real 916 for sale, VIN 9142330017, Gemini Blue. pictures at

http://www.mykkb.de/porsche/

Dr. Hamley

Thanks for the pictures...do you have any interesting history on the car that you would like to share?


Does anyone know if the interior fabric is available...I like it !!!!

I'm playing the Lotto this weekend for sure...

Why does the shift knob show reverse under 5th? Did the 916's have a different trans?
The trip odometer shows 666. It's last drive must have been hell.

You beat me to both of those questions/comments Drew.

Are the fiberglass front/rear pieces and rockers missing or just not pictured? Those can be replaced, but I was just curious.

All parts are with the car and undamaged. I started to take them off for a paint job.

iirc - an adapted 915 tranny.

And the car is "a beast" so perhaps 666 is right afterall :-)

kim.

From the looks of the pics, I feel very sad. So basically what I am seeing is that someone is going to pay over 100 Grand for a stamped number? I just don't see anything different from our cars, sans the roof. Hmmm...

Christopher....

Hey Christopher,

Time to educate yourself

The 916 was supposed to be the most exclusive Porsche of it's day and only 11 were build (before Porsche decided the car would be too expensive to market and abandoned the production)

It has a modified 915 gearbox (renamed as a 916 gearbox) and the 210bhp 2.7 engine from the elusive '73 911 Carrera RS
And, like you already said, a welded on steel roof

Try to buy an other Porsche (or any other car) that is so rare for that amount!
Way outta my league though...

cheers,

Jeroen

I'm seeing weird things.

Like:

Front trunk floor has paint peeling off and blue overspray on parts that shouldnt be painted. The car appears to be white under the blue in the front.


But, I see yellow in the rear trunk. The rear decklid appears to have been replaced and painted (Revenna green in the trunck latch hole)

I also didnt know that they installed GT coolers/shrouds in the 916's.

His pics are much better this time than they where last time.

It wont bring 100k. (neither did the others) as far as I know NONE of them have actually sold for this number.

B

Gentlemen,

I appreciate Mr. Roberts exact observations and am happy to provide any detailed pictures that are requested. I will also check records and speak to previous owners should it be evident that anything was replaced on the car. To the best of my knowledge today that is not the case. But I will look into it and post any new developments here.
Although I generally don't discuss prices, multiple bids are well on the wrong side of $100k. The validation of theses bids are ongoing by a highly respected bankier to rule out any fake bidders.

Dr. Hamley

Notice the upper dash pad, is this specific to the 916?

I agree with the white in the front trunk and the yellow or green on the decklid and the rear light area.


It amazes me if this is the real deal how negleted things are for such a rare car.

didnt there used to be a roster of the the rare cars like the GTs and the 916's would this shed some light on this car?

I think it was in the AA catalogs or something.

I personally "hope" that you receive over 100K for it. It increases the value of cars I already have sitting around.

Porsche may have began with white chassis' like they currently do with all the race cars (GT3/GT3RS) which would explain the white under the blue in the front.

I'm happy to see a real GT cooler and shroud in the front. This is not negative in my eyes.

Keep us updated. If you could, have somebody shoot a pic from under the car in the rear. I have a 916 tranny disassembled and would like to see one complete.


B

this is supposed to be the private car of Dr. Mich. Piech and it was sold to Mr. Hopfe according to AA's catalog the color goes along with the vin blue mettalic

It does baffle me that the car was neglected.


B

AA's 916 shows a GT shroud but the front trunk is completely covered with carpet, I wonder if that is glue residue in the front trunk

It looks like it may have a windshield radio antenna too.

The glue is from the trunk carpet.

I love the interior. It screams 70's and bell bottoms. Doobie Brother's blaring from the 8 track. Saturday night fever sound track in the glove box..


B

yepp, it seems to be in a sad condition ...

the last one i saw a while ago went for some $80k or so and looked much better than this one. sure would boost the price if it was restored right ...

just my 2 cents,
Andy

PS.: the car was repainted at least once, not very good job tho, overspray on parts that could have been taken off easy (2 bolts!),
plus the rear lid appears to be replaced.

914 Serial tracking

I found this link and if this car checks out, it is one of 8, 2.7L 916 built in 1972!

Sounds rare to me, but I don't think I will plunk down $100K plus the $40-$50 more it would take to bring it back to concours.

Heck, you couldn't drive it!!

Jeff

Sorry.. I hate pop-ups. and anything with the name Lycos attached to it...


B

Notice the GT engine lid in the trunk and no vents on the dash fronts

I know all about the 916. I have been a Porsche nut for over 30 years. What I have always wondered is why a car that is basically the same as the others demands such a high price just becasue only a few were made. But that is just an opinion. At least the 904's, 906's 08's and recently the 959 had very different features that sets them appart and makes them very special. In fact I have a lot more respect and desire for a 914/6 GT.

I have a hard time with the reality of the 916 and 911 RS cars that people seem to think are made of Platinum or something. Yes they are cool, Freekin cool... But not really that much different. But again Opinion and some have a special need and love for these cars. I personally will only drive a Porsche Sports car, I love them a lot and have spent my whole life surronded by them.

But, What really gets me is someone posting pictures of a car like this that is way, way, way beond neglect and still playing it in the 100 Grand areana. I say fix it up first, then start asking. It its current condition I see only 10 grand worth of stuff!

But This is just me... I would be very impressed and excited if the car had already been restored. And then the 100 grand mark would not bother me as much.

It's all Good,

Christopher....

Where's Jerry Seinfeld when you need em, perfect car for him. Then maybe we could see it at car shows in the future.
The interior is soo cool! I still wonder what happened to the car that it is soo trashed!

What makes the 916 so special is that they were all prototypes for a upgraded 914/6 line that was cancelled. The cars were sold only to family and factory friends, never on the open market. They were also the fastest thing you could get from the factory at that time. They were not race cars like the 914/6 GT's but have lots of the same parts plus that special 915 trans.


Geoff

I think the draw to this car is that it is so rare it is probably one of the rarest ever produced by the factory and it really does deserve to be restored.

So this car should compare favorably with the fabled '73 911 Carerra RS.

210hp 2.7, 915 gearbox, 7 & 8" Fuchs.

But, it is lighter and is mid-engined!

I'm not sure how long the AA 916 has been for sale at $100,000, but if it has been a while then it is indicative that the market will not support a 916 (even one that is restored) at that price. A seller can always wait for the market to turn around but he may find himself waiting a long time indeed.

To sell an unrestored 916 in the current market it looks like a $50,000 car. That's just my SWAG. I put this number on it because I remember that immaculate 914 GT "clone" with the 3.6 (or the 3.8, I don't remember) with over $100,000 invested didn't sell for the reserve, which I think was $50,000. Please someone correct me on this. I'm curious to know what happened to this car. In comparison, the 916 here is slower, not restored, and looks no better. The appeal of this car is largely that the buyer wants to own a piece of "Porsche History." I could be mistaken, but I believe the number of people who care deeply about that issue and have the money to spend on it, are fairly rare. That's why I think the car will sell for something around $50,000. And god help the pocket book of the guy who tries to correctly restore this car.

I'd be curious to know what sort of bidding, if any, is happening on this car right now. Is this a public, long-term auction (like e-bay)? Or is it a closed and private bidding procedure where potential sellers submit secret bids. Anybody know what the price is at right now?

Douglas

I totally agree with the observation that this car has suffered from neglect (as I have also expressed in the other topic about this car "we have come full circle").

Having seen the pictures (candid, I must give that to Mr. Hamley), a sloppy respray job seems to have been done in the near past. This, besides the parts "being removed for a reconditioning" gives me the impression that the 916 is not going anywhere like Porsche Classic GmbH... This is certainly unneccesary for an engine rebuild or Fuchs alloy polishing.

100k, no way!

Personally, I would be quite content with a "simple" 914-6 and some sunlight on my head.

Well I'm gonna have to disagree with some people on this one. I'm young but I like to think I know what I'm talking about when it comes to the business side of cars, buying and selling. I've done it as a hobby since I was 16. It does not matter that you can make a clone for 1\3rd the cost, it will always be that a clone and only help drive up the cost of the real deal. We have all seen yenko camaro's, vettes, superbirds, ect break the 100k mark and they are no where near as rare as this, but they are more well known. And since there are alot more of these muscle car types bought and sold they create their own "market". This car will sell for that number or close to it, but will just take longer. When is the last time a real 916 changed hands? I'm curious. Ferg

Rarity and desirablity always drives the price up. My father ran an Antique store for 40 years so I know that one.
The 916 is a prototype PORSCHE, only 11 made. Not a race car where those were handmade for the factory or race teams. Those we know you count on your fingers how many made and each one is different as they were handmade.
I like the 914/6 GT's too but I can't afford either.

I like the idea of Brad buying it and then selling rides at the car shows for $20.
Geoff

I'm in the 70k range. If I wanted to pay a 100k I would buy George Husseys or the one up here with me. Both are 100 point cars and need nothing. This one needs 15k in pro paint work.

My guy's are semi balking at 70k for this. Like I said... I hope he gets over 100k for it..


B

Now I'm really confused. If that's 9142-33-0017, then which one is this?

That's what I'd like to know...

B, from the stories that I've heard about George's silver 916, it's pretty far from a 100 point car. (Never seen it myself, but...) And if he's asking $100K for it, then he has dropped the price significantly in the past two years. Last time I noticed, he was asking $350,000 for it.

These cars are very rare. They also have some history. Are they worth $100K+? Yeah, to the right person. Face it, folks--just about nobody on this BBS is "the right person". I don't think the car is going to be easy to sell, but if the seller does wait for the right person to come along, he'll get what he's asking, I think.

The neglect is not surprising. In the late 70s, these were just "odd" cars. Even people who knew what they were thought of them as a "wolf in cheap clothing" (to quote an old magazine article). One of the guys who used to hang out on the Pelican BBS (and might even be overe here?) had the chance to buy George's silver one when it was at Brumos, for a lot less than the price of a new 911. It needed work back then, but was driveable.

And, for the most part, cars were not regarded as collectible in the late 70s and early 80s. It wasn't until the late 80s that the market went through the roof and people started to be willing to pay a ton of money for an old outdated odd-looking car.

--DD

Brads color chart is a little hard to decipher so lets try it in english

914 143 0195 Black Private car of Mr. Piech(Brutus)
914 233 0011 Light Yellow Private car of Mrs. Piech
914 233 0014 Brown Metallic Private car of Wolfg. Piech
914 233 0016 Red "Mr. Gotten"
914 233 0017 Blue Metallic Private car of Dr. Mich. Piech
914 233 0012 Silver Metallic Burmos
914 233 0015 VW silver metallic Private car of Gerd Porsche
914 233 0020 VW silver metallic
914 233 0013 Viper Green
914 233 0018 Dark blue Bill Story
914 233 0019 Olive Metallic or light ivory

I dunno what the deal is with the two blue met. cars that is strange do you know the vin on the other blue one
maybe some are unaccounted for

The list isn't too reliable. George's car, presumably ex-Brumos, is -0012, not -0015: and -0019 is white, not olive metallic.

You are right must have been a typo the burmos(now AA)916 is 0012

The 0019 chassis is supposedly owned by Crispin Manners in Devon, England (according to june 94 excellence) and is infact light ivory
but in the Oct 89 excellence 0019 is stated as olive mettalic.

Interesting interior,,, looks like someone made the interior out of an ole pair of drapes. IMHO

I have the Feb 1972 article on the Brumos 916 which I have scanned and will attach here. This is the cover with Perter Perfect driving....

This is page one of the article...

Page 2

This is it, four pages. I also have an article about it that was in Auto Week, another one in VW and Porsche in May/June of '98 and one about the yellow Otis Chandler 916 which was in VW & Prosche. If someone wants to see more let me know.

wow! what a car....needs some TLC. someone was high when they did the upholstery! its a shame to see it in that condition...should be better loved.

I'm kinda feeling the same way about this. The 916, although fast,
really did have SO few changes from the 914-6, that what you would
have been buying (if it were sold) was just the motor and the status.

I'm thinking if the same type of thing was done today: take a stock
boxster S, put in the GT3 motor and a few appointments. Sell it for
$140000. Then factory decides that's stupid, and wait 30 years. Is
one of a handful of those going to be >$1M? Probably not, it's not
the cars that the factory raced or cared about except to make money
to do other things. And the grandchildren of the people on this list
have already updated their boxsters with hotter motors from the
future for less money
Mark S.
'70 914-6

Is this car really a 916? The rear chrome trim makes it look like a 914 with a painted top and 916 badges.

Yes it is.

He drives it to the Palo Alto Concourse D'elegance.


B << seen it 3 times and fondled it each time... like a cheap whore.

So it's 5x the cost of an excellent 914/6. Not unreasonable.

The bumblebee at ebay is currently north of 8K. If we say 10K for it, we have10x a bumblebee.

How many of us, if we have a car more than a few years, stop counting the "reno" cost? How many threads have you seen here or elsewhere of 50K dumped into a 914 of some description? Double that, and you have the rarest car Porsche built.

The problem is the pony cost -- you have to come up with 100K, plus shipping/etc just to get it home (where ever home is). And you need the 100K (+) all at one time.

btw, I'm delighted to see the pics, and I thank the good Dr for posting them here. For price comparison, I think I heard the yellow one in the bay area was unsold at 100K. (I can't find the exact reference -- it was attached to Wayne's visit/class w/BA-Woods engine class) [someone may have pointed this out, but due to the crappy US economy, most luxo items are either unsold, or price-adjusted. if you are in the hunt, it's a buyers market in some fields -- not just cars!]

Anyway, why babble -- if you're in the mood for picking up collectible 914's, you can go after the 916's (price went up a long time ago -- there are 11 of them, bring 100K as a start), a GT or a 471, (price moving up while you read this -- it's north of 50K as Brad has pointed out) or maybe a bumblebee (ebay says north is the way to go 5-10K on condition) and so forth. There are even deals in "plain old 914/6 land". In each class, you will see price movement in the future (one way or t'other). So you get to place the bet as to which one moves up the most relative to it's purchase price.

I'd love a shot at a 916/GT/whatever. Not quite today, but give me time.....



Of course, if you're reading this and think we should talk further, there is a "pm" button!

kim.

When you look at the images URY914 posted, you can see that the 916 was attributed with rear chrome trim too. So, this does not disqualify the "California 916S". I am puzzled, however, that there now seem to be 2 blue metallic 916s while originally there was only 1.

Comparably, the legendary status of the 1973 911 RS also makes it a desirable car. There are, however, more RSs driving around today then there were ever produced. When you want to read more about the pitfalls of buying old Porsches, see the april issue 2003 of 911 & Porsche World (particularly the article on pp.110-112 ).

Some questions:
- What does Porsche AG has to say about this 916? I wouldn't trust any piece of paper: check it personally or let an expert do it for you.
- Are there matching vehicle, engine, and gearbox numbers?
- What is the history of the car? Does this account for the neglected state?
- Why was the respray job so sloppy? Wasn't the previous owner aware of the rarity of the car?
- Is the car complete? This is very, very important.
- Was the car ever damaged in an accident?
- What are the credentials of Mr. Hamley? Although I must say that he is very candid in showing us all these excellent pictures.

So, I try to be not too excited by this 916 that suddenly surfaces and keep my pants dry. Once again, I am not a potential buyer.

Furthermore, I feel that 916s belong in museums, are expected to show up at concours d'elegance events, and should remain in the hands of very serious Porsche enthusiasts.

Gentlemen,

I would like to answer a few questions Anton posted and state a few facts in an attempt to clarify the confusion that obviously exists. Please accept that I repeat myself on some issues.

Dr.-Ing. h.c. F.Porsche AG confirms that this 916 is original with VIN 914 233 0017. I agree that any letter from Porsche could be forged. The key is the title ("Fahrzeugbrief") which is in my possession. No matter how perfect a clone would be, nobody knows exactly what the Fahrzeubrief states, only the Porsche archives and the real owner. It is similar to a key/lock system with only 2 keys. Since this is understandable a real concern, a possible sale will occur at the highest authority, the Porsche factory, in Stuttgart together with a verification.

The car has all matching numbers and 100% complete.

I apologize for its neglected condition and any unprofessional repair that might have been done. However, this has been performed by prior owners and is part of its history.

As I mentioned to the best of my knowledge the car was not involved in an accident. I am currently investigating this matter. Since a long time owner has passed away, so did a valuable source of information.

I understand the excitement that the sudden appearance of the car has caused. But the secrecy is part if its history; previous owners preferred to keep a low profile and enjoy their cars privately rather than publicly.

I also understand the disappointment of some so called 916 that I have revealed as clones. Very respected people, indeed, that thought they could claim the 17 since nobody appeared to have it. Although I am legally entitled to so do, I will not state any names of people pretending to be in possession of the 17.

The 17 is the only 916 in Gemini Blue from the factory. Anyone claiming to have another 916 in that colour must, to the best of my knowledge, have repainted it. Or it is a clone.

I am indeed looking for that very special Porsche enthusiast that is willing and able to afford a jewel like this car. Therefore, the criteria for the sale is not merely the highest offer but also the devotion to Porsche.

I hope I could clarify a few issues.

Dr. Hamley

Mr. Hamley,

Thank you for your comprehensive reply.

As I am not a potential buyer I will from now on try to refrain from further comments in this issue.

Still, I remain curious what will happen with this car. Hopefully, one day I will be able to see it in its full glory!

I wish you all the best in finding the car a suitable new owner.

Anton Tuinenburg

Here is a list of serial numbers for the cars that was in the May/June 1989 VW & Porsche. It list 0017 as origially owned by Dr. M. Piech.

I found an article in the June 1994 issue of Excellence thast said ... "Dr. Mich. Piech took 914 233 0017, ..." Here is an ownership list from that article.

just an observation:
In this picture it shows numbers written in a marker or chalk these numbers were used by the factory at least in the earlier cars(356's) to keep all of the panels with there perspective chassis's and all of the panels would have the last three numbers correlating with the chassis number. This included the hoods and the doors in the 356's but the hood and doors had the number stamped rather than written this could be used to determine if all of the panels are original assuming the 914's have these numbers as well.