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Jerlle
I posted this question over on Pelican Parts and it has only gotten a bunch of views so far so I thought I'd post it here too. Here is the link to the post on Pelican Parts for reference.

I recently had a problem with the number 1 and 2 cylinders not firing. It occurred during a drive but I was able to limp home on 2 cylinders.

I checked the compression, which was good. I then checked if there was any fuel going through the injectors by having a friend crank the car with the injectors out of the manifold and pointed into a jar. Nothing came out. I had an extra complete injection manifold with wire harness so I decided I'd switch the harnesses (the one in the car was very brittle and cracked.

During the removal I broke the connector going to the air temp sender just under the plenum. So I ended up removing the manifolds and plenum to replace the sending unit. While everything was out I cleaned it up and switched the throttle body that had the single vacuum port with a dual vacuum port I had from the extra injection unit.

After installing everything back in the car it fired right up but then raced the engine up to about 3500 to 4000 RPM. I discovered I had neglected to hook up the air flow meter and did so. After connecting the electrical connector to the air flow meter and doing another check that everything had been installed and connected I started the car again. This time it would not catch and idle. It would fire just long enough to dab the throttle and keep it running by modulating the throttle. While holding the throttle to where it seemed it would stay steady at approximately 1500 RPM it would slowly move there as I increased throttle but tended to take off revving very quickly up to 3000 RPM. In other words the throttle seemed very touchy at that point.

The one thing that I am a little uncertain of is if the wires going to 86a, 86c, and 85 on the left side of the relay box (fuel pump side) are connected to the correct terminals as one or two of the wires had fallen out or broken during the operation. I installed them how I remembered they went and tired to double check with my book but the purpose of the wires (not the terminals, I understand that 85 is ground, 86c is the coil) are readily apparent to me. Since the car seemed to start (sort of) I didn't believe them to be a problem. The fuel pump is running fine as I can hear it and the car doesn't run out of fuel while keeping it running with the throttle.

I attempted to adjust timing and idle air flow to see if that would help but nothing seemed to do the trick. So there is where I am. Sorry for the long explanation but I hoped it would narrow down the possibilities of the current problem.
Mike Bellis
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This is the place to get your answers!

I can't help with this antique injection system, but there are experts on this site... smile.gif
Cap'n Krusty
Before we even begin to discuss this, you might as well stop the guess work on our behalf and tell us what engine and what FI system you have. Good questions have a better chance of getting helpful answers ......................

The Cap'n
Jerlle
QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Dec 28 2013, 09:12 AM) *

Before we even begin to discuss this, you might as well stop the guess work on our behalf and tell us what engine and what FI system you have. Good questions have a better chance of getting helpful answers ......................

The Cap'n


It is a 1.8 with L-jet. Sorry. Does D-jet even have an air flow meter?
type47
QUOTE(Jerlle @ Dec 28 2013, 09:33 AM) *

Does D-jet even have an air flow meter?


No but the Krustmeister is being his usual jolly self santa_smiley.gif

I read that in your discussion you seem to be referring to the dual relay connections: Here's s link that might be of some help

http://www.ratwell.com/technical/DoubleRelay.html

Cap'n Krusty
QUOTE(Jerlle @ Dec 28 2013, 09:33 AM) *

QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Dec 28 2013, 09:12 AM) *

Before we even begin to discuss this, you might as well stop the guess work on our behalf and tell us what engine and what FI system you have. Good questions have a better chance of getting helpful answers ......................

The Cap'n


It is a 1.8 with L-jet. Sorry. Does D-jet even have an air flow meter?


Doesn't matter, we need to know. Could be a 912E, or even a T1 or T2, for that matter. Even a 280Z, an Alfa Romeo, or a 928. All the same, all different. NOW we have a baseline. In a stock L-jet system, the fuel pump doesn't run when the AFM isn't connected. You have one problem there. There is no FI related "air temperature sensor" anywhere other than inside the AFM, so we have a questionable repair there. In a D-jet system, intake air leaks, up to a point, make the engine idle faster. In an L-jet system, the engine won't start at all with even seemingly minor air leaks. There's a problem there. In swapping the components, did you recognize the fact that '74 and '75 L-jet systems are somewhat different? '74s use dual vacuum controls, 'most '75s use single vacuum control. There's likely to be a difference in the throttle switches, and the AFMs use different wiring. Can't just mix 'n match. IIRC, even the dual relays are different. If 2 injectors aren't firing, the FIRST thing I would look at is the resistor pack, then all the system grounds. If you didn't replace the intake air hoses at the runners, do so, as well as the injector seals. Check the throttle cable. If you'd like a copy of the factory L-jet troubleshooting manual, PM me with an e-mail address that will accept large PDF files. Be sure it works, 'cause I'll only send it ONCE. Once you've undone all the damage and it runs, set the timing using the L-jet timing procedure, which is completely different from the D-jet procedure.

The Cap'n
Jerlle
QUOTE(type47 @ Dec 28 2013, 10:04 AM) *

QUOTE(Jerlle @ Dec 28 2013, 09:33 AM) *

Does D-jet even have an air flow meter?


No but the Krustmeister is being his usual jolly self santa_smiley.gif

I read that in your discussion you seem to be referring to the dual relay connections: Here's s link that might be of some help

http://www.ratwell.com/technical/DoubleRelay.html


Thank you for the link. I found similar information but your link seems to explain it much better. The "vehicle wiring harness" is the only one in question. The connector on the Fuel Injection harness is good and there is only one way to plug it in. The only three connectors on the vehicle wiring harness that are of question are the smaller ones which should be 86a, 86c, and 85. 85 is ground and if that wasn't connected properly I cannot imagine I'd get as good of results as I am currently. That leaves 86a (starter) and 86c (coil). If those were revered I'm sure I would not get the results I am getting currently either. I am going to rule out the double relay as an issue then from this.
timothy_nd28
Seems like multiple issues going on here. Do you own a multimeter? Can you post a pic of your multimeter and a pic of the dual relay?
Jerlle
QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Dec 28 2013, 10:17 AM) *

QUOTE(Jerlle @ Dec 28 2013, 09:33 AM) *

QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Dec 28 2013, 09:12 AM) *

Before we even begin to discuss this, you might as well stop the guess work on our behalf and tell us what engine and what FI system you have. Good questions have a better chance of getting helpful answers ......................

The Cap'n


It is a 1.8 with L-jet. Sorry. Does D-jet even have an air flow meter?


Doesn't matter, we need to know. Could be a 912E, or even a T1 or T2, for that matter. Even a 280Z, an Alfa Romeo, or a 928. All the same, all different. NOW we have a baseline. In a stock L-jet system, the fuel pump doesn't run when the AFM isn't connected. You have one problem there. There is no FI related "air temperature sensor" anywhere other than inside the AFM, so we have a questionable repair there. In a D-jet system, intake air leaks, up to a point, make the engine idle faster. In an L-jet system, the engine won't start at all with even seemingly minor air leaks. There's a problem there. In swapping the components, did you recognize the fact that '74 and '75 L-jet systems are somewhat different? '74s use dual vacuum controls, 'most '75s use single vacuum control. There's likely to be a difference in the throttle switches, and the AFMs use different wiring. Can't just mix 'n match. IIRC, even the dual relays are different. If 2 injectors aren't firing, the FIRST thing I would look at is the resistor pack, then all the system grounds. If you didn't replace the intake air hoses at the runners, do so, as well as the injector seals. Check the throttle cable. If you'd like a copy of the factory L-jet troubleshooting manual, PM me with an e-mail address that will accept large PDF files. Be sure it works, 'cause I'll only send it ONCE. Once you've undone all the damage and it runs, set the timing using the L-jet timing procedure, which is completely different from the D-jet procedure.

The Cap'n


It appears that a previous owner must have swapped in some or all 75 parts as this car is supposed to be a 74 but had the single vac control. As I was thinking about this last night after I ran out of daylight. I decided today I'd switch back to the single vac control throttle body and see if I created this problem from something as simple as that. I wasn't planning on taking off the runners so I didn't have new hoses. I will source some of those this week to eliminate any vacuum problems. I did replace the injector seals (both sizes, apparently a previous owner never installed the smaller seemingly more important ones). Throttle cable is free and unbound and returns to closed position on its own.

During some reading yesterday I saw something that mentioned the resistors for the injectors (I believe it was the electrical schematic in a Haynes manual). I am not familiar with their location so if the L-jet trouble shooting guide identifies this that would be great. I'll send you a PM shortly.

I am familiar with what I believe to be the L-jet timing procedure which is done at idle with the vacuum control lines removed from the distributor.

I'll let you know what happens with the single vac control TB re-installed.

Edit:

As far as the "air temp sensor". It was the small device that connects to the FI harness under the plenum (not the aux air flow). Nothing goes in or out of it other than the connector so I assumed it was a temp sensor. Regardless of what it is it was replaced with a used component from an extra 1.8 engine and connected to the same spot on the FI harness.
Jerlle
I got the car to run again at idle as good as I've ever seen it after switching back to the single vac control TB. However there may or may not have been a loose connection to the aux air valve headbang.gif . I may have knocked a poorly connected hose loose while changing the TB but still headbang.gif .

So not I have 3 cylinders firing. The number 1 cylinder is still not firing. I have spark to the end of the plug wire. I pulled the plug and did one more compression check which is good at 120 psi. The plug does not look the nice brown/tan color of a working cylinder so this may have been like this for quite some time as I changed the plugs, wires, and points about 4 or 5 months ago along with a valve adjustment.

I pulled both the 1 and 2 injectors. I discovered that both injectors work but only with the connector going to the number 2 injector. So it seems that the number 1 injector is not getting a signal to fire. I've heard/read about resistors between the ECU and the injectors. Where do I locate these? Are they something to replace? Is that even a suspect?

I appreciate all the help.
Jerlle
It seems the resistor pack on a 1.8 L-jet is located under the battery tray near the ECU. Now I just need to fine the proper way to trouble shoot the resistor pack.
type47
QUOTE(Jerlle @ Dec 28 2013, 01:04 PM) *

Now I just need to fine the proper way to trouble shoot the resistor pack.


continuity and resistance. continuity for no open current paths and resistance for ... well, resistance. resistance value is a couple of ohms ... 3-4 ohms if I recall..
in the plug for the resistor pack there are connectors for a resistor for each injector. simple resistance measurement with a DVM; one lead of DVM to terminal, the other to the case which is ground. it should measure 5-6 ohms. no resistance value probably means open circuit/broken wire
Cap'n Krusty
The general failure mode is a broken wire, and it's likely to be readily visible. I have a couple for sale. All I have to do is find them ......

The Cap'n
Jerlle
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Dec 28 2013, 10:29 AM) *

Seems like multiple issues going on here. Do you own a multimeter? Can you post a pic of your multimeter and a pic of the dual relay?



I do have a multimeter. The dual relay looks just like the one in the link that was provided above. I'll take some pictures if you think it is necessary but I don't believe this has anything to do with the dual relay anymore.

To summary briefly, the engine runs and idles fine. Number 1 cylinder is not firing because it is getting no gas. The injector is fine since I tested it on another connector. It seems it is either in the harness (seems unlikely since it is a pretty nice looking harness and I have found no cracks in it. It seems that the problem might lie in the FI resistor pack but I do not have a spare and haven't found the proper way to trouble shoot the resistor pack for a 1.8 L-jet. I have located a source for a new one locally but it is $96 for something I am unsure of.

If you know something I don't and really think the dual relay could be the problem I will certainly take and upload the pictures.
timothy_nd28
I lost interest in helping. Best of luck
Jerlle
QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Dec 28 2013, 02:07 PM) *

The general failure mode is a broken wire, and it's likely to be readily visible. I have a couple for sale. All I have to do is find them ......

The Cap'n


Your right. I pulled the resistor pack and one the wires is broken from the corresponding resistor. I might try to cobble the thing together until I have a replacement for it. Hopefully I'll have a 4 cylinder car again soon!
Cap'n Krusty
Lemme know if you need one of mine. It could be in the mail Monday.

The Cap'n
Jerlle
QUOTE(Cap'n Krusty @ Dec 28 2013, 04:36 PM) *

Lemme know if you need one of mine. It could be in the mail Monday.

The Cap'n


I soldered it back together and it seems to be working well now. I wouldn't mind having an extra one and I am putting together another 1.8 L-jet piece-by-piece currently. I'm taring down the engine right now. Feel free to email me the details since you have it now.

Thanks for all the help today.
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