Hi, would love some recommendations regarding upgrading my brakes w/o braking the bank so to speak.

I recently upgraded to a 911 master brake pump or is it know as a cylinder and stainless steel brake lines. Changes my brake fluid reservoir to a new OEM Porsche one so the front trunks looks nice and new.

So before I go rebuilding and making my current calipers all nice and shiny, what other options do I have to improve my braking performance?

Can I go 911 brake calipers w/o having to change my whole front suspension to 911 suspension?

I appreciate everyone's advice.

I will post pictures soon, my car has been a two year journey and quite a story to get her where she is today. Many ups and downs, and almost 100% restored, bigger bored 2.0 now 2.4, new interior, paint, konis, springs, stereo, the works... Originally 52,000 now 55,000 mile original car. 75 2.0 now with back dated bumpers and many other items, so I call it Zambezi green , although a 75 was known as Forrest green. Finally proud to drive her around town.

Been a hobby, passion, obsession and many reasons for past arguments regarding my income investments.

Thanks for your recommendations.

19mm reduces stopping power. It was used with the larger pistons on 911 brake calipers. SS brake lines are also a downgrade compared to dot rubber hoses. All stock oem is your best bet unless you spend big $.

Better pads is the best upgrade. Nothing wrong with using a 19mm master. Mainly changes the pedal travel and feel of the brakes. Does not reduce or improve stopping power. Stainless lines mainly have being appeal. No affect on braking. You could add 911 M calipers for solid rotors and have more pad area and larger pistons in the front.

On the front you have to change the struts if you want to go to 911 rotors. The spindle on the 914 4 lug struts is smaller than the one on the 911 5 lug. There use to be bearings you could buy with the proper ID and OD to adapt the 911 hubs to the 914 struts, but they discontinued the inboard bearing a few years back.


On the rear, you can bolt on any 911 caliper you want, but you will lose the park brake. You can add the 911 style park brake, but that is more expense.

If you have a 4 cylinder, and want to keep it a 4 lug, then just get a set of rebuilt calipers from Eric, buy some new rotors and some good pads, and make sure you replace the flexible lines. The stopping power is far better than almost anything made in the 70s, and it will outbrake a lot of modern cars with the stock brakes.

Better tires. If you can lock up your brakes, they have done everything they can for you in that application. To slow down quicker, you need better tires at that point. (If you can't lock your brakes up, your brake system has problems that should be fixed.)

Remember--brakes stop the wheels. Tires stop the car.

--DD

Braided stainless lines do look pretty but the good ones also reduce hose flex and support the internals. Firms up the pedal somewhat and protects the outer sheath. I've had them on a couple of cars and really like the feel, don't mind the bling neither IMHO.

I totally appreciate everyone's experience and suggestions. Will print this and speak to my mechanic in the morning. I owe everyone pictures, and look forward to meeting additional 914 members (the good ones, most are on this site) in the future.

Thanks again.

I've never seen the braided line dismissed like I have here. Is this from people using crappy braided lines? There are good ones out there.

I think that it's because you can't see the condition of the inner portion of the hose, so people leave them on thinking they are good still when they are cracking internally.

Nothing wrong with new stainless lines. that the glaring use is the internal condition. They are intended for off road use. Guys that race are less likely to leave them on the car until the inside turns into mush and they are cracked on the outer surface under the braiding.

I would contact

http://www.pmbperformance.com/teener.html

They can help you will all your needs.

Terry

I'll add a BIG +1 on PMB Performance. Eric can definitely help you out.

PMB Performance

I currently have stock rear calipers, and the fronts I upgraded to 911 Struts and M calipers so I could run vented rotors. The front upgrades weren't a big cost if you shop around the classifieds and watch for fair prices. I also run a 19mm Master Cylinder, and Pagid Orange pads. That combo works great.

Here is my new setup from PMB. Not the least cost option.... But overtime I'm going for the 914- 6 GT setup and saved up for awhile to make this happen. They go on later this summer. Still need to get the rear vented rotors and then my shopping list is complete.

Front S Calipers

Click to view attachment

Rear Alloy 914-6 GT with emergency brakes

Click to view attachment

really good pads, like the R4S
and good tires
new quality fluid too

If I follow your though process, your 914-6 GT will have 17mm master ?
Bdstone's advice is spot on.

No, my gt has brake calipers with larger pistons, just like Porsche did on the real 914-6. I'm not an engineer but I do know fluid pressure will decrease when you increase the mc piston diameter. Try going to a 23mm mc on your otherwise stock setup and tell me what happens. There isn't a big difference going to a 19mm mc but there is some, otherwise the pedal "feel" would stay the same. A 15mm mc would provide even greater pressure to the calipers but at the expense of softer pedal and greater travel. As jake would say- or Eric, it's all in the combo.
I'll stand by my statement that a larger mc is a downgrade.

Main advantage to the 19mm master cylinder is cost new for new... The 17mm is much more expensive if you can even find one. 19mm Changes pedal travel, feel, and effort. In a week, you won't remember...

To the OP: what are you trying to accomplish/what are you not satisfied with? If you're just looking for a firmer pedal, the 19mm mc and an otherwise tip top stock braking system is more than adequate. If you're an agressive driver, hard on brakes and heat them up, then you'll want to look at "bigger" (pistons & rotors). Just a matter of cost at that point.

I think the best thing you can do for your brakes is simply keep them well bled and change the fluid regularly. Unless you want to spend a lot of money, use Porsche's engineering expertise when they first designed the system.

As one that has had a braided brake line fail on him (thankfully not on the track in an emergency situation), I am a firm believer in the original DOT lines. I think most of the sponginess in the brake system feel is due to air in the system (they can be a real bear to bleed properly), and perhaps also some flexing of the brake master cylinder mounting sheet metal.

I hardly agree that a call to Eric at PMB will lead you on the right path. Dave's comments on the tires stopping the car is also very wise advice.

There hardly any difference between the 19 and the 17. Big overblown Internet whoodoo.

Get a 19, they're cheaper and will probably feel better in the long run.

I removed the braided lines on my car after changing to 911 front end. While working on the front end, as I moved the strut from lock to lock (left to right), I noticed the stiff braided line was bending the mounting tab on the chassis and also bending the steel line as well.

Can't believe we're talking about braided stainless steel brake hoses and the Cap'n hasn't chimed in. Is he OK ? Someone check on him.

Ok, I just have to ask....

Why would Porsche Engineers specify a down graded, larger 19mm Master Cylinder in the 914-6 build specs?

I'm open to all opinions, I'm just trying to understand the logic that underlies your statement...

Because the 914-6 has larger pistons in the calipers to maintain a similar ratio with the larger mc.

Funny thing is, back when I ran a bike shop, I used to set up the brakes to have a firm feel at the lever because thats what buyers liked for the parking lot test ride. I set my own bikes to have a very soft (some said spongy) feel at the lever but a high mechanical leverage at the rim or disk so it took a light effort to stop. Not only was the effort less, but it was easier to modulate. There is more to braking than just being able to lock the wheels. Modulation is the amount of force you have to work with before the brakes lock up. Maybe not a big deal for straight line stopping on a dry road but throw in slippery conditions and the ability to modulate your brakes more than an on/off switch becomes very important.

...and saving $30 isn't a very good reason to go with a lesser performing part

hardly

heartily.

I actually think a 19 performs better on a stock Teener. I like the harder pedal feel and don't notice any extra effort.

Right, you like the feel. And you don't notice the extra effort but you do have to press harder on the pedal to get the same stopping performance as the smaller mc. Maybe just 12 percent more. Not a big deal. But not everyone wants to "upgrade" to a less powerfull braking system. Its sort of like a loud Monza muffler. Sounds/feels better using the butt dyno but in reality it make less power.

It's 25% more, BTW. also 20% less distance traveled by the pedal.

19^2 / 17^2 ~= 1.25

--DD

Finally some actually facts!! Thanks Dave...

The 19mm is not a downgrade, and certainly not "lesser performing part"

I think the incorrectly perceived issue of "lesser performance" is due to the fact the 19mm requires more pedal pressure to achieve the same effective braking force (fluid displaced from the Master Cylinder to the Calipers) as compared to the 17mm. At the same time, the 19mm has shorter pedal travel than the 17mm. They can both apply the same pressure to the Calipers.

A good layman's analogy is Harbor Freight Floor Jacks. The basic model takes many 'easy' pumps of the handle to raise a 914 off the ground, while the 'racing' version takes 6 'hard' pumps. Sure the racing version handle is harder to push down, but they both can raise the car up. The racing version is not a downgrade or "lesser performing part".

It's Basic Fluid Mechanics. Same applies to Master Cylinders.

That being said, I also agree 'feel', and the ability to control brake pressure modulation is very important. And with that in mind, I'm in agreement and would not put a 23mm Master cylinder in a 914 with stock brake calipers.

I just don't agree that the 19mm is a downgrade or "lesser performing part" with stock 914 brake calipers, just because of the additional pedal pressure.


Now after all of this, back to the original topic

I agree with everyone else who states that the stock 914 brake system is very good, and performs very well. Also agree that if it is in good mechanical condition, and has fresh upgraded fluid such as ATE, Motul, etc, Good Pads such as Porterfields, and good tires, there might be no need to upgrade at all, especially if it is primarily a street car.

The only reason I upgraded my fronts to 911 M Calipers is because 25 minute run sessions at Laguna can really be hard on your brakes and despite good fluid, good pads, and adding cooling scoops, removing the splash shields, etc I could still easily overheat the 914 brakes to the point they would fade horribly. If I wasn't doing regular track days I probably never would have upgraded the stock 914 brakes.

This ought to be on some universal mandatory reading list right up there with "righty - tighty, lefty - loosy" and "always assume a gun is loaded".

However, Greg just (indirectly) pointed out the major shortcoming in my statement. I said "in that application". Greg mentions Laguna, which is notoriously hard on brakes. As in, puts a lot of heat into them, without a whole lot of cooling time available.

When you are putting a whole lot of heat into the brakes, and they don't have much chance to cool down, larger brakes can help. Physically larger rotors give you more heat sink, plus more area to radiate heat away. Ventilated brakes run air through the middle, carrying heat away faster. Larger calipers have more mass and more fluid, meaning more heat sink again.

But about the only people who use their brakes in that sort of fashion are doing it on the Big Track.

--DD

Like I said... way too much Internet yak, yak, yak, I'm right, you're wrong talk about this IMO.

17 vs. 19, it really doesn't matter. I don't really care what it pans out to in volumetric equations, it's negligible when you put your foot into it.

I never said a 19mm was an "upgrade" in the performance of the brake system. I simply like it better than the 17mm and, the fact remains as Dave pointed out; if you can lock your calipers they've "done all that they can do." If you can't (lock stock calipers) then the next thing I'd do is go through your brake system.

The only "real" way to upgrade a stock 914 brake system is to $pend thou$and$. Probably more than you spent on your actual 914. Then we have to go back to the point; if you can lock your calipers they've "done all that they can do." That would be "thou$and$ wasted.

The fastest 914's I've ever seen are using S-Calipers up front and 911/914-6 calipers in the rear on 20mm rotors. They drive faster than you, harder than you and longer than you (unless your name is Frank Beck).

Dave - You're statement still holds true in that scenario. In heavy track usage, stock brakes will overheat, fade, and then you will not be able to lock them (at least not with out excessive pedal effort). Maybe some elaboration/clarification is useful to apply it to certain real world situations but your statement is pretty much axiomatic.

So to sum it up...if you're not tracking the car - there is really no point of putting on bigger brakes? How about even for a 6 conversion?

I always upgrade the brakes on a six conversion. The extra weight and horsepower in a six makes the solid disk brake rotors marginal.

I did overkill for the brakes on my six, but a set of M calipers from a 911 on the front, and 914/6 calipers and vented rotors on the back would be good for a mild six conversion.

Wise advice....how about 993 Big Reds on the whole car

That would certainly be an option. But consider this:

A 993 Carrera weighs 3020 lbs. a Boxster weighs 2880 lbs. A 914 weighs 1984 lbs. The brakes on the Carrera are balanced for a rear engined car. The brakes on a Boxster are balanced for a mid engined car. Considering that the weight differential between a Boxster and a 914 is almost 1000 lbs, and the Boxster brakes are easier to find and much cheaper than 993 Carrera brakes, and you can buy a bolt on kit for them, I think the Boxster brakes are a much better solution for big brakes on a 914.

No need for vented rear rotors. Even on the track. Wasted weight

My first post. It’s to a nine year old thread. Not expecting anyone to notice, but more of a practice post. It looks like if I want to have really good breaking on my project 914/4, stroked and bored to 2.4L, I will just rebuild the stock system. I want to retain the stock 4 bolt pattern. Since there are lots of low cost brake upgrade options for my old air-cooled VWs, many of us, like myself, figure there must be something out there we don’t know about to help stop. However, those upgrades are usually from drum to disc brakes. It makes sense that if you can lock it up you are already good to go. Thanks for the clarification here!