn't attempt yourself...
QUOTE(brant @ Jan 3 2012, 04:49 PM)
back date them if you want to
I say do what you want.....
its not stupid to build it the way you like it.
I agree do what you want, There are two classes in the car hobby, Total Originality like it was the day it left the dealer show room and then there is the custom modifiers that up date, change things and create something unique to their own liking. I have no problem with either group. I would say most of the cars owned in this forum group are not show room stock and the nicest ones have been converted to six's with flares. I would love to go in that direction some day, but that's just me.
these cars are worth less than it costs to buy one and restore it.
most cars are worth less than it costs to buy one and restore it.
that said - a near mint car should not be used for a conversion - IMHO.
jim
most cars are worth less than it costs to buy one and restore it.
that said - a near mint car should not be used for a conversion - IMHO.
jim
QUOTE(brant @ Jan 3 2012, 04:42 PM)
it actually sounds like he is giving you good advice from a car as an investment perspective... All of his recommendations are expert sound recommendations to give to a customer
however its your car
do as you please.
I am straddling both sides of the same fence. I have a a really nice '75 1.8, albeit with 130k, but in VERY good original condition. It needs a little rust work and paint to be a great survivor car. I also have a set of flares, early bumpers, everything to convert to 5 lugs, including 8 Fuchs. Given that '75 1.8s are probably the least valuable 914, I am very tempted to do all of the above. However, I tracked down the original owner about a week ago and called him up. He told me a bunch of great stories about how it was his first car, how be bought it while he was a cadet at the Air Force Academy and kept if for years as he was stationed all around the country and finally sold it in the early '90s because he didn't have room for it and didn't want to see it rust away in his driveway in MN. Kinda makes me want to preserve it and find another car to mod.
First..... 
Pro's & Con's to what you want to do....but it's your car & your checkbook!
I think that his/her input was based upon it ostensibly being a pristine very low mileage survivor in original paint (if it indeed has never been repainted), which are very few & far between nowadays, and command a price/value premium in the marketplace. At 36-37 years old, that's only an average of about 1700 miles/yr - or long period(s0 time just sitting undriven!
However, before you take the "low mile survivor" route too far, you first need to be able to document from the service records/etc. back to day one `75 (or Fall 74) when first sold, that the odometer hasn't turned-over nor been reset. Unfortunately with P-cars from that era, the 5 digit odometer "lies" because you generally cannot tell whether a car has gone 99,999 or less - or if it's been 100k, 200k, 300k or more (less than average 15k/yr - say at even 2/3's of 10k/yr would be 360-370k now on a 75).
So first research your records that you got with the 914 if a new purchase, or that you've hopefully saved if you bought it new, and try to determine if it's really a 62k mile car, and also look at wear on things like gas pedal, carpets & seats, etc. to see if it LOOKS like it's really a low mileage car - &/or if it has had the interior redone, gas pedal changed for a new one, etc. - or has excessive wear.
I've looked at several other 73-74 914-2.0s over the past 1-2 years as a more cost effective alternative to restoring/repairing my 73 2L, and most were not truly at the stated mileage by condition alone, nor could they be documented. They're just few & far between & most owners go by what the last owner said when selling - whether mistakenly or intentionally wrong.
Also get a Certificate of Authenticity (COA) from Porsche/PCNA to make sure that it's engine (and transaxle) numbers match what is in the 914 now - vs. what the Porsche "Kardex" build records on microfilm/digiat at PCNA say they are/were. A non-numbers matching car with a swapped engine or rebuilt 2.0 from a 1.8 OE will not be worth as much.
If it's only the dents, then you can get a paintless dent repair shop to repair it by massaging it out (or get the PDR tools & do it yourself), then if it has some chips & scratches you can get those airbrushed by a quality resto shop to match the existing paint.
As for the back-dated bumpers - well you wouldn't do it on a low mile survivor by cutting into the body shell - because you don't want anything non-reversible to sell it for the premium here. Talk to Scarlet75/Andy on here, as he just did his 75 1.8 & I'm pretty sure he didn't cut anything on the body panels to do it. If it's not really a low mileage survivor & you repaint ti, then just do a good job on it & repaint it properly.
As for the EFI - folks usually change them out for a carb system because either they cannot get the EFI to work & don't have the money &/or mechanic with expertise nearby; or else for more power (but a 2056 big bore 2L can still get 110-125+/- HP with the D-jet EFI & "look stock"). Usually it's the "I can't get it to work" reason, but IMHO the EFI is a better set-up & you don't need to screw with sync-ing carbs, which was a major motivator for my buying my 73 914-2.0 in Dec `75! A pristine survivor is more valuable with the original engine & EFI, transaxle, etc. - with replacement & maintenance/rebuilds as necessary & appropriate.
Most CW (Concours Weenie) future buyers of your 75 - if a survivor, would want it to qualify for the PCA's & other concours event sponsors' rules that a preservation or survivor class car have all original parts on them, be unmodified (e.g.: no carbs on a 914), & that 80% of the paint is still original. Otherwise they go up against fully restored cars in another class in most cases.
If you decide to take it back to EFI, then Brad Mayeur in Peoria IL - sorta across the Big Muddy from you - knows 914s well & can surely get it sorted out for you & probably can find the "missing" EFI parts as well.
So if it all checks out as a truly well kept low mileage survivor, then you should probably weigh the options of modifying it, or looking for a less pristine & higher mileage non-survivor 914 to do your hi-performance mods on, and maybe keep it as your show car (then you'd be twin-teener owner! ); or sell it for better money now to fund the hot-rod-914 project & car you really want.
Of course it's YOUR car & YOUR money - so you can certainly do what YOU want with it either way, but make it a well informed decision, since you could be leaving $1000s in value "on the table" by modifying a true & documented low mileage 914 survivor.
I'm guessing that the "vendor's" enthusiasm about hearing of a low mileage original 914 got the better of him/her
- and said something like: "...you'd be crazy to...." - which unfortunately is a symptom of this classic car & 914 crazy disease we all have!
The Originality & History Forum topics on here can give you guidance on the survivor aspects, while the Garage Forums have the mod stuff.
FYI - this is one of my SoCal area buddy's 71 914/4 1.7L that he's owned since new with <61k miles, still wearing original paint that he had airbrushed in matching Bahia Red paint where it had a few usage chips & a stucco scrape he did on the garage wall - maybe 2-3% overall repainted/touched & perfectly blended, the carpets & upholstery are still all original. The Rosewood dash face, turned aluminum threshold plates, hood badge, & Western Wheels were put on by the original dealer for a buyer who backed out, before my buddy bought it new in `71. He has since replaced the rocker covers, put in new Coco mats, added the combo fuel/temp gauge from a 914-6 & a modern disc player into the glovebox with new speakers in the footwell boxes, rechromed F bumper with the Lic. plate mounting holes welded up - but not much else, and he saved the original stuff.
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
This is to show you what a comparable age & mileage 914 survivor should look like to have the highest value (the dash, wheels, F bumber, etc. might be removed & changed back to OE by a hard core CW). Hope this helps in your quest for answers.
Good Luck on your Quest!
Tom
///////
Pro's & Con's to what you want to do....but it's your car & your checkbook!
I think that his/her input was based upon it ostensibly being a pristine very low mileage survivor in original paint (if it indeed has never been repainted), which are very few & far between nowadays, and command a price/value premium in the marketplace. At 36-37 years old, that's only an average of about 1700 miles/yr - or long period(s0 time just sitting undriven!
However, before you take the "low mile survivor" route too far, you first need to be able to document from the service records/etc. back to day one `75 (or Fall 74) when first sold, that the odometer hasn't turned-over nor been reset. Unfortunately with P-cars from that era, the 5 digit odometer "lies" because you generally cannot tell whether a car has gone 99,999 or less - or if it's been 100k, 200k, 300k or more (less than average 15k/yr - say at even 2/3's of 10k/yr would be 360-370k now on a 75).
So first research your records that you got with the 914 if a new purchase, or that you've hopefully saved if you bought it new, and try to determine if it's really a 62k mile car, and also look at wear on things like gas pedal, carpets & seats, etc. to see if it LOOKS like it's really a low mileage car - &/or if it has had the interior redone, gas pedal changed for a new one, etc. - or has excessive wear.
I've looked at several other 73-74 914-2.0s over the past 1-2 years as a more cost effective alternative to restoring/repairing my 73 2L, and most were not truly at the stated mileage by condition alone, nor could they be documented. They're just few & far between & most owners go by what the last owner said when selling - whether mistakenly or intentionally wrong.
Also get a Certificate of Authenticity (COA) from Porsche/PCNA to make sure that it's engine (and transaxle) numbers match what is in the 914 now - vs. what the Porsche "Kardex" build records on microfilm/digiat at PCNA say they are/were. A non-numbers matching car with a swapped engine or rebuilt 2.0 from a 1.8 OE will not be worth as much.
If it's only the dents, then you can get a paintless dent repair shop to repair it by massaging it out (or get the PDR tools & do it yourself), then if it has some chips & scratches you can get those airbrushed by a quality resto shop to match the existing paint.
As for the back-dated bumpers - well you wouldn't do it on a low mile survivor by cutting into the body shell - because you don't want anything non-reversible to sell it for the premium here. Talk to Scarlet75/Andy on here, as he just did his 75 1.8 & I'm pretty sure he didn't cut anything on the body panels to do it. If it's not really a low mileage survivor & you repaint ti, then just do a good job on it & repaint it properly.
As for the EFI - folks usually change them out for a carb system because either they cannot get the EFI to work & don't have the money &/or mechanic with expertise nearby; or else for more power (but a 2056 big bore 2L can still get 110-125+/- HP with the D-jet EFI & "look stock"). Usually it's the "I can't get it to work" reason, but IMHO the EFI is a better set-up & you don't need to screw with sync-ing carbs, which was a major motivator for my buying my 73 914-2.0 in Dec `75! A pristine survivor is more valuable with the original engine & EFI, transaxle, etc. - with replacement & maintenance/rebuilds as necessary & appropriate.
Most CW (Concours Weenie) future buyers of your 75 - if a survivor, would want it to qualify for the PCA's & other concours event sponsors' rules that a preservation or survivor class car have all original parts on them, be unmodified (e.g.: no carbs on a 914), & that 80% of the paint is still original. Otherwise they go up against fully restored cars in another class in most cases.
If you decide to take it back to EFI, then Brad Mayeur in Peoria IL - sorta across the Big Muddy from you - knows 914s well & can surely get it sorted out for you & probably can find the "missing" EFI parts as well.
So if it all checks out as a truly well kept low mileage survivor, then you should probably weigh the options of modifying it, or looking for a less pristine & higher mileage non-survivor 914 to do your hi-performance mods on, and maybe keep it as your show car (then you'd be twin-teener owner!
); or sell it for better money now to fund the hot-rod-914 project & car you really want.Of course it's YOUR car & YOUR money - so you can certainly do what YOU want with it either way, but make it a well informed decision, since you could be leaving $1000s in value "on the table" by modifying a true & documented low mileage 914 survivor.
I'm guessing that the "vendor's" enthusiasm about hearing of a low mileage original 914 got the better of him/her
- and said something like: "...you'd be crazy to...." - which unfortunately is a symptom of this classic car & 914 crazy disease we all have! The Originality & History Forum topics on here can give you guidance on the survivor aspects, while the Garage Forums have the mod stuff.
FYI - this is one of my SoCal area buddy's 71 914/4 1.7L that he's owned since new with <61k miles, still wearing original paint that he had airbrushed in matching Bahia Red paint where it had a few usage chips & a stucco scrape he did on the garage wall - maybe 2-3% overall repainted/touched & perfectly blended, the carpets & upholstery are still all original. The Rosewood dash face, turned aluminum threshold plates, hood badge, & Western Wheels were put on by the original dealer for a buyer who backed out, before my buddy bought it new in `71. He has since replaced the rocker covers, put in new Coco mats, added the combo fuel/temp gauge from a 914-6 & a modern disc player into the glovebox with new speakers in the footwell boxes, rechromed F bumper with the Lic. plate mounting holes welded up - but not much else, and he saved the original stuff.
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
This is to show you what a comparable age & mileage 914 survivor should look like to have the highest value (the dash, wheels, F bumber, etc. might be removed & changed back to OE by a hard core CW). Hope this helps in your quest for answers.
Good Luck on your Quest!
Tom
///////
Here is my take on this; It is your car, do what you would be most happy with. But keeping in mind, iIf you have any idea of selling it some day, think twice about what mods you do, and try to keep all of the original parts for a future owner to convert it back later. It could make a huge difference in the selling price.
Tom
Tom
I agree with AA, but I wish them luck in there quest to keep these cars stock. I wanted lots of HP, big brakes etc. I did not want to modify a real 914-6, so i trashed a 75. I put on fiberglass bumpers steel flairs, 3.2, etc... It's funny that they sell the steel flairs, but want us to keep our cars stock. In the past George made the comment to only install flairs or install a body kit if the car is already trashed. I agree with him, but how trashed is trashed?
QUOTE(carr914 @ Jan 3 2012, 04:54 PM)
As far as the Dents & Paint - you should look into a Paintless Dent-Removal Company, they can work wonders.
As far as Vendor A, it sounds like something that would come from the mouth of Vendor AA ( he's watching this Thread at this very Moment)
I hope he didn't take offense to my catchy thread title...I really want to get as many opionons as I can.
I was dead set on making this car what I wanted it to be...but I do understand that it is only original once...and soo many 914's just have rotted away, or were hacked up with scarry mods...even when new by dealers installing aftermarket A/C.
I need as much input as I can b/c on one hand; I want to make a very nice 914...the way I could not afford to back when I was a kid in 1977. on the other I can certainly appreciate not devaluing the car with unreversable mods.
I would have to say you need to answer the questions:
Did you buy it as an investment and want to get your money out of it one day?
Did you buy it to build and enjoy the building and driving?
I've owned mine for 31 years and I bought it from the original owner. I get great
pleasure from working on her and driving her. When I can't get in and out on her and work on her, that's when I will let her go.
Either way..... Enjoy while you can
Did you buy it as an investment and want to get your money out of it one day?
Did you buy it to build and enjoy the building and driving?
I've owned mine for 31 years and I bought it from the original owner. I get great
pleasure from working on her and driving her. When I can't get in and out on her and work on her, that's when I will let her go.
Either way..... Enjoy while you can
another thing ...
the nicest cars to hit the classifieds here have run between $15k and $30k.
there is a beauty here right now for $21k.
it is easy to drop $10k on these cars and not even touch body and paint.
also ...
these cars either need very minor rust repair - or tons of rust repair. so doing a conversion using a nice car will keep your rust repair budget low and in fact will probably save you money in the long run.
i'm curious - what is your complete budget for parts and labor?
the nicest cars to hit the classifieds here have run between $15k and $30k.
there is a beauty here right now for $21k.
it is easy to drop $10k on these cars and not even touch body and paint.
also ...
these cars either need very minor rust repair - or tons of rust repair. so doing a conversion using a nice car will keep your rust repair budget low and in fact will probably save you money in the long run.
i'm curious - what is your complete budget for parts and labor?
Part of my original post was so George could see it ( he was lurking)
But here's my 2 cents - it may be original, but it is a 75. It's your car so do what you want. There is no guarantee that these cars will become the next 356 or early 911 in terms of value - actually I have seen some 356's fairly cheap lately. $19,500 for a 75, not any time soon.
But here's my 2 cents - it may be original, but it is a 75. It's your car so do what you want. There is no guarantee that these cars will become the next 356 or early 911 in terms of value - actually I have seen some 356's fairly cheap lately. $19,500 for a 75, not any time soon.
QUOTE(carr914 @ Jan 3 2012, 06:34 PM)
Part of my original post was so George could see it ( he was lurking)
But here's my 2 cents - it may be original, but it is a 75. It's your car so do what you want. There is no guarantee that these cars will become the next 356 or early 911 in terms of value - actually I have seen some 356's fairly cheap lately. $19,500 for a 75, not any time soon.
Who cares what a car is worth. If all it is to you is an investment don't bother wasting your time as you are already over your head with a '75. Do what you will enjoy with no regret. You likely will not be able to get near what you put into it out of it but you will get your moneys worth of enjoyment.
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jan 3 2012, 05:34 PM)
First.....
Thanks for the welcome...I've been away from 914's for awhile but have owned 7...my 1st was a daily driver from 77'-88'
Pro's & Con's to what you want to do....but it's your car & your checkbook!
I think that his/her input was based upon it ostensibly being a pristine very low mileage survivor in original paint (if it indeed has never been repainted), which are very few & far between nowadays, and command a price/value premium in the marketplace. At 36-37 years old, that's only an average of about 1700 miles/yr - or long period(s0 time just sitting undriven!
I wouldn't say it's pristine...but I do know from my other 914's that this one has original rivots in the rocker panels, and nearly every bolt/screw (except service items) look original. I get your point about if it has indeed not been repainted...I guess I will find out when I did a little deeper and get it ready for painting
However, before you take the "low mile survivor" route too far, you first need to be able to document from the service records/etc. back to day one `75 (or Fall 74) when first sold, that the odometer hasn't turned-over nor been reset. Unfortunately with P-cars from that era, the 5 digit odometer "lies" because you generally cannot tell whether a car has gone 99,999 or less - or if it's been 100k, 200k, 300k or more (less than average 15k/yr - say at even 2/3's of 10k/yr would be 360-370k now on a 75).
I do have some records. I was able to contact the 2nd owner (who had it for 29 years) and I do have the name/address of the 1st owner as filled in on the maintenance book. I'm confident that the odo has not rolled, but not sure how long the speedo cable has been broke
So first research your records that you got with the 914 if a new purchase, or that you've hopefully saved if you bought it new, and try to determine if it's really a 62k mile car, and also look at wear on things like gas pedal, carpets & seats, etc. to see if it LOOKS like it's really a low mileage car - &/or if it has had the interior redone, gas pedal changed for a new one, etc. - or has excessive wear.
the wear items all look good, it has a set of Michelin XZX's (early 90's era) on it that look brand new, still have the tits on the sidewalls
I've looked at several other 73-74 914-2.0s over the past 1-2 years as a more cost effective alternative to restoring/repairing my 73 2L, and most were not truly at the stated mileage by condition alone, nor could they be documented. They're just few & far between & most owners go by what the last owner said when selling - whether mistakenly or intentionally wrong.
I was looking for a 914 to create a good restored car that I could do what I wanted with...when I found this one, I could not pass it up. probably not the right candidate to pull apart and redo...to your point about few and faw between...I couldn't pass this up
Also get a Certificate of Authenticity (COA) from Porsche/PCNA to make sure that it's engine (and transaxle) numbers match what is in the 914 now - vs. what the Porsche "Kardex" build records on microfilm/digiat at PCNA say they are/were. A non-numbers matching car with a swapped engine or rebuilt 2.0 from a 1.8 OE will not be worth as much.
good advice, i was just going by the published #'s. I know they don't have vin #'s on engines to actually have matching #'s like American muslce cars do, here are the numbers on the engine GC000243, the VIN is 4752900696, and it was built 8/74
If it's only the dents, then you can get a paintless dent repair shop to repair it by massaging it out (or get the PDR tools & do it yourself), then if it has some chips & scratches you can get those airbrushed by a quality resto shop to match the existing paint.
Ther are 2 small dents in the drivers door near the bottom that are about an 1/8" deep about 2" apart, no broke paint, the other is on the other side, at the bottom of the front fender that is just a bad scrape about 2" on the fender and about 4" on the door...that broke the paint and is covered up by hand brushed on touch up paint. there is a chip on the hood that has black paint under it...leading me to think the hood was painted at some point. all the dent look like they happened from being stuck in the corner of the garage for years
As for the back-dated bumpers - well you wouldn't do it on a low mile survivor by cutting into the body shell - because you don't want anything non-reversible to sell it for the premium here. Talk to Scarlet75/Andy on here, as he just did his 75 1.8 & I'm pretty sure he didn't cut anything on the body panels to do it. If it's not really a low mileage survivor & you repaint ti, then just do a good job on it & repaint it properly.
I was thinking you could back date w/o doing permenent damage...the fed bumpers were actually a modification by the factory anyway
As for the EFI - folks usually change them out for a carb system because either they cannot get the EFI to work & don't have the money &/or mechanic with expertise nearby; or else for more power (but a 2056 big bore 2L can still get 110-125+/- HP with the D-jet EFI & "look stock"). Usually it's the "I can't get it to work" reason, but IMHO the EFI is a better set-up & you don't need to screw with sync-ing carbs, which was a major motivator for my buying my 73 914-2.0 in Dec `75! A pristine survivor is more valuable with the original engine & EFI, transaxle, etc. - with replacement & maintenance/rebuilds as necessary & appropriate.
I'm conserned about making the EFI work...I do have the original system in a box. I can appriciate not having to keep the dual carbs tuned. I'm not so much conserned about the HP, just want it to be strong enough. Not going to AutoX or track it...I have a car I do track events with that has about 5x HP the 75' 2L 914 has. I want to be able to do some PCA stuff, a few casual car shows (not interested in having a 1000 point stock original to compete with)
Most CW (Concours Weenie) future buyers of your 75 - if a survivor, would want it to qualify for the PCA's & other concours event sponsors' rules that a preservation or survivor class car have all original parts on them, be unmodified (e.g.: no carbs on a 914), & that 80% of the paint is still original. Otherwise they go up against fully restored cars in another class in most cases.
that's probably the only way vendor A's value of $19.5K would happen...I don't want a car that I have to put in a wrapper, take it out for a show a couple times a year and then wrap it back up
If you decide to take it back to EFI, then Brad Mayeur in Peoria IL - sorta across the Big Muddy from you - knows 914s well & can surely get it sorted out for you & probably can find the "missing" EFI parts as well.
Cool
So if it all checks out as a truly well kept low mileage survivor, then you should probably weigh the options of modifying it, or looking for a less pristine & higher mileage non-survivor 914 to do your hi-performance mods on, and maybe keep it as your show car (then you'd be twin-teener owner!
); or sell it for better money now to fund the hot-rod-914 project & car you really want.I do have a really rough 74' that has fabricated (non-914/6) steel fender flares on it...it has been sitting outside for years...it apparently was in a front end collision and had a 73' front grafted on...not sure that is ever going to see pavement again...the fender flares and slope nose does look good though
Of course it's YOUR car & YOUR money - so you can certainly do what YOU want with it either way, but make it a well informed decision, since you could be leaving $1000s in value "on the table" by modifying a true & documented low mileage 914 survivor.
I do appreciate you taking the time to help guide me to a decision.
I'm guessing that the "vendor's" enthusiasm about hearing of a low mileage original 914 got the better of him/her
- and said something like: "...you'd be crazy to...." - which unfortunately is a symptom of this classic car & 914 crazy disease we all have! He actually said he was going to tell me what I should do and not what I wanted to hear...I was a little creative with my title wanting to get a lot on input and not skipped over with another "what would you do" thread
The Originality & History Forum topics on here can give you guidance on the survivor aspects, while the Garage Forums have the mod stuff.
Thanks again for your guidenss...looking forward to being back in the 914 area again.
FYI - this is one of my SoCal area buddy's 71 914/4 1.7L that he's owned since new with <61k miles, still wearing original paint that he had airbrushed in matching Bahia Red paint where it had a few usage chips & a stucco scrape he did on the garage wall - maybe 2-3% overall repainted/touched & perfectly blended, the carpets & upholstery are still all original. The Rosewood dash face, turned aluminum threshold plates, hood badge, & Western Wheels were put on by the original dealer for a buyer who backed out, before my buddy bought it new in `71. He has since replaced the rocker covers, put in new Coco mats, added the combo fuel/temp gauge from a 914-6 & a modern disc player into the glovebox with new speakers in the footwell boxes, rechromed F bumper with the Lic. plate mounting holes welded up - but not much else, and he saved the original stuff.
it does look schweeet and is very inspirational
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment
This is to show you what a comparable age & mileage 914 survivor should look like to have the highest value (the dash, wheels, F bumber, etc. might be removed & changed back to OE by a hard core CW). Hope this helps in your quest for answers.
This does help tremendously...this is what I want my 914 to be a great, clean, rust free, gook looking car, with power enough to live up to a good 2L
Good Luck on your Quest!
Tom
///////
My advise,
I agree that it is yours so do what you will. If you view this as an investment, then their advise was well put. If you want to make it what you want, then your opinion is all that matters. If your car is so nice that modifying it would be a travesty, sell it and buy one that would be a better candidate for customization (that is what I tend to do, so I am bias).
As for people to guide you and do top notch work, PLEASE look up Scotty B here on this forum. He is closer than Atlanta and will do award winning work with excellent communication. You wont feel like you are being called stupid
I agree that it is yours so do what you will. If you view this as an investment, then their advise was well put. If you want to make it what you want, then your opinion is all that matters. If your car is so nice that modifying it would be a travesty, sell it and buy one that would be a better candidate for customization (that is what I tend to do, so I am bias).
As for people to guide you and do top notch work, PLEASE look up Scotty B here on this forum. He is closer than Atlanta and will do award winning work with excellent communication. You wont feel like you are being called stupid
First off
Second: do what you want with your car. You spent the money not the asshat selling parts. If backdated bumpers are what you like, by all means stick to your guns! You are the person who will be driving and admiring the car. Chances are (with the exception of a total abomination build) others will enjoy the car as well. If you want a concourse, show queen or investment, you probably would have looked harder for a year that you liked the style of. My guess is you bought the car for a deal of your liking looking to build what you wanted. Stick to it with reason of not screwing it up or tearing it down to the point of living on jack stands until we see a "FS project car" ad...
Sorry to rant... But build what you love and drive the crap out of it!
Oh and here's one to you
Cheers
Second: do what you want with your car. You spent the money not the asshat selling parts. If backdated bumpers are what you like, by all means stick to your guns! You are the person who will be driving and admiring the car. Chances are (with the exception of a total abomination build) others will enjoy the car as well. If you want a concourse, show queen or investment, you probably would have looked harder for a year that you liked the style of. My guess is you bought the car for a deal of your liking looking to build what you wanted. Stick to it with reason of not screwing it up or tearing it down to the point of living on jack stands until we see a "FS project car" ad...
Sorry to rant... But build what you love and drive the crap out of it!
Oh and here's one to you
Cheers
QUOTE(jimkelly @ Jan 3 2012, 06:30 PM)
another thing ...
the nicest cars to hit the classifieds here have run between $15k and $30k.
there is a beauty here right now for $21k.
it is easy to drop $10k on these cars and not even touch body and paint.
also ...
these cars either need very minor rust repair - or tons of rust repair. so doing a conversion using a nice car will keep your rust repair budget low and in fact will probably save you money in the long run.
i'm curious - what is your complete budget for parts and labor?
At this point I don't have a budget...I just went through a resto of a 69 Camaro and it went 2x the budget...parts are expensive and they just don't fit right, which is very frustrating.
The 914 is in very good condition...this is my 7th one and I know where the rust should be...this car has just surface rust at the bottom of the door seams and that's about it.
The 914 won't be a resto b/c most of the parts will go back (I may fall victim to getting new carpet, mats, and stuff...but I don't think I need to) on the car. It needs to have a complete scrubbing of any possible rust...inside, out, and under and a nice paint job. If I choose to back date the bumpers...I've had new ones sitting since before I bought the car. I have a 73' 2L long block and a parts car.
If I ask myself will I ever sell the 69' Camaro...could be, maybe, don't know at this point. If I ask myself if I will ever sell the 914...well it will go in my Will before a want ad.
How do you make a 914 worth $20K? Start out with $50K
mark
mark
I have never thought of the 914 as an investment. If you have a dead stock, totally original, pristine, original paint, surgically clean 914-6 it might be considered an investment. Someone in Europe might pay big bucks (euros) for it. Otherwise back date those fugly bumpers, reinforce the body, install flairs, squeeze in a 3.6 and drive it like you stole it. These cars are about fun. (My .20 worth)
Cheers, Elliot
These cars are about fun. (My .20 worth)Cheers, Elliot
i have a '75, back date the bumpers!
not hard to do and you don't alter the that much. you drill 8 hole for the bumper bolts and trim off the lip on the front trunk edge and the side lips that hold the side of the bubs on.
do find and reinstall the f/i! you will appreciate it later over carbs, you will have start up and go ability and better fuel mileage and you will gain hp with current cam.
changing the cam means splitting the case and full disassembly and that will turn into a $$$$ pit "while you're in there",
the l-jet can be made to work on a 2L very well, search rootwerks and l-jet [i mention l-jet because the parts are cheap and available used and new, not high on the demand list]
not hard to do and you don't alter the that much. you drill 8 hole for the bumper bolts and trim off the lip on the front trunk edge and the side lips that hold the side of the bubs on.
do find and reinstall the f/i! you will appreciate it later over carbs, you will have start up and go ability and better fuel mileage and you will gain hp with current cam.
changing the cam means splitting the case and full disassembly and that will turn into a $$$$ pit "while you're in there",
the l-jet can be made to work on a 2L very well, search rootwerks and l-jet [i mention l-jet because the parts are cheap and available used and new, not high on the demand list]
QUOTE(aharder @ Jan 3 2012, 06:26 PM)
I would have to say you need to answer the questions:
Did you buy it as an investment and want to get your money out of it one day?
Did you buy it to build and enjoy the building and driving?
I've owned mine for 31 years and I bought it from the original owner. I get great
pleasure from working on her and driving her. When I can't get in and out on her and work on her, that's when I will let her go.
Either way..... Enjoy while you can
I've owned this car for 1.5 years but I've had a 914 for 34 years. I did not buy it as an investment but would like for it to hold it's value.
My goal was to build the 914 I never had when I was growing kids and a career. I didn't contemplate this delima of finding a car that may be to good to take a part.
There are plenty of us here that will talk with you without talking down to you so feel free to ask any questions. 
IMO the things you talk about " modding " on your car are ALL completely reversible, so IF you were to sell the car at a later date it wouldn't take the new owner too much effort to get it back to original, so do whatcha wanna do
BTW the "vendor" we all assume you are speaking about is notorious for this type of " personality " so don't take it personally
I solved the whole dilemma by having two. A bone stock unmolested 76 and a 73 converted and molested.
when I bought my factory six,I looked for a complete running car.I was not interested in originality,what I wanted was a running six cylinder car.It just so happened that the one I found was a factory six.I built it for me,to drive and have fun,I really never thought about what it would be worth.
Like you I bought the car of my youth,Iwatched them at Laguna Seca,on the street here in NorCal.
If someone wanted to give you 19.5,take it.
As a matter of fact,you should put it on Ebay and see what the market is,put a 19.5 reserve on it.
No harm no foul
Then, do the car of your dreams,whether it that 75 or another.
Me,I am thinking of doing a 916 clone complete with fixed hardtop,on my six!
Like you I bought the car of my youth,Iwatched them at Laguna Seca,on the street here in NorCal.
If someone wanted to give you 19.5,take it.
As a matter of fact,you should put it on Ebay and see what the market is,put a 19.5 reserve on it.
No harm no foul
Then, do the car of your dreams,whether it that 75 or another.
Me,I am thinking of doing a 916 clone complete with fixed hardtop,on my six!
To each his own. I'm old school & lazy. I like stock.
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jan 3 2012, 05:34 PM)
...
If you decide to take it back to EFI, then Brad Mayeur in Peoria IL - sorta across the Big Muddy from you - knows 914s well & can surely get it sorted out for you & probably can find the "missing" EFI parts as well.
...Tom
///////
That name sounded familiar, so I did a quick dig and found a Brad Mayeur business card I had got at some point. Not sure where I got it, probably have had it for 10 years, but I was able to prduce it within 2 minutes of looking.
It's your car, spend where you want. But with that being said, I like the sound of carbs, but with a stock cam it will never run quite right. It would be easier to put fuel injection back on. You could allways go back and recoupe the purchase if you change your mind. I'm back dating my bumpers, but that's just me. I could always go back.
Put the car in drivable condition and enjoy it!
Put the car in drivable condition and enjoy it!
my dad told me something when i was younger and i always use this approach. he told me "build the car for you. not the next guy".
Then again, think about the car. Should it be saved from modification because its rare? Would you like your grandchildren to drive an original and understand what it would have been like to tool around in an underpowered go cart?
QUOTE(PanelBilly @ Jan 3 2012, 10:08 PM)
Then again, think about the car. Should it be saved from modification because its rare? Would you like your grandchildren to drive an original and understand what it would have been like to tool around in an underpowered go cart?
On second thought, If you leave it stock, everyone will nit-pick every detail. You need to be prepared to explain why you did or didn't do repairs to someone else's standard. A modified car gets to be what it is and the non-owners can like it or not!
QUOTE(PanelBilly @ Jan 3 2012, 10:21 PM)
QUOTE(PanelBilly @ Jan 3 2012, 10:08 PM)
Then again, think about the car. Should it be saved from modification because its rare? Would you like your grandchildren to drive an original and understand what it would have been like to tool around in an underpowered go cart?
On second thought, If you leave it stock, everyone will nit-pick every detail. You need to be prepared to explain why you did or didn't do repairs to someone else's standard. A modified car gets to be what it is and the non-owners can like it or not!
if it needs new tires, put on better tires. if it needs new shocks, put on better shocks. if it needs new tie rods, put on turbo units. and so on.....who cares. its your car. unless it is a flawless museum piece. otherwise you might be less likely to drive it. and you wont mind if brake dust get on the inside of your wheels
We worked on a '73 2 liter last year that had less than 30,000 miles and hadn't been driven in 20 years. It was stored in a climate controlled garage nearly the entire time. After the work was done I told the owner he might get close to $25K for it. Driving it was the closest I've ever been to a new 914.
Another car we worked on last year was a '76 2 liter, also with low mileage. A couple things had been altered from stock, but nothing irreversible. That was a possible $19.5K car.
I think the biggest problem on both cars was the same thing - stuck brake caliper pistons. The cars weren't being driven enough to get the regular maintenance they needed.
We service plenty of nice 914s which aren't worth anywhere near those two special cars. But they are still clean, solid, mostly stock vehicles which the owners may drive 5000 miles a year or more. Some of those are late model cars with backdated bumpers, done professionally, and they look pretty nice! I see no reason to avoid backdating a late model 914 unless the car is a preservation class contender.
Another car we worked on last year was a '76 2 liter, also with low mileage. A couple things had been altered from stock, but nothing irreversible. That was a possible $19.5K car.
I think the biggest problem on both cars was the same thing - stuck brake caliper pistons. The cars weren't being driven enough to get the regular maintenance they needed.
We service plenty of nice 914s which aren't worth anywhere near those two special cars. But they are still clean, solid, mostly stock vehicles which the owners may drive 5000 miles a year or more. Some of those are late model cars with backdated bumpers, done professionally, and they look pretty nice! I see no reason to avoid backdating a late model 914 unless the car is a preservation class contender.
Excellence magazine's buyer's guide compiled by Porsche elder B. Anderson listed $14,600 as the highest 2011 value for a '75 914/4 with a 2.0L + 10% for certain attributes like low mileage and originality.
Currently, you've got that and my favorite 914 body color. But, I feel that $19,500 is an overvaluation and agree with Jim Kelly about expenditures on Porsches often exceeding resale receipts; I just simply squash these feelings believing that the joy and performance returns of driving an air-cooled Porsche roadster through any hilly and curvaceous countryside as often as I can will eternally remain worth every lost penny.
Currently, you've got that and my favorite 914 body color. But, I feel that $19,500 is an overvaluation and agree with Jim Kelly about expenditures on Porsches often exceeding resale receipts; I just simply squash these feelings believing that the joy and performance returns of driving an air-cooled Porsche roadster through any hilly and curvaceous countryside as often as I can will eternally remain worth every lost penny.
QUOTE(Elliot Cannon @ Jan 3 2012, 08:26 PM)
I have never thought of the 914 as an investment. If you have a dead stock, totally original, pristine, original paint, surgically clean 914-6 it might be considered an investment. Someone in Europe might pay big bucks (euros) for it. Otherwise back date those fugly bumpers, reinforce the body, install flairs, squeeze in a 3.6 and drive it like you stole it.
These cars are about fun. (My .20 worth)Cheers, Elliot
Yup.
1000%I will even donate some jigsaw/sawsall blades for your flair job.
I love my 914 - as well as many other cars on this site. But I love them for what they are right now. If you want to invest in a car, the list of potential cars is a mile long before you get to a 914-4 - maybe even 100 miles long.
Look at some of the fantastic restoration threads on this site - heck, look at some of the restorations done to well known/pedigreed 914-6 race cars - most have had extensive metal work done to them in the process (I think the Kremer car even has new front and rear clips). You can always put the car back if they become valuable some day. But until that monster raises it's head out of Loch Ness, have fun with the thing.
My daily driver Honda just hit 50k miles. It has never been in an accident, nothing has been touched other than tires - and they were replaced with the exact same make and model thet the car came with. The car looks and drives like new. Should I throw it into storage for my grand kids - just in case? It is a rare, fully loaded, but with no-sunroof version.....
QUOTE(Type 47 @ Jan 3 2012, 07:04 PM)
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jan 3 2012, 05:34 PM)
Also get a Certificate of Authenticity (COA) from Porsche/PCNA to make sure that it's engine (and transaxle) numbers match what is in the 914 now - vs. what the Porsche "Kardex" build records on microfilm/digiat at PCNA say they are/were. A non-numbers matching car with a swapped engine or rebuilt 2.0 from a 1.8 OE will not be worth as much.
good advice, i was just going by the published #'s. I know they don't have vin #'s on engines to actually have matching #'s like American muslce cars do, here are the numbers on the engine GC000243, the VIN is 4752900696, and it was built 8/74
Sorry I wasn't clear enough on that.
While they don't stamp the VIN on the drivetrain, Porsche/PCNA will have build records that show your motor's GC # & the transaxle no. (found stamped along the bottom center longitudinal rib of the case) would hopefully have a match with the Porsche Kardex.
PCNA will then use that info. to create a COA for you as a matching nos. P-car - same end result as your 70's muscle car example, just a different route. PCNA usually has the engine nos. but often o record of the transaxle # (they may ask you to email pix of the nos.). You can probably confirm the numbersmatching over the phone by reading them the nos., when you call the Porsche USA/NA 800 # to order it.
Also the PCA membership will save you about $20 off the COA fee IIRC, as well as 20% off dealer parts, the national & local monthly magazines, plus events & people - so worth $46/yr. IMHO.
Cheers!
Tom
///////
Perhaps we could start a 914 oversight committee that would enforce standards on what 914 owners can and can't do. We could ensure compliance by taxing 914 owners $1000 a year and hire beer drinking 914 compliance directors to drive around and inspect cars for unsatisfactory proliferation of rust, untasteful modifications (we will need a standards regulation manual, and a permanent committee to create and modify it), and provide protection for the good of 914 owners from themselves and the evil 99% (people who have bigger cars).
On second thought, do whatever you want with your 914!
That's the fun of it. Sure there's folks who have their ideas about what you should do, and we all need CWs and highly artistic customizers, but have a thick skin and keep your own dream alive.
On second thought, do whatever you want with your 914!
That's the fun of it. Sure there's folks who have their ideas about what you should do, and we all need CWs and highly artistic customizers, but have a thick skin and keep your own dream alive.
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jan 5 2012, 12:21 AM)
QUOTE(Type 47 @ Jan 3 2012, 07:04 PM)
QUOTE(Tom_T @ Jan 3 2012, 05:34 PM)
Also get a Certificate of Authenticity (COA) from Porsche/PCNA to make sure that it's engine (and transaxle) numbers match what is in the 914 now - vs. what the Porsche "Kardex" build records on microfilm/digiat at PCNA say they are/were. A non-numbers matching car with a swapped engine or rebuilt 2.0 from a 1.8 OE will not be worth as much.
good advice, i was just going by the published #'s. I know they don't have vin #'s on engines to actually have matching #'s like American muslce cars do, here are the numbers on the engine GC000243, the VIN is 4752900696, and it was built 8/74
Sorry I wasn't clear enough on that.
While they don't stamp the VIN on the drivetrain, Porsche/PCNA will have build records that show your motor's GC # & the transaxle no. (found stamped along the bottom center longitudinal rib of the case) would hopefully have a match with the Porsche Kardex.
PCNA will then use that info. to create a COA for you as a matching nos. P-car - same end result as your 70's muscle car example, just a different route. PCNA usually has the engine nos. but often o record of the transaxle # (they may ask you to email pix of the nos.). You can probably confirm the numbersmatching over the phone by reading them the nos., when you call the Porsche USA/NA 800 # to order it.
Also the PCA membership will save you about $20 off the COA fee IIRC, as well as 20% off dealer parts, the national & local monthly magazines, plus events & people - so worth $46/yr. IMHO.
Cheers!
Tom
///////
I wasn't aware you could get the #'s verified and it be "number matching" thanks.
as far as PCA membership goes...I wish I had joined when I bought my 1st 914...I would be a 34 year member instead of a 17n year member...that reminds me my renual is due this month.
I have read every word of each post and I have decided what to do.
I'm going to put the FI back on and get it running properly, then I'm going to take it out of the car and disasemble for painting.
While it's getting body work done I'm going to rebuild a 73' 2L long block I have. Any advise on that would be apreciated. Probably put the Webers on it with a cam, maybe some larger pistons...you guy tell me what you think. Wanting something that sounds good around 120 hp, idles good, etc.
Before the car leaves for paint, I will have removed the Fed bumbpers and cut off the tabs and drilled holes for the 70-72 era bumpers that will go back on.
It needs new rear springs & struts. I will also steam clean the transaxle and probably have the engine sheet metal powder coated depening on how they look.
That's the plan so far. Thanks for everyones input
I did think very much about the originality of the car but what I realized is that if I went that route it would always be just a mediocre stock 75 914 nit pick everywhere I went.
Thanks again and let me know about engine options
I'm going to put the FI back on and get it running properly, then I'm going to take it out of the car and disasemble for painting.
While it's getting body work done I'm going to rebuild a 73' 2L long block I have. Any advise on that would be apreciated. Probably put the Webers on it with a cam, maybe some larger pistons...you guy tell me what you think. Wanting something that sounds good around 120 hp, idles good, etc.
Before the car leaves for paint, I will have removed the Fed bumbpers and cut off the tabs and drilled holes for the 70-72 era bumpers that will go back on.
It needs new rear springs & struts. I will also steam clean the transaxle and probably have the engine sheet metal powder coated depening on how they look.
That's the plan so far. Thanks for everyones input
I did think very much about the originality of the car but what I realized is that if I went that route it would always be just a mediocre stock 75 914 nit pick everywhere I went.
Thanks again and let me know about engine options
QUOTE(Type 47 @ Jan 5 2012, 02:15 PM)
Before the car leaves for paint, I will have removed the Fed bumbpers and cut off the tabs and drilled holes for the 70-72 era bumpers that will go back on.
If you want to add the early front bumper reinforcements that weld in from the rear, we have a pattern to make them. Thanks to Scarlet75 for having us make a pair for his car.
If you going to go all-out, have Jake build you a Motor 
i'll buy those nasty ol' carbs off of you....
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