Full Version: Front Sway Bars
I'm see prices of $150, 350, and 500+ for new sway bars
Just wondering, once on the car will there be a difference in feel?
I really only want to spend $200.00, want adjustability, and 19mm for road only.
Your opinions please. Make some sense out of this for me.
Thanks
John
Night and day difference.........drive one without, then drive one with.........you will agree and see the need for at least a front.
Install the largest you can afford.
31mm here.
KT
31mm here.
KT
Trekkor is a racing nut who is having fun!!! You have to determine what your car is how your car is going to be used and then put in at least the front sway bar. The stock sway bar (19mm??) is very good for a road car; racing is something else ranging from 21mm to Trekkor's 31mm and may be then some.
Torsion bars and shocks must be considered.
Back if you run a sway bar, the stock 16mm is good for the road (depends on who's view and experience); racing may use something else.
At least run a front sway bar because it makes the difference "between heaven and hell" in driving, either racing or street.
Enjoy finding out what your usage dictates and build one into your car, then have fun.
Steve Hurt
Torsion bars and shocks must be considered.
Back if you run a sway bar, the stock 16mm is good for the road (depends on who's view and experience); racing may use something else.
At least run a front sway bar because it makes the difference "between heaven and hell" in driving, either racing or street.
Enjoy finding out what your usage dictates and build one into your car, then have fun.
Steve Hurt
QUOTE(Trekkor @ Aug 23 2013, 11:05 PM) 
Install the largest you can afford.
31mm here.
KT
Really?
For a road car?
Actually my question was not clear.
Would I feel the difference between a cheap or expensive bar, or is the price all in the ease of adjustments?
John
The more expensive ones will move more smoothly, and use higher-quality hardware. There will be some difference in feel, and they will be somewhat less likely to have some sort of failure. (Though the cheaper ones don't have a huge failure rate; Rich Herzog blamed the wreck of his Six on a failure of one of those.)
--DD
--DD
yes, sorry.
For a road only, not tracked or autocrossed, driven at the speed limit car, a stock bar would probably be enough.
If you plan on hammering the back roads like a wild man, which I suggest you don't, get a big bar.
The big bar I added, transformed my car from a swaying questionable ride into a tight, dialed, on rails experience.
I have it turned 1/3 to full stiff. Stock front torsion bars, Koni yellow's, 200# rear springs and stock rear sway bar installed.
Click to view attachment
KT
For a road only, not tracked or autocrossed, driven at the speed limit car, a stock bar would probably be enough.
If you plan on hammering the back roads like a wild man, which I suggest you don't, get a big bar.
The big bar I added, transformed my car from a swaying questionable ride into a tight, dialed, on rails experience.
I have it turned 1/3 to full stiff. Stock front torsion bars, Koni yellow's, 200# rear springs and stock rear sway bar installed.
Click to view attachment
KT
31mm?
Did you go get a piece of pipe from Home Depot?
Rich
Did you go get a piece of pipe from Home Depot?
Rich
QUOTE(r_towle @ Aug 23 2013, 08:57 PM)
31mm?
Did you go get a piece of pipe from Home Depot?
Rich
Lol.... That's what I was thinking.
I wish 
Smart Racing Products ( now Jerry Woods Enterprises )
It was About $800 if I recall.
Click to view attachment
KT
Smart Racing Products ( now Jerry Woods Enterprises )
It was About $800 if I recall.
Click to view attachment
KT
Hi John, I think I gave you my 2 cents on this when we were on your boat, but I will post here for other comments (if any).
I put a stock front bar on my car last fall and have a rear bar that I have not installed.
Before installation there was a fair amount of body roll and if you lifted mid turn the trailing throttle oversteer was substantial enough to require a noticeable decrease in steering input.
After installation there was substantially less body roll and the trailing throttle oversteer was gone!
It made a huge difference and I was very happy!
Jump forward six months to this past spring when I started autocrossing.
No matter what I did to the tire pressure (Goodyear Eagle GT's great street tire, substandard AX tire), the car plowed and the body lean was substantial!
IMO, for the street the right thing to do at this point would have been to add the rear bar, but this doesn't work for AX as you will unweight the inside rear tire and spin it losing grip coming off of corners.
So I went in search of used 140 lb rear springs, but found 165 lb progressive springs instead. These also ended up needing no helper springs or adjustable perches as they had about the same ride height as the 100 lb springs I removed!
I was afraid of the way they would ride on the rough roads up here, but ended up improving the ride - firm but not harsh! I really like this setup for the street.
On the AX course the car was so much flatter it was like a different car! In fact other drivers noticed the difference and asked what I changed. I could use the throttle to steer and tire pressure could actually be used to fine tune! If anything it has a touch too much oversteer right now that I am going to tune out by adding adjustability to the stock bar and stiffening it up a touch, but it sure is fun to drive this way! With 140 lb springs the stock front bar would probably be about perfect.
So a big bar in the front without stiffening the back will result in an understeering car. I would suggest either stock bars at both ends with the 100 lb springs or the stock bar (or adjustable slightly larger bar) in front with 140-165 lb springs. I would only go to a big bar if I was going to go with 180+ lb springs and I don't think that is what you are looking for.
I put a stock front bar on my car last fall and have a rear bar that I have not installed.
Before installation there was a fair amount of body roll and if you lifted mid turn the trailing throttle oversteer was substantial enough to require a noticeable decrease in steering input.
After installation there was substantially less body roll and the trailing throttle oversteer was gone!
It made a huge difference and I was very happy!
Jump forward six months to this past spring when I started autocrossing.
No matter what I did to the tire pressure (Goodyear Eagle GT's great street tire, substandard AX tire), the car plowed and the body lean was substantial!
IMO, for the street the right thing to do at this point would have been to add the rear bar, but this doesn't work for AX as you will unweight the inside rear tire and spin it losing grip coming off of corners.
So I went in search of used 140 lb rear springs, but found 165 lb progressive springs instead. These also ended up needing no helper springs or adjustable perches as they had about the same ride height as the 100 lb springs I removed!
I was afraid of the way they would ride on the rough roads up here, but ended up improving the ride - firm but not harsh! I really like this setup for the street.
On the AX course the car was so much flatter it was like a different car! In fact other drivers noticed the difference and asked what I changed. I could use the throttle to steer and tire pressure could actually be used to fine tune! If anything it has a touch too much oversteer right now that I am going to tune out by adding adjustability to the stock bar and stiffening it up a touch, but it sure is fun to drive this way! With 140 lb springs the stock front bar would probably be about perfect.
So a big bar in the front without stiffening the back will result in an understeering car. I would suggest either stock bars at both ends with the 100 lb springs or the stock bar (or adjustable slightly larger bar) in front with 140-165 lb springs. I would only go to a big bar if I was going to go with 180+ lb springs and I don't think that is what you are looking for.
This is what I have.
The front A arms have the tabs
I increased the rear springs to new 100 lb, I believe stock were around 80
New Bilsteins all around.
I have ordered the front reinforcements. I will install these while I decide on a bar.
My gut at this time tells me that a 19 or 22 will do the trick. I would not want to have to increase size at a later date. Want to do this once.
Also, it looks like that bars are just mechanical levers, so why not buy the cheapest bar and install the best drop links for adjustability, wouldn't you still come out ahead in the long run or do you risk a mismatch of parts fitting.
I don't see me putting a rear bar on the car.
Thanks
John
The front A arms have the tabs
I increased the rear springs to new 100 lb, I believe stock were around 80
New Bilsteins all around.
I have ordered the front reinforcements. I will install these while I decide on a bar.
My gut at this time tells me that a 19 or 22 will do the trick. I would not want to have to increase size at a later date. Want to do this once.
Also, it looks like that bars are just mechanical levers, so why not buy the cheapest bar and install the best drop links for adjustability, wouldn't you still come out ahead in the long run or do you risk a mismatch of parts fitting.
I don't see me putting a rear bar on the car.
Thanks
John
So, if you are using this as a street car, 19mm is the way to go.
You new shocks will also add stiffness all around, they are gas charged, not oil filled like the OEM shocks and struts.
With 180 lb rear springs, I have a 21mm front bar on full soft for the street.
I have adjustable drop links that only get adjusted for autox, then remain in one position for the street.
Nice part is after many years of playing with my suspension for both street and autox, I marked everything where I happen to like it.
Takes me 30 minutes to do the following for an autox
Drop rear ride height to autox setting
Drop front height
Move swaybar drop links to autox setting
Replace wheels and tires with autox setup.
So, my advice would be get a small bar that is adjustable.
I would absolutely advise you to get a front bar, no matter what you are doing.
Car does not perform correctly without at least a front bar, even the stock one works.
Used stock bars are in the classifieds, and many upgrade to larger bars, so you should be able to find one somewhere.
Rich
You new shocks will also add stiffness all around, they are gas charged, not oil filled like the OEM shocks and struts.
With 180 lb rear springs, I have a 21mm front bar on full soft for the street.
I have adjustable drop links that only get adjusted for autox, then remain in one position for the street.
Nice part is after many years of playing with my suspension for both street and autox, I marked everything where I happen to like it.
Takes me 30 minutes to do the following for an autox
Drop rear ride height to autox setting
Drop front height
Move swaybar drop links to autox setting
Replace wheels and tires with autox setup.
So, my advice would be get a small bar that is adjustable.
I would absolutely advise you to get a front bar, no matter what you are doing.
Car does not perform correctly without at least a front bar, even the stock one works.
Used stock bars are in the classifieds, and many upgrade to larger bars, so you should be able to find one somewhere.
Rich
The 914 was 13 or 15 mm. I don't remember which as I gave it away. Bruce Stone can measure it for you plus it is stamped into one end.
I have a stock bar on the front of my six conversion (2.7L) with 140 lb rear springs, Bilsteins w/ adjustable perches on the rear and Koni Reds up front (911 struts). It corners nicely.
I do have a 19 mm bar (911 front) that I will replace the stock one with someday. I also have a rear bar and have not installed it ... maybe some day.
Car is not tracked.
The best setup I ever put on a 914 was an SC front end complete with under body sway bar. Even though it was 22 or so mm, the way it is attached there is not as much deflection so the full rate is not realized. Flat as could be in the twisties.
No need for adjustable drop links on a street car other than making sure the bar is not preloaded in rest position. Just a costly, unnecessary option.
It's a torsion bar and the rate is determined by the diameter of the bar, length of the arms.
Most importantly, the bar is most effective when it is horizontal to the ground plane and the arms are vertical and equal (bar not preloaded). Most effective place to tie in the drop links is at the ball joint for maximum available deflection with suspension movement, but that generally doesn't happen except on full race cars.
Being able to adjust the arm length and keeping the drop links in a vertical plane is most effective, i.e., longer the arm for a given bar diameter, more torsional resistance.
On the race cars, we had multiple attachment points on the arm and commensurate attachment points on the "A" arm so that the arm could be lengthened while keeping the drop links vertical.
We had a rear bar set up in the same manner. On some tracks it was used and on others, we disconnected it. And yes, we used Detroit Locker rear ends.
I'm done!
I have a stock bar on the front of my six conversion (2.7L) with 140 lb rear springs, Bilsteins w/ adjustable perches on the rear and Koni Reds up front (911 struts). It corners nicely.
I do have a 19 mm bar (911 front) that I will replace the stock one with someday. I also have a rear bar and have not installed it ... maybe some day.
Car is not tracked.
The best setup I ever put on a 914 was an SC front end complete with under body sway bar. Even though it was 22 or so mm, the way it is attached there is not as much deflection so the full rate is not realized. Flat as could be in the twisties.
No need for adjustable drop links on a street car other than making sure the bar is not preloaded in rest position. Just a costly, unnecessary option.
It's a torsion bar and the rate is determined by the diameter of the bar, length of the arms.
Most importantly, the bar is most effective when it is horizontal to the ground plane and the arms are vertical and equal (bar not preloaded). Most effective place to tie in the drop links is at the ball joint for maximum available deflection with suspension movement, but that generally doesn't happen except on full race cars.
Being able to adjust the arm length and keeping the drop links in a vertical plane is most effective, i.e., longer the arm for a given bar diameter, more torsional resistance.
On the race cars, we had multiple attachment points on the arm and commensurate attachment points on the "A" arm so that the arm could be lengthened while keeping the drop links vertical.
We had a rear bar set up in the same manner. On some tracks it was used and on others, we disconnected it. And yes, we used Detroit Locker rear ends.
I'm done!
The most economical choice is a 19mm basic Weltmeister kit.
It won't have adjustable drop links but (as long as the car is well aligned) you won't notice the need for them unless you're setting up the car for competition.
Differences between products which affect price/quality include: materials (fabricated steel vs cnc machined aluminum), attachment of the arms to the bar(square is the easiest to make but worst for long life/precision, splined is the highest precision/most expensive to mfr), drop link design/attachment, bushing material & mount design, bling anodizing, ease of adjustment, plain drop link bushings vs heim rods, etc.
It won't have adjustable drop links but (as long as the car is well aligned) you won't notice the need for them unless you're setting up the car for competition.
Differences between products which affect price/quality include: materials (fabricated steel vs cnc machined aluminum), attachment of the arms to the bar(square is the easiest to make but worst for long life/precision, splined is the highest precision/most expensive to mfr), drop link design/attachment, bushing material & mount design, bling anodizing, ease of adjustment, plain drop link bushings vs heim rods, etc.
QUOTE(Racer Chris @ Aug 24 2013, 01:18 PM)
The most economical choice is a 19mm basic Weltmeister kit.
It won't have adjustable drop links but (as long as the car is well aligned) you won't notice the need for them unless you're setting up the car for competition.
Differences between products which affect price/quality include: materials (fabricated steel vs cnc machined aluminum), attachment of the arms to the bar(square is the easiest to make but worst for long life/precision, splined is the highest precision/most expensive to mfr), drop link design/attachment, bushing material & mount design, bling anodizing, ease of adjustment, plain drop link bushings vs heim rods, etc.
Thanks Chris,
Struggling with the Brand, quality, price, thing. Everyone agrees on the front bar, no-one ever talks about features, benefits of the various brands.
Ordered your bar reinforcements this morning. I will get them in. I have been cleaning the garage so I can start work on the car again, I gave it a rest for the summer.
QUOTE(wndsnd @ Aug 24 2013, 12:54 PM)
Everyone agrees on the front bar, no-one ever talks about features, benefits of the various brands.
I've dealt with just about every brand available.
Stock 914 (early 911)
911 SC & Carrera Underbody
Weltmeister (+ available upgrades)
Tarrett
Smart Racing
TRG
Tangerine
Each has its advantages/disadvantages and each has its best purpose (although I think TRG and Smart Racing are roughly equivalent).
Weltmeister is the entry level adjustable setup.
don't forget the old H&H sway bars
Hey John:
Good to see you are working on the car again..
I put a set of H&H bars on my car back in the mid 70's.
I was able to drive to the house of the owner of H&H
and pick them up at his front door. I bought the 19mm
front and was back in a couple of weeks to buy a 16mm rear bar.
Good to see you are working on the car again..
I put a set of H&H bars on my car back in the mid 70's.
I was able to drive to the house of the owner of H&H
and pick them up at his front door. I bought the 19mm
front and was back in a couple of weeks to buy a 16mm rear bar.
QUOTE(gandalf_025 @ Aug 25 2013, 10:36 AM)
Hey John:
Good to see you are working on the car again..
I put a set of H&H bars on my car back in the mid 70's.
I was able to drive to the house of the owner of H&H
and pick them up at his front door. I bought the 19mm
front and was back in a couple of weeks to buy a 16mm rear bar.
One of the last good days for the boat Al, Call me if you and Sue want to go out for a couple hours or so.......
978-270-4554
QUOTE(sixnotfour @ Aug 25 2013, 12:04 AM)
don't forget the old H&H sway bars
They go way back. The 914 front bars are sort of an adjustable version of the stock bar IIRC.
I haven't seen more than a couple of them installed on cars I've serviced over the years.
I was asked if I wanted to buy all the H&H inventory and tooling just a few years ago, but I want to focus on 914s and not spread my attention to other things.
Automotion sold em out west before Weltmeister came about.
A stock 15mm bar is my favorite for a street driven 914.
Ron, the 13 was a very early 911 bar. 16mm was the stock early 911 bar until the under-body bars came along. The last thru-body bar was the first 930 bar at 18mm... then all went to the under-body design.
I believe a 19mm Weltmesiter bar has adjustable arms and, they should be long enough to get a stock 15mm feel out of that geometry (set the drop links all the way to the end first and work your way in until you ruin your ride quality beyond what you like). That would probably be the easiest choice in that price range if you want adjust-ability. Otherwise, stock bars are great for street cars. Just enough to stop the roll and not enough to ruin your ride.
Ron, the 13 was a very early 911 bar. 16mm was the stock early 911 bar until the under-body bars came along. The last thru-body bar was the first 930 bar at 18mm... then all went to the under-body design.
I believe a 19mm Weltmesiter bar has adjustable arms and, they should be long enough to get a stock 15mm feel out of that geometry (set the drop links all the way to the end first and work your way in until you ruin your ride quality beyond what you like). That would probably be the easiest choice in that price range if you want adjust-ability. Otherwise, stock bars are great for street cars. Just enough to stop the roll and not enough to ruin your ride.
Click to view attachment
just bought this stock set up off evil bay
15mm with some new bushings, I will see when it arrives, how I did.
It will give me a start, you would think Porsche thought things out pretty good for up to 2.0 ltrs.....
I can always change the bar out and add adjustments later.
John
just bought this stock set up off evil bay
15mm with some new bushings, I will see when it arrives, how I did.
It will give me a start, you would think Porsche thought things out pretty good for up to 2.0 ltrs.....
I can always change the bar out and add adjustments later.
John
Once you get it installed you'll be scratching your head as to why they didn't mandate these things on "all" 914's. I think that's a good value with all of the bushings being new etc.
QUOTE(Eric_Shea @ Aug 26 2013, 12:35 AM)
I think that's a good value with all of the bushings being new etc.
Its an excellent value!
IMO a used stock bar is worth more than a new Weltmeister 19mm.
I wonder what size would be good for my sb converted teener for the 5 lug front? I'm using yellow konis and red mabachs with 225/50/16's front and 245/45/16's in back.
8/10ths neg camber frnt
1.5 neg camber rear
.16 toe in frnt
Just a hint of neg camber in the rear
4 degrees caster frnt
I'd love to use the stock 15mm (as they are cost effective) but I have a feeling a 19 would be best...doubt I need much adjustablity as it's a street car.
Car is new to me and so I'm just now figuring out how it feels.
Thing was so toe'd out when I got it the tires were squeelin. Jeez.
Thoughts?
8/10ths neg camber frnt
1.5 neg camber rear
.16 toe in frnt
Just a hint of neg camber in the rear
4 degrees caster frnt
I'd love to use the stock 15mm (as they are cost effective) but I have a feeling a 19 would be best...doubt I need much adjustablity as it's a street car.
Car is new to me and so I'm just now figuring out how it feels.
Thing was so toe'd out when I got it the tires were squeelin. Jeez.
Thoughts?
I have not received the bar or supports yet, but I decided to get started.
I found the template for the brackets on the Bird Tech Site.
I had to scale this as it did not print to scale originally.
To prep the inner well, I used a torch and steel wool to get off the undercoat. Then I used a die grinder to clean off the paint so now I have virgin steel to work with.
The factory really made this easy by embossing the area.
Click to view attachment
I also prepped the fuel tank area. Again, the factory stampings made this easy.
Click to view attachment
I am going to hold off drilling any holes till the brackets, bar, and mounts arrive. I might have to make some adjustments if they all do not perfectly match as they are coming from different sources.
The Bird says go to 1" on the large bar hole. This will allow over a 25 mm bar if wanted at some point so this seems reasonable to me. I started to cut the recess for the inner bracket and then decided to wait.
Parts will arrive tomorrow...
John
I found the template for the brackets on the Bird Tech Site.
I had to scale this as it did not print to scale originally.
To prep the inner well, I used a torch and steel wool to get off the undercoat. Then I used a die grinder to clean off the paint so now I have virgin steel to work with.
The factory really made this easy by embossing the area.
Click to view attachment
I also prepped the fuel tank area. Again, the factory stampings made this easy.
Click to view attachment
I am going to hold off drilling any holes till the brackets, bar, and mounts arrive. I might have to make some adjustments if they all do not perfectly match as they are coming from different sources.
The Bird says go to 1" on the large bar hole. This will allow over a 25 mm bar if wanted at some point so this seems reasonable to me. I started to cut the recess for the inner bracket and then decided to wait.
Parts will arrive tomorrow...
John
Here's what comes with the Smart/JWE front bar:
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
KT
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment
KT
Gees,
Just when I am starting to feel good about my decision to buy a used stock bar you show me this?
Very Sweet,
Double the bolts, looks like no welding, infinite adjustability, very sweet.
I bought an old diesel trawler. It only goes 7.5 kts. Everyone speeds by me. I have a saying, "It costs money to go fast" Same with the cars .....
But that sure looks like a nice set up....
John
Just when I am starting to feel good about my decision to buy a used stock bar you show me this?
Very Sweet,
Double the bolts, looks like no welding, infinite adjustability, very sweet.
I bought an old diesel trawler. It only goes 7.5 kts. Everyone speeds by me. I have a saying, "It costs money to go fast" Same with the cars .....
But that sure looks like a nice set up....
John
Yeah... that 31mm bar outta be "sweet-on-da-street" 
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