What's so expensive, Dan... is doing the conversion right.

Anyone can cobble shit together.

-Rusty

Sounds? We got sounds. On the inside, it sounds like the hounds of hell are loose back there.....not particularily pleasent

http://www.moronthrottle.com/videos/Ulf-Ch...uck-Driving.mov

Dunno how we got off on this tangent. Sound is over rated.
Power & handling ring my bell.

:finger2:

Just because some people go spend $300 on a throttole linkage or $450 on a tin set or $250 on oil lines doesn't mean I have to. So and for implying I cobble anyting together. But cudo's for speaking your mind. My stuff is backyard, hand made, but by now on a few conversions and doing just fine.

So kiss my and while your at, so shop at AA, I hear they have some great deals on 914-6 conversion parts.

The above statements were in no way inteaded to be offensive.

Rusty, its seems Roots biggest savings in the motor cost ie: $1000 2.2 vs a $4500 3.2.

$4500 3.2
+4500 in conversion parts
$9000 Total in parts
$1000 labor
$10,000 total cost based on Brad R's rule of thumb conversion guide
Rootwerks costing
$1000 2.2 motor
$4500 conversion parts
$5500 in parts
$0 labor by himself
$5500 total cost
I don't get to excited by a 130hp six myself but a 3.2 250hp six is another story. I know where to pick up a $500 2.4 with carbs but I can't justify the rest of the money for that motor.


Geoff

I disagree, but I'll leave personal slights aside.

Well, I've held repro engine tin in my hands... and I've seen pictures of yours. Backyard, snipped and bent on a workbench... "cobbled" is the word that came to mind then, but I bit my tongue. Since you've put your comments out in public, I'm going to call you on them.

Just because something works, doesn't make it the best way to do something. I could paint my car with rattle cans from Napa, but that doesn't make the job "done right".

I've done custom oil cooler lines, and benefited from a beautiful (and inexpensive) replacement linkage piece from Rich Johnson. There are ways to do things in the backyard... and still have a professional job.

-Rusty

P.S. Hmmm... shop at AA? I've seen the metalwork on their flares. Looked fine to me... far more professional than some engine tin I saw posted recently. I got a set of their concours vacuum lines... no problems at all. Every vendor has good news and horror stories.

this looks personal

ouch.

Okay, I will disclose my deals on my latest 914-6 conversion:

$2000 - car 73 1.7
$ 600 - 2.2T engine complete running less heater boxes
$1000 - paint, flares, rockers all glass
$ 400 - V oil tank
$ 300 - 914-6 headers
$ 20 - tin set (me make)
$ 10 - bell crank (me make)
$ 40 - Oil lines, Industrial supply shop made those.
$ 210 - Windshield
$ 150 - Targa seal (front - good new one from GPR)
$ 40 - Sammy seal
$ 80 - carb tune up kits
$ 250 - 7&8x16" fuchs with tires
$ 400 - glass bumpers
$ 50 - 911T front suspension
$ 0 - labor
$ 0 - drill out rear hubs
$ 65 - New strut inserts (front only, rears were fine)
$ 10 - valve adjustment
$ 1 - air freshiner

Ooooooh, lets see, what else did I buy for this thing....

I think that is it unless you want me to add my gas money in there as well?

Ouch! Can't argue with that one! You forgot the foot print and hammer marks.

AA isn't all bad, I got my oil tank from them. Although the sales person swore it was a factory tank. I was going to buy 10 of them, but thought something smelled fishy. When the V tank arrived I didn't even bother to call them back. Just typical AA in my dealings with them. They do have some good stuff, but like a true used car dealer, will say anything to get you to by from them.

Nah, I can take it. My 914-6's are drivers. You put the key in, start it and drive it. Some of the undercar detial will not be as clean or nice as others, but my cars are not garage queens.

Rusty is cool to say whatever he wants. My ex wife says I don't have feelings anyway. Something along those lines.

Thanks for all your input!! Thinking back, my 2.0 was pretty fast, I got going 134 in Provo Canyon and that was fast. With all this said, I would love to feel a 914-6. Anyone in Utah want to give me a ride in your 6? Just thought i'd ask. Since joining this club i've never obsessed about something so much in my life.

Here's me. '75 with a 2.0 four. Do I go 4 or 6? I'm leaning towards 4. Even though I spent the past weekend at a DE, and went around in the track in an RS America, I still lean towards a 4. Why? Because I'm a perfectionist, cheap and lazy.

I have a neighbor with a wrecked 911 S that is probably a great donor. I could probably get the whole car for around $2K. But I don't want to have to buy a $2K motor just to rebuild it. It has been parked for unknown years. Fabrication is not an issue either. I have a friend with a complete machine shop (who is currently working toward restoring a 356 Carerra 2 with a 4 cam motor).

I could be wrong, but the recurring 914 theme seems to go like this:
Drive - problem - troubleshoot - cobble - drive - problem - troubleshoot - frustration - cobble - drive

To avoid this situation, the level of perfection I desire seems to be 3 times greater for a 6 over a 4.
I would rather have new(ish), cheap(er) underpowered stuff that I can count on, than have old, cobbled together stuff that I have to wrench on every other week. To me, new and cheaper = 4 cylinders. So I may only get 50K miles out of a 4 as opposed to 100K miles from a 6. Compiled at less than 200 miles a month, 50K miles will exceed the remainder of my life. I can't forget about the upward power-cost spiral as well. More power means bigger tires. Bigger tires means rims & flares, on and on... I could do it, but I'd rather be driving 140hp 4 in 6 months rather than a 180hp+ 6 in however long it takes me to convert it (probably never).

As for sound, I'd take a 6 over a 4. The most memorable moment of my motor-head life was out in the Imperial County desert 12 years ago. The McMillan clan was racing one of their flat 6 unlimited off-road cars against a field comprised mainly of Type 1 powered buggies and V-8 trucks. In a scene straight from the movies, over the "Waaauuugggggghhhhh...." bellow of 4s and 8s, I hear this faint banshee-like "WooWooWoowowoooooo" of the McMillans doing well over 80 mph. I look to the west and 2 miles away through the mirage I see a shimmering speck as the sun glinted off the roof of the car while it bounced its way across the desert. It was like the ghosts of the race car gods were hovering over the track.

A Honda V-4 at 7k RPM sounds better still.

Yes, you could be wrong.

I've had 3 breakdowns since I converted to a 6, 4-5 years ago
and I flog the crap outta the car.
One at an AX....wiring error.
2 at home.....a blowed oil cooler & a wiring error.

A perfectionist like yourself shouldn't have anything approaching this number of mistakes.

you have a 911 donor cheap, full suspension and 5 lug conversion and brakes......a six waiting for a rebuild whats the issue.

Hey, d914, how do you like your 2.5? I was thinking of building one. I know a guy who knows a guy's wifes husbands sisters brother that has a 2.7 with a bad crank. I was thinking of using the crank from my 2.2 for a 2.5. I guess the heads and cams are in good shape.

'The sound' IMO, is the mechanical noise of the chains and overhead cams. A 4 doesn't have these parts, so it sounds like the more primative pushrod engine that it is. I've never heard any 4 that sounded even remotely like a 6.

Sound aside, do the six. I went pretty far by putting a 3.6 993 engine in mine and yes, it cost me a lot of money even though I did all the work myself. For my trouble, I now have a completely reliable 300hp 914. If it were possible to make a 300hp type IV engine, it would be a ticking time bomb.

I like seeing big fours as much as the next guy, but the fact of the matter is the six is vastly technically superior to the four.

Do the six, you won't regret it.

I love it, but all the power is up top. Even at about 1800-1900lbs and a six I still need first to get moving. With my new cam power starts at 4k and I have the rev limiter at 7500. short 4th and a short 5th. When it was a street car 3rd gear was good from about 50-55 to 110mph, and quickly....Its all I've ever known besides my 4. All bad days go away at 6k+. If your into low end tq forgetaboutit.... You should hear it with megs...

I haven't seen the car, but talked to the owner once (a call mediated by another neighbor) The motor is MFI, pre-SC 2.4 or 2.7. I was assured it's an S, not T. I think I'd want CIS at least, with SC cam chain upgrade. Necessary? Big bucks? I dunno. One corner of the car is damaged, don't know which so a suspension upgrade isn't quite free.

Then there's the car it would go into. Not a rustbucket, but unloved. Cosmetically blah.

I guess I want to still drive the car. Little bit of money, little bit of work, drive car every now and then as opposed to lots of money, lots of work, drive car at some unknown date. Different motivations.

I'm with Root werks on this one.

A trained monkey can buy parts and bolt them on.

The stuff root werks does is just short of brilliant IMO. Finding a way to make something completely functional without thowing fistfulls of money at it is kind of what I like about 914s.

If something functions as well as well as a high dollar OEM part, it is as good as a high dollar OEM part IMO, maybe better.
Spending big money for that "original appearance" does nothing for me. Of course I've never even had an incling to be a CW either.
I do kind of like the idea of being a cobbler tho, shows imagination and a learned skill

I posted on rennlist 914 a few years ago that I could do a decent looking, good running 914/6 conversion for under $4k. Some scoffed, some that know me agreed.
Now we have a new king, Root Werks who has taken my statement and bettered it. But, he didn't make the claim first like I did, he built it first and then shared.
Long live the king.

Root has been good to us.

KT

As far as the engine choice, Porsche developed a killer engine, and that's part of the 6'er thing. The Porsche "mystique". You open the lid and it says "Porsche" on the engine. OK maybe there's some vainity in that, BUT it wasn't a push rod engine in the 914GT that made such an amazing finish at LeMans. Porsche built it's racing heritage on killer engines that could go the distance, and for many years with a four cam engine that certainly wasn't on the mechanically simple side. The flat six engine is a very cool piece of mechanical art.

Put the two engines side by side; whatever type four combination it takes to equal the HP of a SC 3.0 with Webers and E cams, ask 100 gear heads which engine they would want in their car.

After that it becomes a budget issue, and how much dough you want to throw at your car, and how much of the job you can do yourself.

The first time I drove a "real 6", that upper revving power band feel of the engine was something I'd never felt in a 914 before, however that engine had some miles on it and truly didn't feel faster than my fresh injected 2.0. It was also at that time though, I knew I had to have a 914 with a flat six engine.

I think Root has done a good job of showing how a conversion can be done on the cheap. Not everyone lives in a community where you find cheap 911 engines though.

As far as homebrew stuff, it's your car you can do whatever makes you happy. From the photos posted on the sheetmetal, it looks like it: fits, is functional, didn't cost much, and looks it. But it works, you made it yourself, and wasn't out much to do so. I wouldn't put it on my car, or on a customer car, but hey it ain't my car!

"The Boxter's are coming"

- Brad Roberts

Well, thats true also once they get into the $10 range they will be fair game as AX toys IMHO. As the 914-914/6's get worth alittle more ($10-20k) and the cheapies get harder to find the 914's will get away from their Cheapass image and more of a Collecter car image. Maybe another 5 years,

I still think the six is the engine of choice as the engine compartment is even designed to fit it! (note the engine bulkhead)
Gotta make time to go visit Dan (Rootwerks) and see his six conv.

Geoff

Thanks for the kind words (those who gave them). I am a big Porsche fan and love to work on the cars, see peoples cars, help them out when I can etc... It is why I have continued to keep my part time shop going over the years. I think next spring I will sponser an event through my shop through the PNWR again. It has been a few years since I have done that. Those rock.

Sponsor a DynoDay and burgerfeed Dan! I like showing up for those.

Geoff

The last one I did was a part 2 of a tour/tech session from my place to Roger Jobs Porsche. Yeah, I had plenty of food at my place before the second part of the tour rolled out. Man, people sure can eat alot!

I had a route mapped out from Marysville to the dealer and we never touched I-5. The drive rocked! I will get with the PNWR team and put something together.

E-Mail me. We'll go out if it ever stops raining. 106th Exit. East to the "T". Take a right, first left, first right, second house on the left.

Four works. Why stop at six, go to eight, hell, go to ten or twelve! It just gets tougher to maintain, costs more to rebuild when ONE goes bad. Add two pistons, you double your trouble, and your cost. Why do you think they made so few 914/6s? They cost too much! The fours were a better bet for both cost, and reliability. That's why most of us have them to enjoy. Yeah sure, everyone here wants a six. Just because they're worth more, just because they made less of them. It DEFINITELY has value, for the rareity, for the collector value. Put them all in hermetically sealed glass cases and let everyone ooh and ahh at the sixers. I'd rather drive my four and be thankfull. Screw sixers. I want Jake to do my rebuild, then I'll have the best four banger out there. Instead of some overvalued, overpriced, high maintainance six that I'd feel reluctant to drive the hell out of because it's a SIIIXXX.

I'm not bagging on type 4s at all, but saying a six is unreliable is not realistic or accurate. I have a hard time accepting that a type 4 is more reliable than a six.

They were designed to be held at redline forever and not wear out. Except for a few instances (dilavar head studs, 2.7 head studs pulling out of cases, 3.2 rod bolts) they are basically bulletproof and last nearly forever.
I have a friend with a 911SC daily driver that just turned over 300,000 miles and the heads have never been off it.
I took mine apart at 104,000 miles (to replace lower head studs) and found no measureable wear. Everything was still in spec.
I threw new rings in just for fun but it didn't need them.
The only thing I needed was 12 studs, seals, and gaskets.
Not counting the rings or special tools I could have done the rebuild for under $400. I spent more than that because I did a few "while I'm in there" types of things but you get the point.

[I'll have the best four banger out there. Instead of some overvalued, overpriced, high maintainance six that I'd feel reluctant to drive the hell out of because it's a SIIIXXX]


a little to much caffine today????

I don't post this much, but what a load of crap! And you call yourself a "914 Guru"??? You obviously don't have any experience with Porsche six cylinder engines, let alone 914-6's.

The reason 914'er love flat six powered 914's is because they ROCK!

No offense to Jake, but I'll bet if he "rebuilds' your engine you'll be very close to the cost of rebuilding a flat six.

Porsches are made to be driven. I don't know where you get this "glass case" BS.

But, hey this is just my opinion and I've been wrong before!

Perry, it's called "Napoleon complex"...those with the small /4's have to bash what they do not have or understand

(I'm actually a fan of the small /4, that is why I have a 1.8 with bigger heads, short stroke motor )

Quick! Pick one!

Yeah, that's what I thought...

I'll take a six any day and you can take that to the bank!

Geoff

Six is unreliable vs. a four?

Mine's never been rebuilt... yours?

You too much Mr. Guru...