I just went up and bought a brand new battery for the car to try to get it fired up. Everything looks like it is in order. I checked all the wiring and it is connected with good solid connections. I get in and turn the key and it turns over really really slow. Its like the battery is dead. I just stuck it on a charger and it said it was about half charged so I let it run for a bit and now it says its fully charged. I get in again and it still barely turns over. As I was assembling the engine I would turn it over by hand every step of the way with nothing binding. The wire to the starter gets hot when I try to start the car. It even smokes if I try too long. It is a high torque starter by the way, not a stock 914. Any suggestions??? Could the timing cause it to do that? Its been about 8 years since I have done any V8 engine stuff. Help me!

If your cables are not new - too much resistance

Everything is brand new. I just tried it again and it instantly kills the battery. Any idea what could be the problem??

Anything that prevents the starter motor from turning easily will make it act like a short which could explain the smoking wire (or the starter motor is defective). Have you checked the mounting of the starter and the engagement with the flywheel to make sure it is not binding?. Do you have another starter to try?

Andrew

I dont have another high torque starter, this one is fairly new, I used it on my 2270 for about 200 miles or so and kept it when I sold the car. I wanted it for the V8 car.

Sounds like either a bad starter (unlikely because it worked before) or something is just too darn hard to turn. A V8 was never intended to be started from such a small flywheel, so you're making the starter work harder.. that plus the fresh rebuild may be too much. What guage wire are you running? If you went to a bigger wire guage, that would help. Since your battery is in the front trunk I would reccomend nothing less than 2 guage. Maybe you could set the battery in the rear trunk and run temporary shorter wires just to fire it up and break it in.. after that it may work with what you have. You could always pull half the plugs

I am running 2 cauge wire from the front to the rear of the car where it goes to a battery cutoff switch, from there is goes 8 gauge to the alternator and then to the starter. I guess I could move it to the rear to start it up and see if that is in fact it. The ground was also mentioned and I have it going to the chassis in front and the engine is grounded in the rear by the transmission like from the factory except with a new cable. Maybe there is too much rust in the body to transfer enough power through? JK I dont think that is a problem. I will try the battery in the rear trunk with shorter cables and see what happens. I was hoping Levi would chime in, he has lots of experience with these old Chevy's and I respect him and Slits opinions as old time car guys. Not that I dont respect others opinions, I just know these two have been doing cars as long as I have been alive, sorta, maybe not that long but close.

Scott,

You need to get some DyKem or is it DyeChem and blue the bendix gear (teeth and front). Reinstall and kick it and see if the gear is engaging the flywheel correctly. If the bendix travel is to far or the starter not correctly aligned, it gonna make it think it's trying to turn that block long 16 cylinder diesel engine. You've got some measuring to do.

And the high torques will spin a V8. With a smaller flywheel, you do lose some mechanical advantage, but gain in the gear reduction of the starter.

Pull the spark plugs and see how it cranks. That may give you an inducation of tight bearings, rings, or bad starter. I agree with Royce. First try moving the battery to the rear tunk and connect short cables. If that doesn't work, try a stock 914 starter. Maybe there is a problem with the HI-Touque unit. I'm using a 911 starter. I purchased it outright from Oklahoma Foriegn for $50.00 plus shipping. BTW: I have 10:1 compression

Scott,

My car was setup similar to yours with battery mounted up front. I used a "Painless" battery relocator kit that included 0 or 00 wire for the positive run from battery to starter. I assume you have a good ground from trans. to under trunk?

My brand new 10.5:1 compression engine turned over fine when new and did not cause any smoking wires. I did use a high torque starter provided by Renegade.

I'll include a pic of my positive battery wire..........it appears to be larger than what I think you are running.

Sounds like your really getting close. There are other things you could try like measuring voltage at battery, then at rear of car with ignition in the on position. I had 6 connectors on my positive lead (from battery to starter). You may have a bad connection or too small a wire in my opinion. I don't think timing would cause wires to smoke at this point.

John

John

zfbv

Scott,

The 8 gauge from the alternator should be bigger. You may want to run a separate positive wire from the battery to the starter. I would also run a ground wire directly from where the battery gound wire is attached to the body to one of the starter mounting bolts. Try taking all of the spark plugs out and turning it over.

-Jeff

sdfh

Scott,

Looking back at some of your previous posts, I saw the blue wire attached to battery in front trunk that is blue. That one appears to be the same size as what I used. It looks like it runs to the kill switch in engine bay but I don't see the same size wire leaving this switch that would route to starter. I did use the same size wire from positive lead on battery to starter............and recommend you do the same if you have not.

John

Scott,

In the last pic I posted, the large red wire is connected to a bulkhead connection that routes straight to starter. The other side of bulkhead routes straight to positive side of battery. The smaller red wires are for accessories.

I used a separate (and smaller) wire to run from alternator to starter to establish battery charge circuit.

Hope that made sense.

John

Aside from length, guage of wires and the possibility of a bad starter, the engagement is critical in a conversion. On the race cars, we had to slot the mounting holes on the starter to get it correctly orientated to the flywheel. Not saying this the problem, but.........

While I know you would like to get it going, if you don't have access to another starter, I'm sure I could come up with one (911 style).

I'm done.

Like I said, I am running a very heavy 2 gauge cable from front to rear of the car which should be more than enough, Here is a picture of my connection and I added another battery in the rear trunk and wired it directly to the starter and grounded it to the head of the engine and it still turns over slow. I am thinking Slits may be on to something about the starter binding. Anyone have an extra starter laying around that is local?? I heard the 914 starter doesnt work as well as a 911 starter. So if someone has one of those laying around I can try, I would give it a shot.

Scott,

The SR17X (Lester 16300) is a 0.8kW for the 914. The SR68X (Lester 16426) is a 1.5kW for the 911 and is the one you are talking about and carries a Bosch OE number of 0 001 312 100.

I'll check if you want to drive this far.

I am going to pull the starter right now, this last time I cranked it over it sounded like it was grinding really bad like its pushing in too far. I will let you know in just a little while.

Ok, I pulled the starter and tested it to make sure it was working right, it is working as it is supposed to. I also see no signs what so ever of wear or grinding. Now I am really stumped, I was hoping it was a spacing issue that is easily resolved. I am out of ideas now and pulling more hair out. Maybe my compression is just too high? Ideas???

Here is the hole it fits into, do you see any signs of wear???

Not necessiarily there, how bout the rest of the circumference? What does the bendix gear look like?

Its on page 1. The hole went to page 2.

Andrew's was acting in a similar fashion. I was fearing the worse, (like maybe that rod bearing again...). But the solution was packing a whole bunch of cranking amps to it. The old battery checked good by 2 stores that love to sell batteries.

He decided, (since I'm too cheap to change something that seems to be working) to replace the battery anyway. Purchased a 900ca Optima. No more starting problems.

OTOH, Is there a number of teeth issue?

As a test, I would run a short battery cable to the battey sitting on the floor near the starter. Then a ground from the same battery to the starter mouting bolt. That would eliminate the long wiring and all the electrical circuits. (even though I think it's probably ok). Even pull a good battery from you're truck or the like to eliminate that portion. New batteries do go bad. With that one at 1/2 charge, I would call it suspect.

What is the voltage of the battery when you hit the starter? Ours was about 8 volts. (That should have been a clue, duh.)

Scott,

What size wire are you using from the kill switch to starter? It's clear the blue one in photo is from battery.........is the medium size red one going to starter? If so, I think it is too small.

John

plus a direct engine to chassis ground. This solved one of my slow starter problems...

If you suspect the motor compression, try removing the plugs when cranking. It should turn easy without them.

Felix

Ok, I put the starter back in and pulled all the plugs, something is facacta with the assembly. I was turning the engine over on the stand all the way through final assembly until I bolted it to the transmission. Once it was bolted to the transmission I could no longer turn it as there was nowhere to get a good grip on to turn it. With the plugs out, it still turns very slowly. Is there a possiblity that the transmission is resting against something on the engine?? Looks like I am going to have to pull it all out again and find out what is going on. I am very depressed right now and almost ready to give up. I am going to eat something in hopes I will calm down afterwards.

I would hate to lead you in the wrong direction, But that is exactly how I felt. It is VERY tight. I could barely turn it over with the plugs out.
Levi listened to it and he said they sound like that when they are fresh. Basically it shuts itself down whenever the idle is too low and stops turning immediatly.
Good luck with what you find.
Dan

I know a bunch less than you guys, but the long cables concern me. Have you tried jumping the rear terminals to the truck battery? That should at least tell you if it's a cable/ground problem. Just guessing here...

OK, I got some new info. I was talking to Joe on the phone and struck on something I didnt check. So I got in the car and pushed in the clutch and turned the key. It spun with no problem. Help me out here, does that mean the clutch is stuck on the flywheel when I try to turn it over???

And when you let out the clutch does it no longer crank?

It drops to a slow crawl, wont turn over enough to start. So I just need to figure out how to get the clutch to disengage.

Hmm, I need clarification.. In neutral but with the clutch pedal not depressed, slow crank..
But in neutral with clutch pedal depressed it cranks fine? If so, it sounds like a transmission issue.. I can't really imagine how the trans could do that though. Maybe the input shaft is bottomed out on the crankshaft somehow and putting an insane preload on the mainshaft bearings? Did you check the trans for easy turning? Is the shifter installed in the trans right? maybe the trans is locked (in more than one gear) and the slow crank is caused by the engine overpowering the clutch.

And, this is really a dumb question, but since you changed the shift rod length, are you sure it's in neutral?

It sounds to me like the clutch is working fine, with the pedal up, the engine is linked to the trans, just as it should be. Unfortunaltely the trans won't turn... I think the real issue is finding out why the trans won't disengage (howard brings up a good point)

I just got off the phone with Steve Stromberg, he knew what the problem was and told me what to check and how to fix it. Thanks Steve. I dont know if I will get it done tonight but it's going to run this weekend damnit.

So tell us?

I am absolutely positive it is in neutral. I rolled the car into the garage when I had the exhaust done and I can get underneath and turn both wheels the same direction. So yes, it is in neutral. Good thought though from a guy who knows very little about cars. I think you may be holding out on us Howard.

ooh. good point!

Are you gonna make us guess? (I guess clutch fork interference)

Actually, Bondo is almost dead on. Steve suggested the same thing, however, he said it is probably hitting on the clutch fork because its a 228 mm flywheel. If that is not it then I need to pull the trans back enough to put a washer spacer in between the case of the trans and the block and try it again, if it works fine, then it is going in too far and binding in the trans bearings like Bondo said. Good job Bondo.

Ok, I just crawled under the car and looked up in there with a flashlight, the clutch fork is pressed against the clutch disk rim. Any suggestions on what I can do to resolve this???

Hehe, thanks. You may want to check for washers glued under the cup in the fork, jkeyzer found that in his, one of those DAPO things. It might be enough to cause interference. Hopefully the problem will be obvious when you get things apart.

Just a thought. The black six i have has been sitting around for along time. I was unable to engage any of the gears when I opushed the clutch pedal in. The disc had stuck to the flywheel or p. plate?? Anyway I jacked up the rear end and put it in gear started the car and popped the clutch, broke it loose and I am know able to shift into all gears.
Just a thought??
CCLINGEARGRABBINMAMA

Well, I am going to pull the trans and modify the clutch fork so it is not touching the pressure plate. Hopefully I can get to it tomorrow, if not, it will be Saturday. Thanks to everyone for your suggestions, it helped me find what the problem was.

Well, after driving my car around today, we started and drove it about 30 miles.. found a couple problems...

My alternator is whacked up... either wiring, or the alternator itself... Drove it to school today, cranked over really great, started right up... Every time I started it, it was a little slower... through the whole day. Till we couldnt get it started (at gas station listed below) So after convincing dad that he needed to pump more gas, and when he waited a couple mins, it finally started and we drove home.... Checked the volts, 12.1.. Should be 12.5, cruzed alot today... Well put it on the charger just to see.. If it was charged it should be around 0 on the charger... max of 12 if its dead.... it was 7... Sooooo, charging it and we'll have to see whats wrong with the alt...

My gas guage is messed up... It was just scadoodling itself down really fast, like it was eating up gas like a 454 on a 1/2 ton truck... 2mpg is what it seemed like... I was getting nervous, and we decided that since its on R that we'll get gas... lol... (just gave it half a tank 40 miles ago...) Well I wanted to give it about 10 gallons.. Dont like to fill er up cus it overflows... Anyways, about 9.7 gallons, it kicks out.. Full (well 14.5 or more gallons, you know the airpocket in the tank...) Yuppers, somethings wrong with dat...

So dont worry scott, you'll get it fixed...

You can grind a chunk out of the clutch fork, or you can bend it. There may be a way to add a spacer at the release bearing to put the fork in a different spot.. but maybe that would make it worse.. if you have a spacer maybe you should take it out? Time to call KEP!

Removing material from clutch fork will fix the problem where it contacts pressure plate but don't be surprised if you still have problems with where the T/O bearing is located (as determined by how many washers are behind the ball).

Too many washers (clutch fork too far forward) will cause T/O bearing to engage pressure plate no matter how loose you have clutch cable adjusted . This will result in clutch slippage when you really start applying that V8 torque and can't be fixed by clutch cable adjustment. Too few washers (clutch fork too far to the rear) will prevent full engagement of pressure plate/clutch and cause gears to grind when shifting. Keep in mind the small hole in 901 where clutch fork protrudes. This also comes into play when determining T/O bearing location. In other words, you may have additional motion available through clutch fork, but it is restricted (fore or aft) depending on where clutch fork travel is limited due to contact in this area of transaxle.

My car used the Renegade 9" clutch, T/O bearing and pressure plate. Not sure who supplied these to RH so can't really compare apples to apples here. The supplied T/O bearing was thicker as compared to the stock unit and where the problem comes in (in addition to the pressure plate being bigger as well).

These issues were discovered when bolting transaxle up to engine while out of car and allot easier to correct this way. It was obvious when the trans. would not fully make contact with adaptor plate........T/O bearing was making contact with fingers on pressure plate. I'm not sure if my clutch fork was making contact with pp since I could not see it and did not get to spin engine over to check for wear marks.

Anyway, all of this was corrected by adjusting the number of washers at bushing cup. I did find that one washer would change the location of where T/O bearing is located by 1/4". I did have visions of augering material from clutch fork as well as hole where fork enters transaxle to eliminate the number of times I would have to install and remove transaxle to get it right, but my problem was detected prior to installing drivetrain in car and was a easy fix with just the washer adjustment.

I ended up using only one washer and had three to start with. Hopefully, you can get this corrected without having to remove/install trans. several times.

Good luck,

John

This is great information, however, I still dont understand what washers you guys are talking about. Could you be more specific? I dont remember any washers in there at all. I am starting to feel dumb.

The washers are placed behind the "ball" that is secured to transaxle. The ball is what fits into "plastic cup" on clutch arm. Since the position of this ball determines where the clutch fork is located, the number of washers installed behind it will set clearance between clutch fork/pressure plate as well as location of T/O bearing where it rides on its tube and establishes when contact is made between T/O and fingers on pressure plate. Hope this is clear.

John