hey everyone

is it just me or does any one else have a difficult time selecting first gear when the car is at a stand still. if the stop permits, i.e. a stop sign, or a traffic light that is just about to go green and i am rolling i can put it in 1st no prob, but if i am at a stop light with other car and waiting a while, in neutral and try to engage 1st gear it does not seem to want to move in to place with any kind of ease. it is really bumming me out. makes me feel like a 16 year old just learning how to drive.
the trans and gear shifting is tight and without issue, so i don't thing there is a issue mechanically, but am i missing something or is this just a characteristic of this 914 transmission. i have already done to much "if you can't find it, grind it."

Treat her gentle, sometimes it is not easy but be patient.

When I slow to a stop, I downshift to 3rd. When completely stopped, I put it in first and stay there until ready to proceed. Leaving in neutral at a stop is fine for modern cars, 914s not so much.

Mine does that to. I put it in a different gear before stopping, or a different gear at stand still and then try it, or, let the clutch out and try it again. Sometimes it goes in like hot butter though. Must be how things happen to line up?

I remember driving an MG Midget, Was told that since there were no synchros, I should shift to 2nd then 1st. I was told it would line things up.
It seemed to work.

Could it be Synchros?

Edit addition: Since 1st and reverse are in the same "plane" in our gear boxes, going into Reverse then 1st may work

Hi, my 1st gear is not working since I got my teen (75 1.8 FI) but 2nd gear works fine since I only drive in flat road and same thing with your issue, if I have a full stop and stay with neutral, sometimes it's hard to put my gear to 2nd gear. So what I do is to make sure I shift to 2nd gear before I will have a full stop.

Mine did the same thing 'till I adjusted the idle a bit lower. After reducing the idle it went into 1st much easier.

Synchros are gone. you need to slip it into 1st just before you roll to a stop. If I'm out of gear at a stop sometimes I will slip the clutch a little going toward reverse, then it will drop right in first. Make sure you are running old style gear oil type GL5 hypoid. Carqwest sells it by the gallon. New synthetic and limeted slip blends will make your problem worse.

Could be any number of things, JP.

I agree with Elliot ... idle speed should be between 850~950 RPM. Start there and see if that helps.

What year is your car? Early cars typically have tail-shifter transmissions that are a little worse than side-shifter models. With either type, worn shift rod bushings can cause the condition. Tail-shifters use three bushings, side shifters only two. Check their condition.

You may need a clutch adjustment cable tension - possibly not fully disengaging. The shift linkage may also need an adjustment, which would need to be done after replacing any bushings anyway.

Those are the easy check and fix items. If they don't help, then more serious issues may need to be looked into: transmission synchro(s) could be bad, which would facilitate a rebuild (or partial rebuild).

does it do the same (grind, hard to engage) when you try reverse at idle? first try putting it in 2nd while you're coming from neutral at a light, then 1st. i don't sit at lights with the car in gear and the clutch disengaged.

k

Mine does the exact same thing with brand new syncros, brand new everything.

I think the lube I'm using is too slick. If you clutch it "just a tad" it will move the syncros enough to re-engage. Or, do as suggested and slip it into first before a complete stop and leave it there. With moving components, it slides right in.

Stop in second then to first. Works for me.

It should not do that. Adjustment of external stuff is first to trouble shoot.

Dr. What do you suggest ? I was it you build in Dublin and everything works Great but dropping into 1st from stop is mystery what ever you can offer?

Same advise, check your external linkage and stuff. Also, if you got a new synchro band, this is how it is for several thousand miles.

I had the same issues with my 73, until the trip when the tranny self-destructed flying up an Interstate about 75MPH. Later found that a first gear synchro thrust block was floating around inside the housing, became wedged between a gear ring and the tranny housing, and blew a hole through the mag housing. Can you say big bucks for a rebuild, but now 1st shifts into gear just fine, even while moving!

Too bad about the "big bucks" build. I would get you a core and rebuild it for way cheaper than other places (they are crazy). However, it is done, in your car, and works and that is very much worth it.

I'm just curious if a rebuild for $3409 is in your ballpark price range Dr. Evil? Of course there will be a price difference because my guy did the removal/reinstall and adjust that would not be covered in shipping a tranny to you and back.

Holy shit, for that kind of cheddar I would paint it and get you silver nuts. Core is $75-125, rebuild labor is $500, parts about $500, total about $1200

Yeah, hate to say it, but even with the R&R, $3k is absurd.

I have two 914s and one goes to first easier than the other, but neither are like a Honda.

I end up double clutching at the light and it seems to get into first after sitting.

Are cable shifters really that more efficient/accurate (worth the expense)?

What that means is that your clutch is not disengaging fullly/its rubbing. When you clutch you release the load on the gears so shifting should be easy. Letting it sit for a while means nothing if the clutch is doing its job of on/off. With some drag there is force on the shifter sleeve and you will have the problem you describe.

Cable shifters are not going to fix the internal problems with the shifting. I have some designs to make the trans shift like it is gated, and for a simple but effective cable shifter, but I have not had the time to prototype them. I wish I had a person with a running 914 closer I could experiment with.

Hey Mike, help me with this. As noted, I have the same issue. However, it seems my stop light solution is the same... Give it a tiny bit of clutch to get the gears moving and it slips right into first. This seems to actually counter what you're saying about the clutch not disengaging. I need to engage the clutch (even just a touch) to get the gear/synchro to move to engage.

If I catch it soon enough or downshift into fist while there's still some motion, it seems to slip right in. That was my theory about possibly using a higher viscosity lube. The more sticky stuff transferring motion the better...?

When I installed the new clutch and put the tranny back my method wasn't by the book for the clutch cable, more like, make sure the lever was at the point of engagement and not beyond so it could be maladjusted there for sure.

To be clear, mine isn't an issue of grinding as I attempt first, it's almost as if there's a block, like the gear teeth are an inch wide and I landed on the top of one of those plateaus with no way in. Engage the clutch a hair and it slides right in.

Thoughts?

My trans that I rebuilt in a Dr. Evil tranny clinic is working great! I think I have, including the clinic cost and parts, $600 or so in the rebuild. Thanks Doc!

Eric, you pose a good question. If some clutching out is required to help engage the gear then that is s symptom that the gear needs some slight reposition for the dog teeth and slider to line up. However, the gear should be free to move so that these can align and if they are not you need to see if your clutch is imposing some light torque on the assembly keeping it from moving freely. The other possibility is the aforementioned new synhroband. They are very sprung making it tough to compress them and some rotation can assist in this. This may go away after a while, it may not. Every box that I have built with good used bands shifts in all gears with the push of a single finger.

Drove it yesterday and it happens or is at least difficult maybe 30% of the time. Not huge but it is a real phenom.

What do you think about the lube? I'm using LubroMoly SAE 75W-90 but its fully synthetic. I'm curious to see if a straight 90 Dino juice might make those syncros work better.

The new synchro thing makes sense. I can really push and there's no give at all. No indication that it will slide in. Tap the clutch... slides right in.

I have found nor heard any compelling reason for using fancy oils. I use cheapo 80-90 pure dino and never had any problems.

It wasn't as much fancy as it was what my supplier had in the 90 weight range.

LubroMoly is a great brand though.

I'm thinking it might be too slippery as a synthetic. That and a tight synchro? Taking a stab in the dark.

Ditto. I use whatever's available in dino 80-90, 75-90, whatever. Never had an issue. Tried Swepco once. All it did was leak out.

I am having the same problem. I was thinking a Rennshift maladjustment might be in order?

If you have a Rennshifter then you have all new issues to deal with. The stock adjuster is stupid easy to adjust, the renn is not. I have and love my Rennshifter, but it needs to be spot on and everything needs to be in top shape or you will have magnified complaints.

I've never had a problem engaging 1st, in either of my 914s.
By habit, I always pull it into 2nd prior to engaging 1st. Double clutching and
matching rpms between engine and non-syncro boxes from the past.
Secondly, during a lubrication study in the late 90s, gear oils that touted substantial
boundry layer, inhibited flat face syncro engagement.
It is the nature of the beast, as far as the syncros are defined.
Remember, 1st and Rev are locked out of the 2nd through 5th pattern.
1st was only intended for moving off, as with the original 901 transmission.
As a last note, if your clutch adjustment is incorrect and allows the clutch to move
too far forward, (does your clutch pedal touch the forward bulkhead with a click and
you feel a little chatter), then your clutch pedal is moving too far forward, which also
inhibits proper engagement.
Put the pedal-board back and adjust the clutch pedal stop.
That may help your problem a little, but as with all things mechanical, it may only
be one third of the problem.
If you are running a four puck disk and a heavy pressure plate, you may want to
change back to a stock type disk with the heavy pressure plate.
Even on its' best day, the four puck sucks as a streetable disk.
Lightened flywheels used on the street have their problems as well.
I'm not sure if you are running either of the previous mentioned aftermarket clutch
components. I just added them in respect to their involvement in 1st gear engagement problems,
as well as a maladjusted linkage, or incorrectly positioned shifter plate.

I have a stock 911S disc with a stock aluminum pressure plate. Just got back from another spirited drive. I'm fairly certain it has nothing to do with my Rennshift linkage (I do not have the shifter, just the Level III linkage below) or my clutch.

When I came back I was greeted with a PM from Stu who confirmed my suspicion about the synth vs. dino juice. He said his was doing the same thing until he replaced it. I think I'll flush this out and find some dino 90 and see if that works better. There's been talk on various boards about the synth being too slippery. Now I see what they mean (I hope).

I didn't have a problem this drive, I just got it into first as soon as I could as I downshifted for a stop or a light etc. Again, internal motion = fine.

Ha, that is precisely what I go by! If you literally cannot get into 1st there's a good chance you need to replace the firewall bushing etc. but otherwise it may be operating as it should. That said, I think Chris at Tangerine Racing now makes a measurably improved linkage as of the last year... which I may consider myself in the near future.

With all stock stuff and a tranz in good repair one should not need to be gentle. I drive all of these like they are rentals

I suspect the dog teeth are worn flat just like mine are, and the synchros are shot too. I have the best luck if I select first while still slowly rolling. Then once stopped you can usually take it out so you can take your foot off the clutch. Then it will usually go back into place if it hasn't moved. The cure is a visit to Dr Evil's office, but there is also a good article on some call the Bird Board technical articles.

Eric,

To add another opinion here, I also think you may be experiencing the effect of the brand new synchro rings plus lubricant issues. My suggestion is to swap from synthetic to regular dino oil. I also wouldn't use any particular "special" oil. Just get name brand GL5 80W90 at your FLAPS, then give it some miles to see if the ring relaxes some.

Now for the broader audience...

Assuming everything else is good (linkage, 1st/R slider, 1st synchro hub on the gear) I have seen the new synchro rings cause this type of behavior. I think that not only are they particularly stiff (resist compressing into a smaller ring), the friction material appears different than the older original rings (at least to me). It can be so pronounced that I tell people if they mix new and old rings they are likely to notice a difference between gears. That is not to warn people away from new rings, but rather that if you pay attention you can tell the difference. Examining the two (old vs. new) side by side really shows the difference. And as finicky as 1st can be, it seems to really bring slight differences in shift quality to the surface.

Then add to the mix the impact of different lubricants and that becomes another big factor. Regarding the "slippery" aspect, as long as there is a speed differential between the ring and the slider, "by design" the ring is very resistant to compression. And it must compress before it can engage and slip into the recess within the inside of the slider. So a particularly slippery lubricant will not allow the friction surface on the ring to do it's job and match speeds.

How all of this plays out is not 100% clear to me, but I think it results in situations where as you pull up to a stop, the ring just didn't compress enough as you try to engage 1st gear and the magic just doesn't happen. It also seems that a little bit of speed differential (even a slight bit) seems to help it all work just right. So that is why shifting at a standstill is hard, but if you put in neutral, release the clutch just a bit, clutch and then retry 1st, it seems to work on the second attempt.

There is also the question of the special nature of the 1st gear synchro system. It is slightly different than 2nd-5th. I have pretty much stopped rebuilding 1st just like 2nd through 5th (as a way to save a bit of money on the unique 1st gear synchro hub) as I think rebuilding 1st in this way can (but not always) aggravate rolling stop, or neutral to 1st shift quality. So if your 1st gear was not rebuilt using the special 1st gear synchro hub it "might" be part of the issue (jury is still out on that).

It CAN be made to work. Assuming everything is fine mechanically, a change of lubricant, some miles and maybe a slight change in style can result in a night and day difference in shift behavior. Also, expectations need to be set. These transmissions CAN AND DO shift nicely, but they do not shift as nice as a modern Honda or Toyota (for example) and I call BS to anyone who says they will. So don't have unrealistic expectations. I always get a real kick out of watching in-car 914 racing/trackday videos online and almost nobody comments about how slow the downshifts are. It is just part of having a vintage car/design.

To the OP question. As already mentioned there is a myriad of issues that can cause shift problems. It seems there is a new thread on here daily regarding this. As always linkage adjustment/worn parts and clutch adjustment issues seem to be the biggest culprits (and cause of internal damage). I also think that a vast majority of 914 owners are driving around with significantly worn 1st/R sliders, 1st synchro ring and 1st synchro hub. I think many have both adapted to the issue and have written it off 1st gear issues as a 901 "quirk". So assuming the usual suspects have been ruled out you may just have a worn 1st gear synchro system.

Richard

that is something that i will check. thanks for the tip.

wow that is super cool. were are these clinics?

I host them all over the place when I get time. I will not have time for a West coast clinic until sometime after June.

does not seem that far away. i would like to attend when you get here in june.

Mike, I'd be happy offer lodging and host one of your Evil Tranny Clinics at our shop in Harbor City (LAX) ...

I'm new to this forum but thought I would help with some information I found on other forums.
1st gear remedy has already been done and it's easy.
See these links. Hope it helps

Alfa Romeo fix - Don't worry-still 914 syncro
Porsche 901-915 fix

Interesting. I don't have the skill for this but if someone has I would love know how it turns out.

I did the rebuild recently. It sure is easier than the engine. I got the video, but the Haynes will get you through it fine if you are careful. Still hard to get into first at a stop light sometimes, but shifts a lot better than it used to. Well worth the effort, but every 4th or 5th stop light 1st is reluctant. Linkage is spot on and bronze at the tranny. I hope Mike is right about it getting better with age. Like wine rather than vinegar.

New synchro bands suck. They are very stiff. At least the last batch I saw was. With a good used band and good teeth, 1st shifts like a dream. It is hard to talk people through the process to adjust, check, and such. Once I go through a box, unless I am made to use new, stiff-as-hell bands, first shifts great.

So, I'm just about to rebuild the box. At this point I'm replacing 1st-3rd gear syncro bands. Should I take the 5th and 4th (existing/old) syncro gear bands and place them in 1st and 2nd?

If they are great, and most are, then yes. You will be happier.

Yikes! Did he put a LSD in?