Like every 914 owner I've been thinking I want more power. You know, I'd like to at least be able to smoke a Mini Cooper S or a Honda Civic Si without breaking a sweat.

I've been collecting parts to build a 2056 2L engine. I keep wondering if it's worth it.

Or, will I still want more hp in the end?

What kind of horsepower does it take to make a 914 into a 0-60 8 second car (Civic Si), a 7 second car (Mini S), or a 6 second car (S2000)???

TIA

Wanna "do" an S2000?
Forget about a 4 pooper. You're gonna need one of these. "Around" 200 hp.

Couldn't you just cheat and install nitrous? BTW, according to Car & Driver, the '73 2.0 was an 8.6 second car.

I have a 2056 w/130hp to the flywheel...I think its a blast, and I could probably take most rice rockets, but I really don't drive it on the street much so I can't help you there...

You will probably need about 150hp to really wax most things on the road and I have ridden in a 2.7/6 and it was scary fast ~200hp like JP's above...

I think the 2056 really livened the car up, but its still not *fast* by any means...however, its fun to watch those Mustangs fall waaay back once you hit a fast sweeper ;P

Tony

Having just moved from a 2.0 four to a 2.7 six I can say I am much happier with 180ish hp vrs 100hp. I would say 200 is the magic number when you start talking dollars for conversion cost as well. This is assuming a porsche power plant. My car is above my driving abilities, but i'm not gonna be accepting any stoplight challenges from a neon SRT any time soon. But if I had to guess I would say it's a 7 second 0-60mph car. Ferg.

I recently got a ride in an ~1800lb open cockpit 914 race car with a 3.8RSR high-compression twin-plugged open-piped Motec race motor and 12x18" slicks.

HOLY SHIT, is all I can think to say....

Anthony, it may be cheaper to buy a S2000 instead of modifying your 914.
I still have my first 914 which I bought because it was an original 6. I mistakenly replaced the motor with a 2.7RS motor with ~220hp. Since it was an orginal 6 I didn't want to install flares foolishly thinking that one day it would be worth some money (what was I thinking?). I upgraded the brakes and suspension but I can only run 205 tires. The car will spin rear tires anywhere in 1st gear, almost anywhere in 2nd, and real nice chirp going into 3rd. Car has a limited slip. Make sure you have the wheels pointed straight before you nail it. Car is crying for more tire.
Yeah, the car is fun to drive...for about 15 minutes. It's strictly a street car and I drive it less than 200 miles (not a typo) a year.
Before you guys start on me I also have a semi tube 914 with 2.8 race car that takes entirely too much of my time and a SC with a short stroke 3.2 as a daily driver.
It will be difficult to get much more than 160 hp out of a reliable 4 and you're still going to be 50-60hp short. Taking advantage of every deal you can find I don't think you could do a 6 conversion making the kind of power you'd need for 15K including motor, suspension, brakes, and wheels and tires.
Rebuild your 4 and lower your expectations. BTDT

I hear ya Don. A low mileage 180hp 911 SC for around $12K looks more and more like the cheapest way to get more air-cooled Porsche power.

v-8 sleeper?

ive seen a rotary powered teener- quick stuff!

I don't know how much power my car has exactly my guess 175 -185. 2.4 big bore kit and webers.

Street legal race car - a blast.

My buddy has a turbo Miata with 245HP at the rear wheels and we run pretty close at Roebling Road.

My advice get a six.

whadda bout a turbo? didnt someone on this list have a turbo teener

was it turboshyu?

Man, I can believe that. I'm curious to hear your thoughs on the comparison between your current ride (which I think we've all been enjoying hearing about, btw), and the open car. Fer instance, did it still feel "914-like" at all? Or is it so much a race car that it could have been "any excellent quallity race car"? (I'm not putting this very well, but hopefully you get the idea )

It had to be a blast!

kim.

Don,

A couple of question from an original /6 owher considering engine options:

1. You say "mistakenly". Can you elaboate a little? Was the mistake that you swapped out the 2.0 at all, or the decision not to go with flares?

2. It's fun for 15 min? What causes it to be "not fun" at minute 16? (and yeh, I get that 911 based fun cars are more comfy in some ways -- my "other" car is an early turbo )

It's funny, but the fun-est 914 I've had was a gt flared 73. It needed a little more umph, but the handling was wonderful. (it's not that the /6 isn't fun -- it just needs a bit more room to be fun - the '73 was fun on the way to the grocery store)

kim.

unfortunately most people are addicted to power.
Most gear heads want more power .... need more power.
I would say skip the 2056 go right to a stock 3.0
loads of torque and more power than you would
ever need for the street. I am not a drag / street racer
but it just comes with the territory once you get
into the 175/200 hp range.
The car really pulls get it up on the freeway and it just
wants to keep going.
Even JP who first started with a 2.4 / 6 craved more power
and built himself a nice hotrod 2.7 motor.
Although I hear he is now looking for a 3.6

1st off, you shouldn't have too much trouble beating an S2000 off the line, they have no torque and unless the owner is willing to sacrifice his clutch, you'll be fine.


I've driven at least once a 914 with the following combo:
/4 2.0
/4 2.6
stock /6 2.0,
/6 2.2S,
/6 2.5 (short stroke)
/6 3.0

/8 350CI

I liked the /6 3.0 the best, in fact this was in Scott Yeamans orignal /6...this car could be driven daily and abused all day long with great pleasure

He is still running 205's and I see no problem with tires that size as long as you have decent tires and somewhat know how to drive.

I hope i like my turbo'd /4 once it's finished...if not, not sure what I'll do...

I have a 3.2/6 in my 914, Web cam 20-21's 10.5:1 cr
Webers and tall manifolds..headers, supercraps, or megaphones.

The car gives major wood when drving

Tim, how does it compare to your 911 in terms of handling and grins?

I haven't driven that car or anything similar myself (yet) but there is little similarity between it and mine. It is a factory 914-6 tub, not a tube-frame car like Brad's silver one, but the engine, suspension, brakes, trans, fuel system, oil system, ignition, electricals, and body are extremely non-stock and in some cases fairly exotic.

My car on the other hand is basically a warmed-over clone of an original 914-6, more or less. I've actually only driven my car twice since the six conversion began, so I don't have much impression of that either, yet.

A lot of this is driver skill/experience, but the two cars when driven by their owners are about 11 seconds apart in lap times at our local short road course. That's an eternity in race track terms. At an average speed of (only) 60mph, the gap between the two cars would be 962.5 feet PER LAP, if I did my math right.

You shouldn't be using 0-60 numbers to compare
cars' performance. If you did that the 935 would
look like a dog. Sometimes the raw numbers aren't
going to show you that in one car you had to shift
into 3rd at 59mph or something. Or that one car
has a shifter you can bang around vs. the 914
where it pays to wait a while.
Mark S.
'70 914-6

My 911 is 200 hp on a good day, it weighs about #1950.

The 911 is a much harder car to drive...The 914 with a 3.2 is so neutral. The 914 is easy to drive, especially because it has the power to let you drive out of any "situations"

The 911 (any early 911) a bit of a handful to drive.. They push, and if you lift (never ever ever lift) you go off the track in reverse LOL.

Both cars are a blast to drive~!

I now need a 2 car trailer so I can bring both cars to the track.

Chris,

So actually I find it even more interesting! That is, someone could tell me that at some point, the cars get pretty similar -- is it front engine, mid-engine or a taildragger, and so forth, and I could easily believe it might be hard to see much similarity between Brad's tube frame and some version of a /6. I didn't realize that the car you were in was a 914 tub (as opposed to a tube frame) and it still seems to be so different. The componentry can actually change the personality!

Folks, that's a really great argument to spend more money on our cars! Meuller's bearings all around!

kim.

You'll take it apart.

-Ben M.

Now what would make you think Mueller would take apart a perfectly decent 914???

ROFL...

I had a '76 2.0, bone stock. The slowest 914. I moved up (or sideways) to a 74 with a V8. My auto x times are about the same even though I have to work harder in the V8 car. The thing about a powerful car is that you can step on the gas and get a rush almost anytime.
In a good handling car you have to wait for turns, autox etc.
I have never had a powerful, fast car before the v8 914. I can honestly tell you this is the first car I have "withdrawls" from not driving for a long time. That said, I do miss the balance of the 76. That is what a 914 is all about, balance. My chalenge is to get the V8 car as balanced as the stock car without spending a ridiculous amount of money.

Kim, when I said mistakenly that refers to "been there, done that". Anthony started this thread about adding more power. I have been down the same path by installing the 2.7. The car overpowers the tires. Because it is an original 6 I didn't want to add flares. Someone could always pull the motor and go back to a 2.0. If I added flares to it the originality of the car would be gone. In hindsight that's what I should have done.
I spent almost 10K on the 2.7 motor. I had the car for a couple years and rust ate away some of the firewall and the floor. Had a new floor and partial firewall replaced and ended up replacing the right side longitudal support and added the Mayer brace to both sides.
Since I already had a 6 that I didn't want to chop up I built another 914 and made it a glass race car. First year I had it I crashed it into a tire wall and flipped it 3 times destroying it. Stripped it and cut it in half with a sawzal. Built semi tube race car.
It's just not that much fun driving a overpowered car on the street.
A semi stock 73-74 2.0 with fi and suspension work will give you far and away the most bang for the buck and be the most fun to drive.
IMHO a highly modified 914 with a hot motor can be a handful to drive. You live above 5K rpm meaning you have 180-190 hp under your foot, not 65 or 70. Look at some of the faster modded 914-6's, the only thing that is 914 is the tub and maybe the steering rack.
The stock 914 is well balanced and it is a momentum car and that only works up to a point. When you start pushing that envelope the safety margin becomes smaller and smaller.

Well, the other thing is - the 914 isn't really designed to be a drag-racer. If you want a drag racer, get a mustang or corvette. The 914, aside from being affordable, was designed to race a race with turns. There's a lot of difference in design philosophy, and trade-offs for these very different purposes.
A drag racer can often sacrifice even aerodynamics, and it's mainly about the delivery of raw torque to the road for a short period of time. Look at how a top-fuel dragster is designed.

While a track car needs raw torque, it needs good weight distribution, aerodynamics, and some of these things demand a trade-off in raw engine size, and a whole buttload of other things I'm not even qualified to comment on.

So 0-60 is a good way to measure a drag racer.
But 60-100 is also important.
And how many G's you can pull in turns.
etc.

And then there's the whole apples/oranges argument.


- -
so with all that out of the way - for a 914 newcomer, what are the basics of doing a 4->6 conversion? Just in broad, general terms? ballpark $ figures too. . .

I have two original 914-6s. One is bone stock, other than S struts and alloy calipers; I hated the brakes. It has Mahle gas burners, with 195 65 15 A008P tires. I was tempted to hot rod that one, but resisted it because I spent so long to find a nice low mileage (30,000) 6.

So I bought the second car with the express intent of making it evil. I found one which had steel flares added early in its life, 7 and 8 BBS wheels, and when I got it, it had a 67 2.0 911 engine in it, so should have been around 130HP. (I also have the original 2.0 for this car). This definitely had more poke, but need more.

So I built up a 3.0 SC engine with 9.5:1 Mahle pistons, MSD, 40MM webers, E cams, so it is probably around 225 HP. Matched that with a side shifter with Paul Guard torsen diff, and redid the brakes and suspension with Bilsteins and alloy calipers, and a 19MM AJUSA sway bar. I have 15 x 7 and 8 Fuchs with 205 and 225/50's Pirellis.

This car rocks, but it is an animal. I can break the tires loose in first and second, and you definitely module the trottle in a corner, and never nail it while turning. Right now I am running a sport muffler which has to go, as it is too rauchous. It understeers a bit, so I am going to add 8 inchers to the front as well with 225s.

The interesting thig about having the more powerful car, is it makes me appreciate the stock car more as well. It is much more balanced, more civilised and generally more relaxing to drive. Its quiter, and rides way better. It also requires an entirely different technique to drive fast, since it is a momentum car, and rewards being very smooth. The 3.0 requires more manhandling and is generally a handful; so smooth is also best. But because your trying to get the power to the ground.

So I would say understand what you want to do with the car before you embark on irreversible changes. Every step towards increasing the capabilities of the car in terms of performance, will almost always carry a corresponding trade off in civility. So if it is your daily driver, you might want to think twice about the compromise. But if you can count on something else for every day, then adding power to it will defintitley cause the grin factor to go up.

No factory cars (these days) are designed for drag racing that I know of....sure the Mustangs and Cameros are good at it, but they also handle "okay"

If anything, the 914 should be better suited for this type of racing than a front engined car (Top Fuel cars are sorta Mid-engined)

The key thing Anthony is balance and putting together a well rounded package that is not overkill in any one area (suspension too stiff or a motor that must reach 5k before the power comes on (S2000) )

A high horsepower 914 does not have to be a chore to drive on the street...most people just start thumbing thur the catalogs and ordering the biggest baddest stiffest suspension parts they can find since they think they will need it due to the bigger more powerful engine.

What you need to do is research the cars that you are interested in being able to "compete" with....study thier HP and weight and gearing, what you want to do is come close or better in some areas to meet or exceed thier numbers.

I'd also recommend taking these cars out for a test drive..sure the numbers might look good on paper, but are they practicle???

Also, don't just focus on the "numbers"....see what size tires they run and find out the spring rates if possible. The Honda S2000 is putting 240 hp down on the road with 205 tires....so what's the problem? Yea, it's more modern car, but thier is nothing wrong at all with the design of the 914 to be able to achieve the same results.

S2000 specs

Civic Si specs

Cooper S specs

For those that are "complaining" that they can too easily spin the the tires in first or second, look at the gearing, the tires and the alignment (this will also be a comprimise...an alignment that will be great on a big track, might not be the best for optimal traction or braking in straight lines)

For my 914, I am doing what I am preaching here.....balance and nothing overkill in any department...I'm running bigger swaybars, but softer springs...etc...etc...

I don't about you all but I am perfectly happy with driving my 95hp 2.0L 914. The thing I miss, is cruising around Orlando with the targa top off and listening to the engine. Forget a radio (wasn't loud), A/C, dragging, beating other cars. This car made me a Porsche enthusiast for LIFE when I was 15.

I know I haven't driven nearly as long as most of you since I'm 19 but when I had to give up driving the car when I was 17 I had withdrawls and still do today. Fortunately, since I am a PCA member (processing) I might be back cruising next week. It won't be a daily driver like before but now I don't have to see it under the car cover and not being able to drive it.

After I get out of college I'm going to put a F6 in there but for autox purposes only. I love the car for what it does and nothing more.

Heh,heh, I love this shit.

Some background
I started with a 74, stock-as-a-stove, 2.0L....need mo power (it's a guy thing).

In went a 2.4L T motor (140 hp or so).....fun "well balanced" with a few suspension mods, wheels/tires, & brakes....maybe mo power?

OK, a 2.7L with 200 hp (or so). Ah....no balance here.
I got maybe 200 yards into my first AX with the new motor and I was going backwards....oops. I've been working on balance issues ever since. Just about have a handle on it and I still drive it on the street.
It's not a "handfull" at all....noisey, stinkey, and rides a bit rough, but hay, it's a SPORTSCAR.

I like the fact that I drive it to the AX and am competitive for class wins against the trailered cars (locally) in SCCA FP.

Drag race?
Sure, we could do that....till the pinion climbed off the ring gear. Based on my drag racing days, I would
guess at mid 13s.

It all boils down to what one wants to do with these cars. Balance for a street driven car of 200 hp is relatively easy to attain, given the information on this BBS.

Taking a car to it's limits is an entirely different "balance" issue and....er....unwise on the street. It's certainly more than just hanging big tires on it.

Anthony,

Stop by the shop (SSI)..You'll never install another 4cyl engine in anything you own.

A stock injected 3.2 in a 914 is a slice of heaven. Touch the key and it fires off.. warms itself up and drives like a typical 88 Carrera. Carbed cars are good for racing.. injected is better for the street.

B

I watched while Brad reached thru the drivers window and turned the key in that thing. Lit right off. I used to do the same with my 2.0L 4 pooper. There IS something to be said for FI

I want driveability for a street car... The carbed 3.0 car sucks gas like my truck..the 3.2 gets decent mileage when you run a 915 or a regeared 901.

Factor it all in Anthony... not just the numbers.


B

great discussion, you guys. thanks! I hope Jim Chambers and his friends took all of this into account with the gray 6 that is on its way to Ohio.

The FI is nice.... but the sound..... the sound of those webers when they open up and Suck in all that air and gas right behind your head is unbeatable. Its a very addictive sound.....

Jim's car oversteers like a pig....he,he....and I got the pics to prove it
Lemmeno if ya wanna see em'.

BS aside, the basics are there...gud motor, soild chassis. It just needs a few suspension
"adjustments".

Ha ha yes it is... but the 3.2 fan is louder.. and I get the "high tech" woosh of the flapper box behind my head in a injected 3.2 car.

I "enjoy" carbs also... but if I was a daily driver type of 914 guy like Anthony is... injected 3.2 all the way. Save your money.

I have yet to clean a dirty injector on a 3.2... LOL


B

I just went for a ride in a stock 3.2 powered car.
I really wish I wouldn't have!

Now, I can't see anything else. The car hadn't bee started in a week or so and fired right up, pushed hard and was saweeet!
The feel was similar if not stronger than when the turbo kicks in in my 951.

Oh my, that is the next motor for my 72!

I agree with Brad's assesment of FI 3.2(or bigger) or stay home.

This turned out to be a great thread. Brad I'm going to take you up on your offer in a couple weeks. I'm going to be working in Mill Valley a little this summer and then regularly starting in August.

What do decent 3.2 engines go for in Calif? Up here they want $5K which seems like alot. Might as well buy the whole damn car and part it for that money.
Geoff

Yeah,

the webered 3.0L in my 914 drinks gas like no tomorrow. But there something about the mix of the webers & the sport muffler that makes me behave like a kid with the loud pedal.

Had a 1.7, then a 2.2 with E pistons & S cams, still needed more. With the 3.0L, i have enough to keep me in trouble for a while.


Marc-André

They go for 5500$ down here Geoff. You can get them with documented mileage (40-50K). The key is: they bolt right in using factory six parts (conversion mount if need be). They have great mid range torque (which is where we do 90% of our driving) and they pull like a freight train on the top end. They will live in front of a 901 for a few years..or a 915 swap is now availabe with the WEVO setup.

It's a no brainer in my book.


B