So I am running Pauter roller rockers on my turbo motor and there has been some concerns raised by Jake Raby and Charles Navarro about them failing because they are not self-oiling. Does anyone have any information or pictures on installing a set of oil squirters in the valve covers to lubricate the rockers? Where would be the best place to tap into the engine's oil system? What kind or nozzles do you run and how much oil should be routed to them? These are just a couple of questions that I have...I am sure that more will come up as the discussion begins.

-Britain

Picture of the rocker please.

I am also running the carbon fiber valve covers from Carbon Joe...

You need to get some very small tubing. I guess you could use brake line if you are running steel valve covers and run it the length of each valve cover on the inside. and out one end. You will need to weld it to the underside of each valve cover. You will also have to add a small AN fitting to the outside of the rocker cover. 3-4 AN should work OK. Then you will need to drill some very small holes in the tubing in line with each of the rockers. I would start with nothing larger than .020 and run it and see what happens. I would pull oil from a source right after the pump. Maybe a small T-fitting off the pressure side of the pump.

These are roller rockers so they don't need lots of oil. What happens to the oil being carried up the pushrods? I would also add some extentions to feed the springs as well.

What about pin holes in the actual push rods? They're full of oil.

Bad idea. You do not want a part under that much stress to have any possible points of fracture.

damn! thems purty!

If I remember right that's one solution (one pin hole near the tip) that Jake has used and I "think" it worked for him. Again I “think” that he also welded the one tip shut on these pushrods.
I'd have the same concerns as Brett.

If you went the tubing route I'd tap them right into the head, It would be a PITA adjusting valves if they were in the cover.

Hello Britain,

In the STF, in the performance section, Jake published some very detailed pictures of an engine where he had used squirters to the valve covers also on a Pauter roller rocker set-up.
Maybe do a search in that forumsection.
Looked very trick, but also a lot of work. All braided lines and AN blue anodized fittings, very nice.

The problem of the not-self oiling bit is (if I understood correctly) that the oil doesn't get splashed to the valveguides (lubrication) and the valve gets too hot and snaps. The rocker itself is OK because of the needle bearing of course.
Also, when mostly high revving is done, there seemed no need for the oil squirters either since then there will be enough splashing around in the head (drag racers use them without squirters without any troubles), but with a turbo engine, its the opposite right?

Regards,
Walter

I looked around in the STF's, but couldn't find any posts discussing in detail on how to do it. Jake? Anyone?

-Britain

sorry, not a P-car, but the mods to this Volvo block will give you an idea to think about....

piston oil squirters

another squirter picture album, BMW oil squirters used

I'm pretty sure you can buy the 911 engine squirters seperately....these should have the check valves in them as well (like the BMW units)

Well, I did a search in the STF VW Speed and Drag racing forum on 'Pauter rockers' and voila:
http://shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=...er=asc&start=15

More specific then this would be difficult to find

Greetings,
Walter

I have no qualms with the rockers themselves, they are really nice pieces, but as Wally mentioned, they don't lube the valve guides. My failure resulted in the valve guide coming apart and valve snapping, destroying one JE and very badly chewing up the combustion chamber. At least with nikasil, the cylinders didn't even get marked. I think it's a great idea Mueller mentioned using squirters from a non- P-car, something with a low pressure cut-off. The extra oil will drain back to the sump, but it might be prudent in the worse case scenario to put a tuna can or deep sump, just in case the oil takes longer than expected to drain back.

Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance

I thought there is already too much oil dumped in the valve cover area. I found this pic of a TI but I'm sure the TIV has a similar condition.

Walter what are the ratio of thos Rockers?

Pauter advertises them as 1:1,48 , but measurement done by Jake and others showed it was more 1:1,5-ish
Stock is 1:1,3 average, so they are quite huge. Too much for almost any cam.
Pauter has two special grinds for just those rockers. Jake is not a fan of them IIRC, probably just because of the non-self oiling part and the work involved to make it right.
I really like the design as well.
The only time when you really would NEED to use them is with a very large stroke like a 86mm. Then you can't have big cam lift because of crank-cam lobe interference and need the high ratio of the Pauters to have any valve lift

Best regards,
Walter

Hijack warning!!!!!!!!!!! Please remain calm.

Stupid Q. from the special education section of the audience: Why would you need to squirt oil on the bottom of the piston? Is wrist pin lubrication a big issue(since I has a P car with an en-gine that looks sorta like that)?

Hijack over. You may return to your seats now.

Piston cooling.
911 case squirters don't open till about 45psi oil pressure is built up, so cross them off your list.

Britain, why use these? They sound like they are more trouble than they are worth.

Well..for several reasons. First of all, I have them already. Also, I am using a 78mm crank and I already have a cam that Jake designed to go with this combo. It's all in the combo as Jake puts it. I will just go down the oil squirter path using the suggestions from all...it doesn't seem like too much of an issue.

Here are some pics that were from STF but the links were broken...I email the guy and asked for copies. I believe that this is Jake's set-up.

-Britain

another...

There is a lot of oil being put up into the head from the factory because it is a much cheaper to flood the head with oil and pull heat out than build a high end oil control system. Plus when you have pressure fed rockers you have to have that much oil upstairs.

Now with that said. I would give a left nut for High lift rockers. I mean something in the 1.7-2.0 range. This would allow much less radical ramp rates on the camshaft and still get the valves open. It will also make higher duration engines seem less "cammy".

Where does the oil go on the Pauter rockers that is coming up the pushrods? WIth Roller rockers I would run a smaller ID pushrod to limit oil to the top of the head. Then come in and put spray bars over the valve springs to keep them cool and keep the giudes alive. Then use your drysump system to evacuated the heads.

On the Topic of Piston squirters. Honda used a nice squirter with a check valve in it on the Intergra Type R (B18C5) engine. The bolts have a check valve to keep drainback from happening. One reason for having squirters is cooling the back side of the pistons. This will help keep rings from seizing when the top ring land is run close to the top of the piston. (Helps cut down on emmisions). Also helps keep the wrist pins from seizing when they are under very high stress, from high piston speed.

When I had the stroker 2.8L four we used Pauter rockers. We also used type one lifters as they were lighter than the type fours and hollow cro molly push rods. The adjusters had holes in the and we got a tremendous amount of oil to the valves. We were running an Autocraft external dry sump system since it was found very early on that: 1- the stock pump could not supply enough oil at pressure and 2- that we had to use a stage to suck the oil from the heads and also the sump at RPMs over 5000. Went ahead and plumbed a dry sump system that was later used on the six conversion. As for oil getting to the valve cover area, you can fill them full in about 3 seconds at 5000 RPM with the hollow push rods. Good luck

Those pics are one way that we get the oil to the valve covers. What they don't show is the inside of the cover that houses a set of solex main jets that can be swapped out to vary the amount of oil to the rockers.

When we do this I weld up the tips of the pushrods and keep them hollow inside, they no longer need to be passage ways for the oil.

The use of Pauter rockers is serious business. I have seen DOZENS of engine failures attributed directly to them.

They are one of my least favorite bolt ons. We only use them when we are running super long strokes and cannot get the needed lift at the cam due to clearance issues.

harles and I have been working on some higher ratio rockers for the TIV that are actually worth a damn, and self oil BUT they won't happen because they would cost too much and would never sell..

Nobody did it like VW did, use the stock rockers whenever possible! The stock rocker lightened and set up correctly is a serious contender. I have only seen ONE stock rocker broken in my entire life, and I cannot say that about the Pauter Rockers....

Hey Jake...it was my understanding that the cam that you designed for my engine took into account that I was using the Pauter roller rockers. Understanding that I need to do something to ensure that the valve guides get the proper supply of oil, can we discuss further the proper modification and parts that will be required for my engine. I have yet to install the pushrods, should I start by welding up the ends of those?

-Britain

Britain,
I sensed your desire to use the rockers and the cam i set you up with is designed to work with them...

Welding the tips of the pushrods is the first step, the next step is to make all those lines and etc and weld up the stock valve covers.

I plan on offering this entire kit in 2005 as more and more people are finding the issues with these rockers and needing the parts that we know work..

The engine in that pic made 217BHP, and lives on pump gas and now has 9K miles on it...

So, considering that you plan to offer this entire kit in 2005...any chance of getting a ballpark on the cost? What would this kit include so that I don't have to start gathering the parts to make it work?

-Britain

The kit will include the entire arrangement from the main oil galley fitting right out to the valve covers that are prewelded and ready to rock..

There is a tad over 220 bucks just in hoses and fittings in the system pictured....

The entire arrangement ready to go would run around 400.00 as a good guess. All you would need to do is tap into that oil galley and the rest would slide right on.

Why not just tell Pauter they need to get it right or stop selling their junk?

You must be kidding.....

Of course they say "There are no problems"- Typical..

On full race engines that rubn at high RPM the problems don't exist as the RPM fills the cover and the guides get lube regardless...

A street engine is a different story, especially one that gets 5th gear used too soon and has a ton of load with no RPM to get the oil moving...

I still need to get the pushrods welded up correct?

-Britain