For instance...

A clean 1973 car with nice paint and interior, and a 2.2 liter six cylinder porsche engine installed.

How do you calculate the value on a car like that?

The only accurate measure of the value on a car like that is the price at which the seller and the buyer agree. How badly does the seller want to get rid of the car? How much is the buyer willing to pay to get it?

The Cap'n

with the Cap't

I'd only add that value and price are not always equal.

My definition of value is what the sum of the parts are worth to you. If the seller wants to dump it and run (estate sale, etc) you could agree on a price that is a very good value to you. Or you could find somebody who never wants to sell his baby for a market price since he values it unrealistically.

Just sent you a PM.

What intake system does it have? Mfi, Webbers?
Those early engines are bringing some big bucks. Get the serial numbers off the engine to identify exactly what it is. Have seen conversions sell for $8000-$25000.

I have never seen a conversion (not a real six) sell for more than the sum of the parts. Typically less and that does not include labor and body work. Unless you have lots of time and talent, your always better off buying someone's completed project. The problem is the entry fee. I paid $5k for my 75 back in 86. I then put $10k into it just for the 2.7 motor, carbs, brakes, tank, etc. I then put in a 3.2 for another $5k. Sold the completed car for $16k back in 2005 and then bought it back in 2009 for $21k. For $21k it had steel flairs, fuel cell, LSD and racing trans with cooler. I now just spent another $10k for a 916 trans. Sold the 901 for the price of the parts.
When my car is done, I know its not worth the sum of the parts. Only stock concourse cars are worth some bucks. Conversion cars is the right buyer, which are few and are between, because most 914 buyers are CSOB's. I think this has to do with the cheap entry price for a POS.

I would say $8k for a 2.2 with webers and non restored faded paint, little rust car. Up to $20k for a really nice car with MFI and maybe up to $25k for a ground up restoration and everything is new. Rebuilt engine, rubber, etc.

Conversions will be following the six prices. Really well done conversions with desirable engines and steel flares will be tailgating six prices. 3.0 engined conversions don't get the respect they deserve. That's a really great engine. 3.2 and 3.6 engined conversions can be really great cars...

Paul Sayegh's 3.6 conversion is insured for $75K or more if I recall correctly. Jim Patrick says the car could not be reproduced for less than $100K. I believe him. These conversions that were done without compromise will sell for much more than $25k. Believing different is folly...

I could have done some of the work on my conversion, but lately, I have much more money than time. I wrote $16K in checks most of it to Original Customs. That doesn't include the car which was according to some idiots, a rusty piece of shit and others, the most rust free 914 they had ever seen. You couldn't buy mine for $25K and that has nothing to do with my relationship with the car.

No conversion is going to be really cheap and you get what you pay for. You can easily spend $10K correcting a poorly done job.

My car is a 2.2 conversion and I am intimately aware of how much it costs to complete one of these projects...even when you are very capable and can do a lot of the work yourself.

Interesting topic. I'll be putting my '72 on eBay tomorrow just to see what kind of response I get. My car has a 1965 911 engine....the real value is in the engine.

I'm looking forward to seeing what happens. In all honesty, I really don't care or even want it to sell. It's a great way to get a feel for value, though!

That's a pretty good idea. I know that a lot of value on cars is sadly visual. If it has nice wheels, nicer paint and good interior you get tremendous response.

I am curious about this too. I have around $35k in mine and it's only a 3.2.
I have not seen one in our classifieds go for more than the cost of the parts + what the car is worth stock. I will start watching eBay adds.

Great info guys. Thank you.

When I get more info on the car I'll pass it along to get a better
idea of what I'm looking at it.

Another way to look at it is to guesstimate what the car cost to put together and then factor down to 40-60%. As noted above if it's got rare and valuable parts, like real 46mm Webers, 908 brakes or whatnot, that will skew it a bit higher.

I've been down this road before and realistically I know if I ever sold my car I'd only get around half what I've put into it -- and that is not including my hundreds of personal labor hours.

X2

Here is my 3.2 you could not build it today for under 50k

good topic

it is an axiom in classic car circles that most are not sold for the price ( "invested") it cost to be built & painted - if you go to the auctions you can see that almost every weekend

many Porsche project cars can be parted out for more than the value as whole cars - if ya have the time to sit on the large stuff & wait

at any given time there is just ONE guy who wants your perfect turn-key car - "right now" and who will pay a premium to get it

.....but there are still those "CSOB" legions who are certain they can build that $300 rescued hulk into a $100K 3.6 - who may selectively buy your parts instead of that finished car

Hope springs eternal - after all the entire instruction manual is online on this site with color pictures - can't be that hard, eh?

.

.

so i guess you will be putting a fairly high "reserve" on it then?

btw, i get now how these things can cost so much - after spending almost 2k on labor for what i probably could have done myself if i'd had a lift and more time, it shows me that i've already done almost $10k worth of work (half that at least is a low estimate of labor) on a car i bought for $2k 5 years ago, so i can see how it can get out of hand - with that said as Bill says, the value is in both having a rust free car, and the quality of the conversion and type of engine you get, - i am still kicking myself for passing on a /6 car that i could have had for close to $15k. that will be a $30k car soon, if not already ------

:deleted: duplicate post

Well, the car I was interested wasn't documented so I passed.

Question though... Why would anyone in their right mind spend
$100k to convert a car when you could buy an original for $50 to 80k?

I don't understand the logic there....

You are using the terms "right mind" and "logic" with 914 people. Just stop right there.

Conversion cars can perform significantly better than stock. So it depends if you want a superior driving car as an end result or a superior collector car as an end result.

Many conversions can run circles around stock cars

Other reasons people build vs. buy:

1) They don't know any better
2) They want to spread the work/expense over a longer period of time
3) They have a unique vision of the end result they want, and do not see anything available or affordable that is close enough to that
4) They enjoy doing the work, learning, and meeting great people along the way. The journey is at least as fun as the destination, if not more, for some folks.

I know in my case all 4 have applied to some degree.

It certainly was #4 for me, I always enjoyed working on cars, and doing a conversion was always something I wanted to do. If I had the energy, I'd love to do more of them, though I also agree that it doesn't make financial sense.

However, a bit of garage time is healthier and not as expensive as sitting on an analyst's couch, so the benefits achieved are priceless!

build vs buy is always an interesting discussion because there is no right answer: it all depends on the answer to the question - 'Why do you want it?'

Chris brings up a lot of good points above.

If you care about authenticity, then probably buy unless you have lots of time and resources to find all the 'right' stuff.

If you care about performance, uniqueness, specialty use (Autocross, race, etc), or personalization, you can go either route. Buying is normally cheaper, but in my experiences, in the end, you end up spending a lot more than the initial "buy". The car was built to someone elses standards and vision, most likely not the same as yours.

We have two very heavily modified/customized cars that we built from the ground up...and have WAY, WAY, WAAAAY more in each than we could ever hope to get out of them. But..they are exactly as we want them, not how someone else wanted them.

to answer your original question, conversions value & price are usually based on the quality of the workmanship, and what the buyer is looking for. For ME, a very nicely done 6 conversion is worth much more (again, to ME) than a very nice stock 4. In fact, depending on what's been done, I might even opt for a very nicely done conversion over an original 6...

Well...it's out there and I've had a bunch inquiries already.

Most of the interest is driven by the engine, I'm sure. With a genuine 1965 911 engine the rest of the excellent aspects of the car are overshadowed by the potential value of the engine for those with a '65 needing the "proper" engine.

I've already had some interesting trade offers for the engine alone (documented rebuilt 3.0 plus cash, supposedly nice 944 Turbo, and someone even offered $7K for just the shortblock)...we'll see as the week progresses.

Bottom line has been said before but in my humble opinion, those of us who venture down the conversion road are doing it because we all want something more out of our 914's. Handling and more power come to mind. Then there's the personal touches that can cost big bucks with little to no return. Case in point, my A/C that I just put in my Renegade. After three 914's and one beautiful 71 Sixer (Original). I don't expect to get a return in investment on the A/C wallet wise but now I can tootle along slightly above idle and in cool comfort doing 80.

Biggest challenge we have is matching a buyer to our style. People hate ebay but I have had really good luck. Having a million people see your item get's you closer to that buyer.

BTW, I got an email several years ago that the guy I sold my 71 Irish Green Sixer to was in a real bad accident with it. I was a member of roadglue back then. The guy was from Colorado and worked in Russia. Anyone know the fate of this car?

Dave

it got fixed at great, great expense and sold again
ferg has all of the details if you contact him.

I can honestly say the interest for conversions is very high. My ebay auction is still active and I have had a LOT of interest and several interesting trade options. Some are downright ludicrous (wanting a straight trade for a high mileage early Boxster) to interesting ones (1990 Lotus Esprit). This has been fun. Who knows, something worth pursuing may present itself!

Was that the one that was rear-ended?

This happens everyday in every corner of the car world. In fact, why would anyone buy a $100,000 Brand New Car when they can buy the same car used for $65k

Touche




With that logic in mind, why use a 914 at all? I could buy a RS America for 50k that has tremendous performance, will continue to appreciate, and be extremely saleable when the time comes.




How much is the complete engine actually worth? Cases from this era generally run around 3 to 4k.




That's for folks that have more money than sense. I've bought a number of late model porsches. A couple with less than 20k miles and under 2 years old for more than 30-40% off the sticker price. Unless you're the guy that just loves to spec a car and have the "delivery experience", I don't think it's worth it. I bought a 997 GT3 with 8k miles that was under 2 years old and got it for almost 50k under the sticker. Bonkers...

Last year I had two offers (one for $6K and one for $7K) for just the "short block". Maybe they were just desperate

As 911s have soared in Price, the Motors have followed

Yeah, I'd say so. $7k for a case is silly money. Especially when more often than not you'll probably spend another $4k having the case clean and machined for improved oil flow. I saw a couple cases on ebay recently for around $4k.

Unless you account for the fact that mine is a proven running engine that they could have heard run prior to buying

Keep in mind that the stock 6s were 2.0l cars. The guys that put the 2.2 or 3.0 or 3.2 or 3.6 in there are doing something that no knowledgeable 914-6 owner would ever do.

If you want a car to concourse, buy a 914-6. If you want a car to drive the shit out of...convert a 4cyl.

...at least that's my logic. (Coming from a guy that's spent $35K+ on a Subie conversion.)

If I were building a conversion (which I may do at the end of the year since I already have a 911 engine at Scotty's and most of the parts) I would certainly try make it as close to a real 6 as possible. With the price of real 6's getting very high, properly done "tribute" cars will be following right behind.

The only caveat will be that I think you can get away with bigger motors and various performance mods (that don't affect cosmetics) since it's a tribute and not the real deal. I can see a very high quality cleanly done tribute bringing $50K very soon. Of course, it will cost more than $50K to build such a car...

With that logic in mind, why use a 914 at all? I could buy a RS America for 50k that has tremendous performance, will continue to appreciate, and be extremely saleable when the time comes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
because to me the car is not an investment
I don't want an RSA

I've owned my teener since 1985
and my race car weighs in just over 1800lbs
try to get an rsa to that weight....

my car will outhandle an rsa
my car is vintage eligible across the us
the rsa is not
my car (all of my old 914's also) were built with the help of my father... they are a memory, they are a good time

I have well over 100K into 914's
but its how I choose to spend the money
doesn't matter a bit that the rsa is a better investment

brant

A 1965 case is aluminum and carries a higher price because of it's inherent strength over a magnesium case ( plus the fact that it can add a ton of value to a valuable, collectible early car if it matches)

I checked with Ron Zitza at Zotz Racing yesterday. A running, documented 1965 911 engine with Webbers should cost about $8-10K.

Agreed on the aluminum over mag. I had to replace the case in the AL recently. I'm running a 2 liter 6 cylinder 911 engine in it per my racing classes in HSR and SVRA. These 2 liter 911 aluminum engine cases go for 3k. The mag cases are practically free in comparison but won't hold up in a racing application. I guess a premium could be had over the 3k if you find a guy who's restoring a 911 and that engine obviously didn't match but was at least in the same run.

So...are you making an offer or just stalking me?

You're in my thread, remember?

Just kidding! You've got my interest. Just not at your asking price based on my discussion with Ron

So what do you guys think this one is worth?

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=219849&hl=

Should Cost and Would Cost are 2 different things unless Ron has one sitting there. I bet if he had one sitting there the price might be $15-17k

I agree...I had an offer this morning from Germany for $12K for the engine. There's a big gap on what things should cost and what they are actually bringing. The engine itself isn't that big a deal. However, if you have a really nice '65 with the wrong engine in it a correct engine with appropriate range serial number will probably add MUCH more than $12K to value of that car. The return on that $12K would be significant.

I'd be on my way to Canada. $16.5 for a solid conversion is definitely worthy of a road trip.

I thought that car had sold? It looked like a nice car. That wrinkled trunk pan may have scared a few....

Doubt it... Ron has been working in this market for over 40 years. He knows what he's talking about and is very fair. I've bought a number of parts from him that were priced very reasonably.

You can price things any way you want. As evidenced by the vast number of overpriced 914's that just sit and sit and sit, never selling. The silver 2 liter four in the Hamptons for north of 30k is a perfect example. There's a bunch more just like it.

If you're not in a rush and don't care if it sells, sky's the limit on pricing. Just don't expect to sell it in a hurry. However, at the end of the day, actual value is what a buyer is willing to pay.

At $17k, I expect that motor to be a fully documented zero hour fully stock engine built by an industry expert.

For example...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911-engine...%3D231246450867

Or this.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911E-engin...223&vxp=mtr

Or this.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Porsche-911S-engin...f24&vxp=mtr

Just sayin....