Hi guys...new to forum and new to 914's. I found a car I'm interested in and seems reasonably straight for a bit of a project car. One of the things I'm curious about is that the FI had been replaced with carbs. Has 44mm webers and seller has extra parts for car incl 38 webers, which he says could also be used.

As I research what to look for in a 914, I've seen it mentioned more than a couple times to watch for ones that have been carbed and to avoid them. Then I also see a numbet of threads on people discussing the carbs on their cars. So really what I'm wondering is, how big of a red flag is this really? Shouldn't rally be treated as a deal breaker?

Thanks for any help, guys! Hope to be a first time owner shortly!

I would never classify it as a deal breaker out of hand. They can work great. They need to be set up right to work well.

Some people actually prefer carbs to the original fuel injection. They're wrong, of course, but they do. They like the sound, like some people prefer the sound of the original sixes. Takes all kinds, doesn't it? Don't dismiss the car just because of that, they're no reason to walk away from a good car.

I wouldn't worry about the carbs, I would worry about rust.

I love the carb vs FI threads...

Get the car running, enjoy the car.

Carbs are not complicated.
Keep the jets clean.

914's were available with carbs from the factory.
Nobody seems to know if they had a different cam, though.


KT

As long as it's any form of *dual* carbs, I wouldn't discount the car. If it's a single carb setup, you're looking at $500+ to switch it out and get to a decent dual setup. In your case, that doesn't seem to be a problem.

I'd love to find a decent car with the fuel injection working someday. Mine came with carbs, which forced me to learn them and how they work. But it's not a deal breaker. As long as you don't mind tinkering and learning some basic physics, they're no problem at all.

If it's anything under a 2.0, the 44s are probably too big, but they can still be made to work well. I'm not familiar with any kind of Weber 38s for these cars. Perhaps 36s?

Here's our 2.0 914 powered racing Bug on the dyno making 123hp:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYTCR_u6amo


KT

Call me crazy but my '74 1.8L has a Single Dual progressive Weber 32/36 that the Previous Owner installed. I had a complete engine rebuild by Translog and we put the correct Cam in with the idea that when ready I would go to Twin Dual Carbs.
The car is running so good right now, plenty of power for me, that I'm in no hurry to swap from single to twins, I love it.

Talking to Tony at Translog I mentioned that I'm hearing twin dual38/38 Dellorto's are the right size for the flat 4's and any thing bigger is not going to result in better performance for normal street use. The 44 Duals usually need to be detuned with smaller jets. 40 Webers are OK. But you definitely need the correct Cam and to have the carbs tuned and adjusted by an experience Porsche guy to put the right jets in and adjust the floats. This applies to new Webers right out of the box also, you can't just install them and have them right from the start. You also have to have the right Fuel pump to match what Carb, Carbs or FI you have.

I totally agree with what was said in the previous post. Drive it for a while and don't change things if it runs well, until later on if you want too. It's not a deal breaker.

Twins are kind of neat looking though.

The single carb complaint doesn't sit well with me.
All of the factory delivered VW's were single carbed...


KT

I had CIS on my 3.0L. I replaced it with Weber 40IDA3Cs. The sound difference is incredible and boy does it sound great with carbs.

Sorry, but you're misinformed. No Type 4s were fitted with a single carb. The Type 1s were.

Yes, type ones.

They worked great.


KT

Call me crazy but my '74 1.8L has a Single Dual progressive Weber 32/36 that the Previous Owner installed. I had a complete engine rebuild by Translog and we put the correct Cam in with the idea that when ready I would go to Twin Dual Carbs.
The car is running so good right now, plenty of power for me, that I'm in no hurry to swap from single to twins, I love it.

Talking to Tony at Translog I mentioned that I'm hearing twin 38 Webers are the right size for the flat 4's and any thing bigger is not going to result in better performance for normal street use . The 44 Duals usually need to be detuned with smaller jets. 40 Webers are OK. But you definitely need the correct Cam and to have the carbs tuned and adjusted by an experience Porsche guy to put the right jets in and adjust the floats. This applies to new Webers right out of the box also, you can't just install them and have them right from the start. You also have to have the right Fuel pump to match what Carb, Carbs or FI you have.

I totally agree with what was said in the previous post. Drive it for a while and don't change things if it runs well, until later on if you want too. It's not a deal breaker.

Twins are kind of neat looking though.

I celebrate this post.

A buddy of mine, did the same.
He races his 911. Podiums nearly every race.


KT

Of course. Shorter intake runners that don't have an abrupt 180 degree bend. Which is why they aren't the right thing to put on Type 4s. They will work, but not like duals will. Again, simple physics. If you've owned a 914 with a single carb, then switched to duals (I have), the difference is night and day.

Again, back to the original poster's question though - looks like the consensus is, don't discount a car with carbs, especially if it's already running. If you want to keep them, you'll eventually either need to learn how to tune them, or find a mechanic who can tune them. You can always find a fuel injection setup later on if that's more your style.

I would take any good running 914 that wasnn't all beat up or rusty.


It will be fun to debate the single vs double carb debate at another time...


KT

"Chuckle"

You're right, but that's not the reason. All those single-carb T1 engines had an intake manifold that pre-heated the intake runners, which kept the fuel from atomizing before it reached the cylinders. When you put a non-heated single carb manifold on a T1 it turns as piggish as a single carb on a T4. really hard to tune. None of the T4 single carb manifolds have provisions to heat the runners.

The single carbs are OK at full throttle, piggish at idle and low RPM's. That's a general statement, but I don't think anyone who's switched from a single to a dual carb setup has not been amazed at the improvement. It's like getting the engine rebuilt, night and day.

Oh, and I've never heard of 38 Dell DRLA's. 36 yes, which flow about like 40 Weber IDF's, so are pretty well matched to a stock engine.

You have already answered your question

Carbs are not an issue with the 914 as others have stated.

The real deal breaker is rust. The 914 you are looking at likely has rust issues that can go unseen. Some rust issues are minor, many are major. The rocker panels under the doors and the interior carpeting are an excellent way to hide some of the worst rust issues in these cars.

Also learn the phrase "hell hole".

Get someone from this board to look at the car with you or for you. Don't buy it alone.

Did you know that the single port 1963 1200cc Formula Vee race cars don't use the pre-heat portion of the manifold? ( I have one )

To what result?

From 40hp in stock form to 60-62hp with only blueprinting and tuning.

Most carb "problems" are a result of improper tuning and adjustment, it's not just because they are on the motor.


KT

Sure, so do you run your F-V at part throttle a lot? Like I said, it doesn't make that much difference at full throttle with high mixture velocity, but slow it down and it will fall out.

I don't know F-V's, but I do know street cars. You think they're running fat at low speeds, because you're trying to burn raw fuel droplets, so lean the jetting, but then they spit from being lean. And they never run well, they're always a little dull, like they're running too rich. It isn't just adjustments and it isn't just me, it's everyone who tries to tune them. For street cars. They will run well at high RPM's, but are problematic at low. My experience, anyway. Well, mine and every other mechanic I know.

The single carb debate mostly applies to the warmup phase of the motor. Which is irrelevant in a racecar, but pretty frustrating in a street car. Another example of how you can't always take great racetrack logic and apply it to a street car.

Of course everyone's different and if you're familiar with heel-toe throttle even a nasty cold motor can be tamed and learned to drive just fine. My turbo motor will die at idle for the first five minutes, but I have no problem whatsoever because I just keep the revs up as I pull to a stop.

So everybody's different and there is no right answer. If you like how a PICT-24 single carb runs on your engine, keep driving it!

Bus yes, it had carbs.
914 never had carbs.
912 had carbs, but only on the 356 engine.
912e had the 914 motor with modified ljet.

I though the European 914s came with carbs?

They did.
I was curious if the factory used a different cam in those cars.

I have been wondering for many years.


KT

Carbs sound badass. Carbs have soul. FI is for wimps. Carbs rule.

Agreed. Say no to NLA parts and super annoying troubleshooting of a 40 yr old FI. Carbs are just fine. And,I know no one has said so yet, but they sound pretty damn cool!

End of discussion!





KT

... and

and

early fastys, square backs and other variants, dual singles. some buses w/T-4s dual singles. early 914s (euro) dual solex 40 PDSIT.

Seems this rumor has no facts ( that I have seen) to back it up.
Please post a car or pictures of the OEM carbs.

I was always under the impression that this was just a rumor.

pictures and related text/info on pages 48, 49 and 50 of your haynes.

So you want the real story?

It's all in the cams. Most 914's have their FI replaced because a component went bad and/or the mechanic du jour didn't know how to properly repair it. Common logic of the day was "that FI is finicky, I'd just throw some carbs on it, you'll get more HP and it will be easier to deal with."

FI has fairly mild cams as the intake doesn't like the pulse from a larger lumpy cam. So... Most 914's that got carbs got them to fix a problem that the person working on the car couldn't fix. They never got the proper cam to go with the carbs. There's plenty built with a proper cam for carbs and that have carbs. That's when you actually will get more HP and, this can really be a good thing.

Don't walk away from any 914 because of carbs... Walk when you can see the street through the hell hole.

I have the 44s on my 2.0, and it runs very good. I have driven a few with the original fuel injection, and they seem to run better. The carbs will never get as good of MPG either.
The big problem is rust.

Now this is absolutely the best advice given in this thread.

Debating which induction system is the best is just a useless waste of time. Kinda like the chicken or egg came first debate.

I'm gonna need some singles and intakes for the 912 motor going in the bug ... I don't think the duals are gonna fit under the deck lid

Actually, you got that backwards DB. The heat atomized the fuel prior to reaching the cylinders.

Rust is the issue, not carbs.

Misconception, a car from this board got over 49 MPG with duel 40's on an otherwise stock 1.7. Linda Horne's NICE 914, and this car was also COTM.

Oh crap, you're right. It should have been "kept the fuel atomized" instead of "kept from".

And Eric the fuel injection cam probably doesn't help, but it isn't the cause. All the T1 bugs had carburetor cams, but if you put tubular headers on them that didn't have the provision for that heat riser they'd turn into gassy pigs. Do it even if you replaced the stock cam with a hotter one. In bone stock engines with a lot of miles that riser would sometimes get packed with carbon and the engine would run badly, which was difficult to diagnose until you knew the symptoms. It's really those long cold runners screwing up the fuel mixture. As a mechanic I made a lot of bugs run semi-good instead of really good, until someone gave me a hint and the light came on. Still feel bad about that.

I would like more details about this please!

I think they were the single choke Solex carbs

I agree with the this being the best advice. Sounds to me like the smartest thing I could do. Now...who's in Edmonton? :-D

Thanks for all the comments, views and education, guys!

Linda Horne, Howard Dranow and myself went to the Route 66 each year. The first year I trailered my 75 1.8 with duel solexs on it. I let Linda drive it on the route and when she got back to me she told me to put them on her 1.7. You see she had a D-Jet problem that 3 shops and myself could not solve. She spent $2400 on it at the 3 shops and it only ran different, not better. So at he end of the Route 66 when she got back to me she said "Your putting carbs on my car."
So on the next Route 66 with Howard, Linda and myself we had done all of the work to make her car ready for her to enjoy. New carbs and a new tranny from Thomas. We set out for the run and on the way Howard started doing our mileage. He was miffed at me cause his 997 was getting 25 MPG and my 914-6 was getting 27 MPG, but he says Linda was getting 44 MPG. Now, we just thru the carbs at her car and did nothing to really tune it for the run. It had 205/50s with 30 psi and we drove 70 most of the time. On the way back we gassed up in Parker and drove straight back till we ran into traffic on the hill coming out of Desert Hot Springs and we got off of the freeway till Riverside, some 20 miles away. We headed for Huntington Beach and filled up. Linda took 6 gallons and it was 295 miles. Thats 49.16 MPG. If we had not run into traffic and driven straight thru she would have gotten over 50 MPG. I speculate that the L-Jet would get even better mileage than the D-jet carbed.
Sorry for the long post.

Having looked at a car with carbs recently (and passing on it), and never having rebuilt an engine, my understanding is as follows:

If you buy a car with carbs,
You will want to know if the cam was changed to accommodate the carbs.
If the car has a special cam for carbs,
Then going back to fuel injection may not be possible.

If you stick with the carbs, that will not be an issue.

Paul

I can hear Howard now.

Soooo where would I find such a conversion kit? I am running a progressive single that does okay (added a heat riser) but I know it will NEVER give me the mpg you're talking about.

My Single carb 32/36 weber with correct cam runs great!

Doug

here's a Link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...p;v=H4t0M2wrhu8

Anyone should be proud to drive that car.
Doesn't this put the myth to bed that a single carb set-up is no good?


KT