Reading all the threads about flares makes me think about installing a set of fiberglass flares before I get paint.
Steel would be great, but cost is a factor.
Can fiberglass be installed with out cracking? If so what are some ideas.
Help!!

FG is actually still curing for many many months after it's made, that doesn't help... oops... it shrinks all that time.. in fact, it keeps on shrinking..

The cracks are usually in the flares themselves, not the joint.. its the nature of FG street cars.. it doesn't usually happen very soon, and it's something you can maintain... kind of.

I have experience with cars made out of it... if it flexes, it's cracking, sooner-or-later.


M

How much more does it cost to do it right? $600, $700?

FG flairs cost about $250. Steel costs $800. Body labor for FG will be more than steel. Steel will have a day's worth of welding labor that you won't have with FG. And on and on.

I have steel flairs on my car and am very pleased with the results. I've had FG on other cars and have been unhappy over cracking.

In the end, if it costs even $1000 more to do steel flairs, it's worth it. They're permanent.

Ahhh! Another cheap bastard....just like me!

If I was doing a GT conversion, I'd prefer metal, but FG is easy to repair, replace and is cheaper. This allows you to spend the $1000 dollars on stuff to make your car faster (maybe a yellow paint job, the fastest of all colors) so no one will notice that your fenders are in fact fiberglass.

There's got to be some additive they can add to paint to reduce or eliminate the occurance of cracks due to FG shrinkage. Hell, Corvettes are fiberglass!

Fibreglass can work. It depends on how it's manufactured (ratio of resin to catalyst, temp and humidity) and more importantly how it's applied. Actually , how the metal is prepped before they are applied would be more accurate.

The metal they are being attached to has to be clean and rust free (see the problem there). Sometimes anchor holes are drilled in the metal to secure them better. Then the backside has to be sealed to insure no water gets in-between the metal and the glass. Which will cause rust to form, lifting the glass off the metal over time.

Here is a picture of a glass faired car that I found in Northern Minnesota . The one side shown has the flair firmly attached, yet the other side (lost the picture of it) you could peel the flair off with your hands. This car is a Flintstone car now.

From my limited understanding of fiberglass, I think if you use an epoxy based resin, you will have a better bond to steel than the cheaper polyester based resin.

The cheapest flares are steel ones that you make yourself.

John www.ghiaspecialties.com

I hate my glas flares. I purchased them fron Tweeks long before I knew about the power of the internet. I installed them 12 years ago. No cracks. The key for me is bonding both sides. The problem is the suns heat warped them. (black car) I post cured every step of the lay up with a thermo-reactor and still had the appearance of the mat show up on hot days. If I would have known I could get metal ones from Porsche back when I did mine I would have paid the money. after curing for 12 years I repainted the car. I can live with them now. They seem to have stopped moving. I have one that clearly has a slight warp in it yet but I'm painting the car again over the winter. I'll get it this time!

If you really want glas flares here's a tip from a boat builder friend of mine. Paint them black and leave them out in the sun for 6 months. They do this with glas boat hulls to post cure them before faring.

I always thought they would crack no matter what.

Then I saw one without cracks after 12 years....DAILY DRIVEN!


OK it was a freak of nature but it can be done without cracks.


BTW. The ones on mine are steel so thats where I stand on the issue.

-Rich Hilgersom

My glas flares have been on my car for at least 25 years. I have a couple of extremely tiny cracks, hairline things about 5 mm long. Other than that, no cracks. They were professionally installed. Pics on my web site

It CAN be done.

John, as soon as your video is out I'll get one and see whats envolved.

Thanks everyone for all the input.

my flares were installed some 15 years ago.
no cracking around the flares ...

so, yes, it can be done!
Andy

So for the ones that have lasted so long without cracks or seperation, what was used as an adhesive?

i do not know ...

Andy

ANY info on the RIGHT way to install the fiberglass flares?

Yes. Use steel.

PM URY914.......he just install a set.....I think

cracking all depends alot on the quality of the constuction of the flares.resin to glass ratio is one of the key problems ,there are other aspects but that is usally the problem.alot of inexpierinced glass builders use alot resin to make up for there poor construction practices.
too much resin the part,it becomes more brittle and is prone to cracking,it also has poor cure.there is alot that goes into making a quality fiberglass part than most mfg are not willing to do.odds are against you in buying fiberglass flares that will stand the test of time.
i just got a car with glass flares.i may pull a plug off them and make new ones for the car b4 it gets painted.that way i know i get a quailty pair.
james

a quick Google search pulled up This article on bonding to a Escort. And this short version of a glass scoop to metal hood install:

"Fiberglass scoop to steel hood

Use proper masks and eye protection when working with fiberglass!

1. Place scoop on hood in desired position. To determine best position it is best done with hood on car. Measure height of scoop. If scoop is too tall then cut base of scoop to desired size. hen cutting base - contour it to hood shape.

2. Place scoop back on hood in desired position, draw outline of scoop onto hood. Rough the steel hood with sand paper (down to bare metal) in the areas that the scoop will be attached.

3. Then drill various pop rivet holes through the scoop and the steel hood (approx. 3 inches apart), being careful that the scoop does not move from the desired position. Use flat head type pop rivets and countersink the holes slightly so the rivets can be left in place.

4. Apply fiberglass matting and fiberglass resin along the attachment areas, pop rivet down while the resin is we. Let harden.

5. Grind to flare in the edges of the scoop to the hood surface, apply body filler and smooth out.


6. You can now sand the entire hood and scoop surface in preparation for paint."

Sub fender for hood in that one.

I did the same thing Rick did. I bonded with FG from both sides. You can run your hand on the inside of my fender and it is smooth. I think bonding from both sides is the main key. I put my flares on about 4-5 months ago. They WILL crack and move around a bit. I KNOW I will re-paint the car in a few years. I SHOULD have done steel flares.

I got my flares from rennspeed for $250 for the set shipped I think? Then I did all the bonding and blending myself, so another $50 for materials. $300 is pretty cheap, but for even $1000, I could have welded on/blended steel flares and wish I would have.

I have posted these before, if you want more pics, let me know. This is how much of the fender you have to cut out. I left a 1/4" lap of steel for the flare to rest on. Of course I ground off all the paint on both sides of the steel.

All 4 flares were screwed on were needed. That means if the flare was tight for 12 inches, I didn't use any screws. Each fender only used like 5-6 screws to get them pulled tight all around. That part was easy.

Here I bonded with resin and fiber about 1 - 1 1/2" wide all around front, cured, then back side. The next morning I removed all the screws and FG over the holes with more long 1 - 1 1/2" wide strips of fiber. They are strong, really strong. You can tug on them really hard and they don't make any noise.

Thanks for the tips and pictures.
Do you have a finished with paint pic?

OK, to recap:

redshift: it's cracking, sooner-or-later.
914RS: do it right with steel.
Special K: hell, Corvettes are fiberglass!
GWN7: you could peel the flair off with your hands.
John Kelly: The cheapest flares are steel ones...
Rick 918-S: I hate my glas flares.
rhilgers: the ones on mine are steel so thats where I stand on the issue.
pbanders: I have a couple of extremely tiny cracks
morphenspectra: odds are against you in buying fiberglass flares that will stand the test of time.
Root Werks: even $1000, I could have welded on/blended steel flares and wish I would have.


And still you want information about doing FG flairs!

I hate flares now.

I am just going to cut for them, but not install.


M

Sure, carefully remove your complete fenders and rear quarter panels. Then, replace them with full fiberglass units with the flares already there (rennspd.com). Sell your old fenders and rear quarter panels to people who need to repair they're stock teener. It ends up costing you NOTHING! You save yourself a ton of labor, and cut your weight about a hundred pounds. Otherwise, buy (choke) AA's reproduction metal flares.

Okay, let’s recap…

SpecialK: …FG is easy to repair, replace and is cheaper. This allows you to spend the $1000 dollars on stuff to make your car faster.

GWN: Fibreglass can work.

rhilgers: Then I saw one without cracks after 12 years....DAILY DRIVEN!

pbanders: My glas flares have been on my car for at least 25 years. I have a couple of extremely tiny cracks, hairline things about 5 mm long. Other than that, no cracks.

Sir Andy: my flares were installed some 15 years ago.
no cracking around the flares ...

Root Werks: They are strong, really strong. You can tug on them really hard and they don't make any noise.

bob91403: You save yourself a ton of labor, and cut your weight about a hundred pounds.

914RS: In the end, if it costs even $1000 more to do steel flairs...


I'd but the money in the motor, wheels, interior or something that someone would notice without fondling your fender.

That's just what I was saying. The problem with fiberglass flares is that you're bonding them to metal, so they crack. Not to mention you're cutting up a set of perfectly good stock fenders. If you remove the whole fender, and sell it, it covers the cost of the fiberglass (with flare) fender (no expense, spend it elsewhere). The only work, is to remove and replace them, complete. Less weight, less labor, no expense, less likely to crack. Much easier to replace if damaged. You need flares if your going to run wider rims. Otherwise, they add wind resistance, and unless your running more engine, it's just sucking HP out of your engine to run wider rims. The only time you NEED flares, and wider rims, is when you intend to race with a bigger engine in the car. If you're just doing it to a street machine, with a stock engine, it might look cool, but, it's going to be a loss in performance. Leave it to the 2.7 and larger track cars. A stock engine street teener is worth more with stock fenders, and will perform better than one with flares and wider rims.

Jeeze, guess I struck a nerve with Special K. Sorry about that dude, I'll buy you a beer if we meet.

Yes, I admit I skewed some of the quote samples to make my point, but the point still stands. A majority of the responses acknowledge the problems with fiberglass cracking. I too, have seen long term FG installs that weren't cracked, but they're the exception, not the rule. If you have to repaint the car five years down the road (like about 50% of FG flare jobs), then you will have spent more than if you had just done it right in the beginning.

How many guys here with cracking steel flares? (obviously zero)

Which increases the value of your car: steel or FG? (I know many guys, including myself, who would not purchase a car with FG flares)

I agree with bob (gulp), if you MUST have fiberglass, do the whole fender as a FG unit. However, the weight savings is more like 40-50lbs for the four fenders and I disagree that there's a significant labor savings if you're going to fit them up right.

It's kinda like the /4 vs /6 argument:

No one converts from a /6 to a /4.

No one cuts steel flares off a car to install FG.

If you still want FG, it's obviously your decision. I've said my piece, so go enjoy your car your way.

Here is a picure of my car. It has been lowered and had wheel spacers installed since. Looks much better. The overall quality is good on the flares. Budget was unfortunatly a big deal for me. My wife and I got scammed on a house deal just about the time I bought this car and decided we were taking it on our yearly PCA Whislter trip. So it had to get done, well, you know what I mean. I spent 6 weeks converting it to a 914-6 with flares, new winsheild, door panels etc. It was a lot of fun intense work and the car turned out great and did great the whole trip.

Buuuuuuuuut.

If I would have had the money, I would have gone steal. My flares only cost me $300 for ALL the labor and materials to bond and blend as I did the work myself. I just didn't have the extra $600 for steel flares. I wish I did, but these are strong and look great. So I will live/deal with them over the years.

If I had a brain, I would have kept the parts I cut out of the fenders and eventually welded steel flares onto the car. But like a moron, I tossed them. Duh.

Not at all Joe, I was smiling the whole time I was cuttin' and pastin'....I get some kind of sick enjoyment out of "stirrin' the sh*t" once in awhile , Hell...my car has welded on metal flares (911 SC type).

But seriously, if I only had "X" amount of bucks to spend, and just haaaad to have flares, I probably would buy FG ones because I'm a better "bonder" than a "welder"....and a cheap bastard

Might take you up on that , if I ever get down to Albuquerque to visit my little bother

You mother fucker.

I need a

No one converts from a /6 to a /4.

Bet no one else has, I Bought a 1976 six conversion from Rootwerks, Blown engine. Had a left over four banger from a 6 conversion I did ,so i put the four back in the root werks car and sold it , keepin all the six stuff. there ya go 4 to 6 to 4 And it had FG flairs

Sorry Joe, sometimes I can't help myself

Have a couple for me too!

It's refreshing to see some good ole' american ball bustin' without someone getting their feathers all ruffled

Oh, it's been reported..



Brumos uses FG flares so they can let washed up 90 year old actors drive their cars, and fix them cheap.


M

This is the first thread I ever started. Just had a thought about some flares before I get the car painted (I don't even know what color, orange,yellow,white, green, or gun metal grey).
Just thought I would seek some input.



I think I'm the cheapest bastard and I'm a better welder than bonder.

Thanks again

i had to search this thread out and and ask one question.

does anyone have a pic/example of the riveted on solution?

i know it has it's own special "look" to it, but it does address all of the negatives i've read on this thread. it woldn't crack. it will flex, expand, and contract with heating/cooling.

easy to replace...

thoughts?

My flares have been installed for about 3 years. No cracks. I would however install steel if I ever had the choice again! You will get the money back out of it if you resell. The fiberglass flares I believe are not worth the time,money and the chance of cracking and ruining a new paint job or cutting up a good 914. I love the look of the flares, but use steel

i had to search this thread out and and ask one question.

does anyone have a pic/example of the riveted on solution?

i know it has it's own special "look" to it, but it does address all of the negatives i've read on this thread. it woldn't crack. it will flex, expand, and contract with heating/cooling.

easy to replace...

thoughts?

I have seen a set of FG flares that were put on Brad Anders car about 20 years ago, no cracks.

Roger, You and I think alike. I'm interested in the rivited approach as well. And I like the look depending on the color(s). Roger did you get your Gottis finished yet?

T.C.

Mine are F/G, it's a track/street car, I figured it would be a easier & cheaper fix if I took one out.

QUOTE (carr914 @ Dec 27 2005, 05:40 PM)

Roger, You and I think alike. I'm interested in the rivited approach as well. And I like the look depending on the color(s). Roger did you get your Gottis finished yet? T.C. Mine are F/G, it's a track/street car, I figured it would be a easier & cheaper fix if I took one out.

Hey T.C.,

Nope, the Gotti's are just sitting there. I've never taken a multi-piece rim apart before and so i'm thinking how i can paint the inners without dissassembling.....

Yep, mine is going to be a street/track car too. The only 2 things she really needs right now is more rubber to the road and bigger brakes. All the parts are either here now or on their way. then it's a matter of gettin' 'er done.

i'm just trying to get all my ducks in a row before the major work week begins. (vacation time in Jan....)

Also I agree the paint job will make a big difference on how the riveted solution looks in the end.

pics??? of the riveted solution????


Rog

QUOTE (redshift @ Nov 19 2004, 04:37 PM)

Brumos uses FG flares so they can let washed up 90 year old actors drive their cars, and fix them cheap.

You mean like this?

Or this?

Rivits, We need pictures of rivits

Rogger you got your suspension done already?

lol



Andrew

QUOTE (STL914 @ Dec 27 2005, 05:58 PM)

[QUOTE=redshift,Nov 19 2004, 04:37 PM] Brumos uses FG flares so they can let washed up 90 year old actors drive their cars, and fix them cheap.

Once again Miles is right! About the FG flares anyway.


A couple of years ago I was at an HSR event and Brumos had their fleet of customer 914's and crew. I asked one of the Brumos guys a few questions about the cars. I asked about the flares they used and he did tell me that they use fiberglass because they install quickly and are cheaper to repair than steel when damaged. He also told me that Brumos makes their own fiberglass flares, rockers, spoilers, etc. and will sell to the public.

Brumos does not make their own flares etc. They have the guy that was making them inhouse do them as he retired. Very low volume, pricey. Heck Brumos hardly uses the vintage fleet as the DP program uses up their resources.

T.C.

QUOTE (dan10101 @ Dec 28 2005, 01:18 PM)

Rogger you got your suspension done already? lol Andrew

hey, don't laugh.

starting jan 13 i've got a week off and lots of stuff will get done.

if all goes well the wiring will get done as well as front suspension and rear 5 bolt/brakes. Then chopping the rear fenders for the 10" fatties and flares.



why, U available for supplying moral suport and guidance?????? I have never pulled apart the rear suspension before but i know someonw who has MANY times, oh mighty "CV crusher"....