Ok, so I have been building a race motor for over 2 years.

I have studied everything Jake Raby has to say, following his advice and buying his products almost exclusively (if engine related).

Last week I bought (from the type IV store) a set of AA cylinders and KB hypereutectic pistons.
the instructions in the box with the pistons said that I MUST increase the upper ring gap by 20-40% over the stock piston gaps.
I measured the gaps on the hastings rings that I also purchased from Jake.
They were both (upper & lower) exactly stock .015.

I question Jake on his "Type IV store support" forum and he said that is how he uses them (stock).
So I contacted the machinist that machined the pistons "United Engine and machine co, Carson city NV."
they told me that I absolutely must increase the upper ring gap or it would break the ring and damage the piston and void the warranty.
However they said that I should contact the manufacturer of the piston to get the exact number because it is specific to the particular application.
I said I got them from Jake Raby, but the guy said that did not ring a bell.
I gave him the part number from the box and they said that customer was "European Motor Works in Hawthorne CA."

So I call European Motor works, tell them the story and they tell me I must increase the upper ring gap on hypereutectic pistons or I will break the ring and void my warranty.
The technician then tells me in excrutiating detail WHY that is so using hypereutectic pistons.
So I post this information on a thread about this exact product on the Type IV support thread on Jake's site.
Jake chewed me out for not blindly accepting his suggestion and made a comment something like "why do I even give advice?".

I posted again something almost exactly the following (can't post it exactly as Jake has deleted the thread):
(Jake you can post the exact text if you can recover it after deleting it)

"Ok let me understand:

1 - I have read every technical thread and watched your assembly video numerous times and one thing I can tell about you is that you demand that everyone follows your instructions to the letter or void the warranty.

2 - You send me one of your products (P&Cs) which has instructions in the box which instruct me to increase the ring gap of the upper ring.
I call the phone number on the instructions in the box, and the technical person on the other end tells me I need to increase the ring gap, but give me another number for the shop who designed this P&C combination.
THEY tell me the same thing: increase upper ring gap by .010 or void the warranty.

3 - You then proceed to treat me like an A-hole trolling for information when in fact I am a customer that just purchased YOUR product."


I then tell him he can keep his PAID FOR phone consultation because I dont need his kind of "Customer Service".
I paid extra for a phone consultation when I purchased his cam package.

So what does he do? He deletes the entire thread and does not even respond.

What kind of customer support is that after I have spent probably $3000 over the last two years from him.
I know that it is not a $15k turn key engine, but why have a Type IV support forum, and treat CUSTOMER like dirt?

Since I am positive that I have burned all bridges with Jake and will probably get flamed by him every time I post on the is forum from now on, I dont mind sharing the fact that:

If you want to buy a P&C set, dont do it from Jake.
Buy them from "European Motor Works" directly and save $115.

http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/vw/type-...-cylinders.html

Since apparently Jake just buys his from them, marks them up $115 and doesnt even open the box or he would have noticed the instructions in there and possibly replaced them with his own if he wanted you to do sometihng different.

I have tried to put up with Jake's petty bitching about his customers because I might want some advice from him in the future. Now I just plain dont want it. I'd rather blow up one of his engines than deal with his self-righteous bull crap any longer.

He complains that he does not have enough time to answer questions DIRECTLY from his customers because he is so busy.
Then a GOOD business owner would either hire more help, or dont try to run an online store.

So I am sure we will get one of Jakes diatribes about how he cant stand trying to support people who ask him questions..... even if they were paying customers who even paid extra for just his time alone.

Done with rant.

Stu

Great thread. Thanks for moving it here.

You asked MY opinion and I gave it to you based on our direct experience, then you argue with the answer that I gave you. You then called everyone in the manufacturing chain, and got different answers- imagine that because there are no rules for building these engines.

I gave you the information that I have gathered from my direct experience. When I decided not to argue with you on my forums, you moved it here which is exactly what I KNEW you would do and why I took my time to cruise over here while I am away on vacation. Opening this thread isn't "washing your hands" of me, its just another way that you can argue, because I refused to argue with you on my forums and eliminated the thread altogether instead of responding and creating a pissing contest.

You bought the products that we use, I told you how we use them to create our engines with results that have extended to a 160,000 mile service life in my own car. If thats not good enough, then you did buy the components from the wrong vendor. You should have bought them from someone who would have told you exactly what you wanted to hear.

Thats all, no reason to argue or be pissed off. We'll happily refund your money for everything, even if you have unboxed it, or even attempted to use it. As long as the parts aren't goofed up, we don't care. You say we have crappy customer service, so why even keep any of the parts that you obviously paid too much for? Just send it all back... BUT then you couldn't argue, right?

Guess who Keith Black called last year when they were having ring sealing issues and skirt clearance issues with the products? Their Engineer (Bill) called ME.

Like I said, nothing like offering recommendations based on direct, flawless experience only to be challenged. I answered your question, I am sorry that its not the answer that you wanted to hear. Warranty? What the hell is that?

I thought the AA sets come from La Puente, CA

All items are shipped from AA Performance Products at 222 S. 5th Ave., La Puente (City of Industry), CA 91746.

http://aapistons.com/index.php?main_page=i...ufacturers_id=1

Maybe not, but I was there once a long time ago.

SLITS, these are not AA products, we do not use or sell any AA piston sets.

Jake,

Your response was less then one sentence with no technical rationale while the manufacturer of the piston/cylinder set explained in detail why you must open the gap.

So when someone questions you on your forum, you just delete the entire thread?

One must also assume that when you get a set of rings that doesn't match what the instructions in the piston box state, that I should just ignore the instructions an go with it because "Jake would never make a mistake or send me the wrong part" right?

I questioned you because YOU gave me conflicting information.

The parts that I received from you all appear to be top quality and exactly what I wanted. No complaints from that side of the transaction.

Stu

P.S. and I am not the first person to make the observation that customers just annoy you far more often than is to your liking.

If you dont like people requesting information from you then quit trying to be the all knowing god of type IVs.

Ok, so agree to disagree. Build your engine the way that you want and I'll continue doing what I do- no reason to waste either of our time or create drama.

I deleted the thread because it was apparent that you wanted to argue and to be quite frank, I closed my entire facility this week to take some time off from all this BS and I didn't really feel like fighting with you from my iPhone.

Customers don't annoy me, people that ask questions and then argue with the answers are the ones who annoy me.

You already had the information that you wanted and you were not listening to anything I said, or was going to say, because some guy at the piston MFR that has never used these in an ACVW engine told you something different.

About one year into using these pistons, around 2001 someone told me to increase the top gap and I tried it twice, crankcase pressure went up and oil consumption followed it. I used my own brain after that and have done so for several hundred engines since and of those we have only had one single issue.

When I return we will either include our own instructions or will eliminate the product from the line up altogether.

3..., 2..., 1..., LOCK!

IBTL

"because some guy at the piston MFR that has never used these in an ACVW engine told you something different. "

Really? You are stating that you know that "European Motor Works" has never used their own pistons in a Type IV Air cooled VW engine when they have an entire line of Type IV engine parts??

http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/vw/type-4-engine-parts

Yet you buy YOUR piston sets from them?

I will immediately let them know about their false advertising.

ILBT

Please lock it.. He has his info and has stated what he wished to state. I was able to make my rebuttal and we have agreed to disagree.

The pistons are not manufactured by EMW, they are manufactured by Keith Black and sold to EMW who then distributes them to me, FAT Performance and most anyone else who uses them. KB is the MFR. I was referring to KB, not EMW

Ava and I need to get back to important business, at the beach! I'll be back Monday!

Not taking sides here, but . I delt with a whole bunch of this myself today.

This is why I shut off the cell at 3:00, went home & cracked a beer.

ILBT

Hey, I don't get it
Did you actually payed to get this kind of treatment from Jake?

He gave it to me for FREE in this forum !!!!!

So my conclusion is that you can get all you need for free here or pay Jake to give it to you.

Jake has shown "his brand" of customer service again. Arrogance seems to be his style, I know from experience with him, and you can read it in his reply. I like the raby paid for telephone advice, Most other folks offer that free to customers, but not at Rabies Inc. Difficult to deal with, over promoted, and over priced.

Protip: Engineering types will rub you the wrong way. They're likely right, but they'll rub you the wrong way anyway. Also, nonengineering types confuse the hell out of engineering types. Rational != logical to an engineer, but it does to a non engineer.

Breath for a moment, put yourself in the other guy's shoes for a minute then think about what you want and how he can help you get there. Anything short of that is going to be nonproductive.

"The pistons are not manufactured by EMW, they are manufactured by Keith Black and sold to EMW who then distributes them to me"

No the documentation IN THE BOX shows that the P&C set are machined by United Engine and machine co, Carson city NV.
United engine and machine co told me that they are custom machined for European Motor works.
The box has a part number on the side that shows it is a custom P&C set that Euro motor works consigned to the machine shop.

So you dont even want to touch your statement that "because some guy at the piston MFR that has never used these in an ACVW engine told you something different. "

You pretty much just stated that the people who designed and payed for the machining of the pistons you distribute have never used them in a ACVW?

Then why would you use them again?

Ape,
Thank you for your additional commentary. Does anyone have anything else to add?

I'll have you all know that I am reading this thread from the toilet.

4 vs 6?


Have a happy 4th everyone!

I have this to add from the KB website:

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/assets/kb_installation.pdf

The very first thing on that page explains how you must open upper ring gap.


http://www.kb-silvolite.com/article.php?ac...ead&A_id=32

"The Keith Black pistons unique thermal conductivity, ring location and varied end use requires special attention be paid to top ring end gap. KB pistons make more HP by reflecting heat energy back into the combustion process and, as a result, the top ring runs hotter and requires additional end clearance. Increasing ring end gap does not affect performance or oil control because normal end gaps are realized at operating temperatures. Failure to provide sufficient top ring end gap will cause a portion of the top ring land to break as the ring ends butt and lock tight in the cylinder. "


So I guess Keith Black is Full Of crap too?


And you notice what website you get when you try to find the KB website?
The United Engine & machine CO.

So those people that I contacted "United machine & engine co" and talked to their technical specialist knows nothing about their own pistons?


And Jake, You keep wanting this thread to close... Why? Because you cant close it as you did on your own site?

Why dont you just agree that I did nothing wrong by contacting Keith Black directly and asking questions that contradict your "technical expertise".

Sorry Jake, it was the only one I know of.

Happy 4th

So much for agreeing to disagree...

Sooooo lemme get this straight.

It costs over $100 to argue with Jake?

What can I get for....say.....$1000?

Jake do you make house calls?

Can you cook?

Perhaps another way to crack the nut is to ask the question to other T4 engine builders and satisfy yourself with deeper knowledge than - "the note in the box says...."

However, I've found that some really good information comes from people in the know on P-cars in general, and if you do your own thing results may vary...

Good luck!

Pretty sure I wouldnt walk across the street to argue with someone for free..Let alone pay for it.

UEM makes KB pistons along with pistons for others, but UEM told you they made your pistons for EMW not KB, so they are not KB pistons if they were made for EMW, however they are made by the same folks that make custom and mortorcycle KB pistons.


what wrong with questioning the rabies man??? you should know never to question him dispite what the manufacturer states both in print and verbally. To bad raby cant answer your questions as to why the manufacturer is wrong? You see it is all about HIM. Perhaps if raby took the time to listen to the customer and answer his concerns this wouldn't happen.

ILBT

Thanks Jake.
That is all it would have taken for me to be happy on the other thread on your forum, then I probably would have been satisfied with your advice.
However now that, MY integrity is questioned, I do even more research, it seems it would be foolish to ignore the advice directly from KB and void my warranty.

Stu

Sorry that's a new one on me...
"I Love Big Titties"???

If so, not so much... too much maintenance.

Stu

In Before The Lock

There are no rules in engine building. The only way that is the wrong way, is the way that doesn't work. There are thousands if right ways, with some being better than others.

Lots of things impact the optimum clearance for rings and skirts and among those are the cylinder compositions that are being used in conjunction with one another.

The information that I offered came from my own research, my own issues and my own successes. I ran these pistons with the gaps that I stated for 160k miles in my own engine. That engine had zero crankcase pressure and went 23,000 miles on a single oil change using less than 4 quarts I oil over that entire period.

After 160k at teardown my ring gaps were still tighter than the MFR specs out to be applied at assembly. I ended up reusing the pistons again and that engine is still happy today. The pistons were not damaged or destroyed or even worn.

Most people buy from us because they want the results that we gain using the same parts. I expected that you were one of these people and were willing to defy conventional wisdom to attain those results. That's all.

If these ring gaps didn't work, I'd have over 800 broken engines.
That's all.

So what did the engineer say?

Don't care about THIS disagreement, but I do understand the issue.

IF I bought something from a trusted expert and that expert said "A", and the stuff to do whatever it was came from a manufacturer and the enclosed instructions said "Aa", I would certainly start doing research and present it to the first expert so I would understand exactly why "A" is the right thing and I would want a written assurance that the expert would warranty the stuff in spite of "A" being different than "Aa".

Some of us just need the extra assurances and explanations, it is how our brain works and asking questions is generally not intended to question the expertise of anyone, it is to understand better.

Not that anyone probably cares.

Sean

Alright, everyone had plenty of thread time to get their point across, heck we even had an ape throw in some poop.

Thread closed ...