I'm working on stripping down my 2.0L out of my '74. I've done a top end rebuild on my '71 Type 1 engine, but am new to Type IVs and bottom end rebuilds. So, I'm looking for some advice.

So far, from what I can tell the heads on my engine look like they are still in good, re-usable condition, but the engine is seized and the cylinders are badly rusted to the pistons. At this point, would I be better off just using the BFH method to destroy the 94mm cylinders that installed now and go with 96mm's, or is there any hope in saving these? (I'm thinking there isn't) Also, there was water in the case, so what does that typically mean for internal component replacements - cam, crank, bearings, etc?

Just in the planning phase now and trying to collect as much info as possible.

Click to view attachment

My 2.0 was a '76 with lower compression dished pistons. I probably could have used them but I wanted to go with flat top pistons, while sticking with 2.0 L. It was my first rebuild so I wasn't ready to try a 2056, y'know, minimize the variables. The next one might be a 2056 but I am very happy with my 2.0. Lots of power and torque for me as a daily driver. ( I got it up to 125 indicated with standard tires the other day just for fun. Didn't stay there long.)

Ham, Inc did my heads and I used a Raby 9550 cam kit.

Are '74 pistons flat or dished?

It's worth the effort to do it yourself. If I was intending to track it, I'd probably go with a professional unless I really knew what I was doing.

Good luck.

I'm planning on doing as much of the work myself as I possibly can, I'll only be using it for occasional (as much as weather permits) driving.

The pistons that are in there now are domed. I'm not sure what the CR ratio is on them. I'm sure someone out there knows though.

I'm going thru the same thing presently and plan on going to 96 mm P&C's and probably a better cam for carbs as my engine was already converted from FI.
I'm having the case split and cleaned by a shop familiar with type 4's cause of some water in the cylinders and fear of junk, corrosion in the cases. Will have shop do new bearings & seals and bolt the cases back together, then I can install everything else myself.
Will have main oil galleries tapped for pipe plugs instead of OEM pressed in plugs as part of case cleaning work.

I was able to pull cylinders off the pistons with a little gentle BFH work, then crank turned freely.

have fun !
Barefoot

I am also going through this right now. I decided that 2056 was the way to go, mainly due to the better quality of the components. You're going to be out for new jugs and pistons anyway, why not go with the good 96mm KB units from European Motor Works?

Even if everything else is stock, this will be a better engine. If the FI tuning is turning you off, keep in mind that bleysing can do the tuning for you at a very reasonable cost.

There is really no reason NOT to go 2056 in my opinion, given that you'll have to replace these parts anyway.

My $.02

What components do you have to change when changing to bigger pistons?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding that the 96mm will fit with no modifications.

You can get the 96mm pistons and if your cylinders are not too buggered up have them bored out to 96mm. I think the pistons come with new wrist pins and rings. Just make sure you get the right pin height. It depends on the crank you use. I don't know which but 22 or 24mm IIRC.

It should assemble with no other mod's. re-tune MPS and

Absolutely Positively

Correct, the 96mm P/C fit with no modification. If you can get the pistons unsiezed, and the pitting is not too bad, have the machine shop bore your 94s to 96, and you have a drop-in mod.

Be sure to get the 96mm pistons with stock pin height and the 24mm pin. There are many versions of these pistons, so call EMW if you are confused. Rings are sold separately, and do not come with the pistons.

Well, I am just about to the point where I'm thinking the only way these cylinders are coming off is in tiny pieces. So, new cylinders are in my future. Now my question becomes should I just replace the 94mm cylinders and keep the domed (I'm assuming high compression) pistons, or replace it all and go 96mm???

You should be able to get the pistons out without destroying the cylinders.
Then have the cyls bored out and get the EMW Keith Black pistons w/ hastings rings.

The webcam 86b will work good with that and carbs.

Your bigger worry is the crank. Hope it is salvageable. You might need to have it turned and new oversized bearings.
Then you get the case line bored BEFORE you buy new main bearings.
While they do that, have the deck checked and zeroed.

Inspect all of the exhaust studs and get those repaired/replaced if required.

Stupid question time: what do I need to look for on the crank and exhaust studs? Several of the exhaust nuts were rusted on and ended up just taking the whole stud out. Didn't break the stud, just took the whole thing out.

Also, one of my biggest motivators to just destroy and replace the cylinders is they have several broken fins already.

If you cannot move it, put it on a stand, tip it side ways and fill up each piston with a good penetrating oil.
Might take days of this treatment on both sides to get it to move.
You don't need, nor want to spin the crankshaft.
You just want to see each piston move in the cylinder.

I had one motor all seized up for a 356.
It was very important to save this motor.
I bought two or three gallons of penetrating oil and a large plastic tub.
I submersed the motor for a week, it worked.

Do that and report back.

DPR sells crankshafts
Elgin Camshafts
bearings, seals etc can be had from lots of vendors, but don't buy any bearings until to have the case and rods inspected, cleaned up and measured by a machine shop.

Rich

Here's a pic of one of the cylinders, showing the broken fins. I'm thinking this shouldn't be reused, but want to get other opinions.

Anyone have any opinions on these fins? Also, is the extra 85cc worth the price of new P&C? I know those questions may be a bit subjective, but I am just looking for opinions.

OK, Here's my opinion...........Don't use those......Get new.

If that's not enough check with a good shop that uses a torque plate when boring and honing the cylinders..........compare that price to new cylinders, you will see that new is the way to go.

I kept my original P&C's, & have them in a box. Chose to order new from European Motor Works. Lots of opinions, and the most common is to have originals bored to 96MM. Conventional wisdom says they are of a higher quality Iron. I have no experience or reason other than new felt right, and my source was highly recommended as having high quality stuff. Plus a quality clean, bore and hone was PRICEY........ Just diddnt seem worth it.

No decision if I will sell the originals yet, they are in great shape.

I took everyone's advice and decided to go with new P/C, so I just smashed mine with a hammer cylinders are off, but I can't remove the pistons because the crank is seized. I tried to split the case and found out the hard way that you can't get the halves apart with the pistons on

Any suggestions on what to do now?

You can either remove the rods from the crank, or remove the pistons from the rods.

Edit - oops, if the crank is seized, you cant rotate to get at all of the pieces required to do either of those options.

Soak until you can rotate

Remove rods from crank.

Bolt the case to a long bar on the floor using the two bottom bolts at the flywheel end.
Have a helper hold the case steady
Use a breaker bar and a long pipe on the breaker bar.
Use the flywheel bolts to rock the crankshaft back and forth.

At this point your crank is most likely toast, so get it moving enough to get the case apart.

Pistons and rods can be removed with the case still together, but if it is frozen, only some of them will be reachable....

You come from the opposite side to loosen the rod bolts.
If you remove the Pistons....remove every case bolts also and crack the case just a hair and it should start moving.
You don't want to spin the bearing in the case as this point, so only crack it a hair, just to release the tension.

I just hit another snag...when I was removing the case bolts, I forgot about the bolt that goes above the sump and ended up breaking the boss. Am I ed at this point? Will something like JB Weld hold it back on? Am I better off at this point just buying a short block?

Yes,a submerged engine needs a delicate approach,like all the Porsche engines.
Technique will get better results,without fatal damage.
20 gallons of RustBuster will work wonders.

https://www.engineeringforchange.org/news/2...rating_oil.html

http://www.instructables.com/id/Home-made-penetrating-oil/

check this out.

Yes, just buy a short block. The boss you broke also supports the cam, and weakening it is not a good thing. (We usually see this when people over-tighten the oil strainer bolt.)

The case can be welded and machined back into shape, but with all of the hassles you are having there is a good chance that getting another case/core engine is going to be easier and less expensive in the long run.

--DD

I'd give Brad Mayeur a call: http://914ltd.com/index.html......he may have a good short block or be able to make suggestions on where to find one. Jon

SELF PROMOTION ALERT

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=236879

I still have these two cases tapped for pipe plugs, with plugs and Mahle Bearings align bored to match the bearings, and crankshafts magnafluxed and ground ready to go.

And if you want I can add the removable dipstick tube also.

PM me, or e-mail me @ BellCobraIV@AOL.com let's see if I can help you out.
John

SELF PROMOTION ALERT FINISHED

No Problem.
If you had waited 45 more minutes I was going to promote you myself.

Your two cases are an excellent deal and this group needs to promote you to keep you doing this for people that will be needing them in the future.

I actually intend to buy one from you in the next year as I build my next race car engine (backup for the vintage race car).

Hi
I don't normally comment but thought I would on this occasion as I recently had my 2.0lt rebuilt.

I suggest you buy a complete used 2.0lt and send it straight to an engine builder. I think I am capable of building an engine but there are some issues which you will undoubtedly have to deal with, which by the time you have bull-shitted around with will cost you too much money, time and effort. here are a few things to consider.

1. The old cylinders are usually used beyond cost effective salvage.

2. The heads are prone to cracking and will need to be reconditioned at the least. new valve seats guides and exhaust valves is recommended. This was the most expensive part of my build.

3. If the crank has been moving laterally in the case, it will need align boring.

4. The builder can do all the useful mods like tap and plug the oil galleries, fit a baffle in the sump to stop oil sloshing sideways and starving your engine and check to see if the oil pump is worn out.

5. The cost of good quality parts is fairly expensive so why not just get the builder to do the build in the clean room and not in your garage.

I paid about 3600 for a complete rebuild to factory specs. The engine looks and functions like new. I had a new cam and lifters installed so I can run my D jet and all's working great. The engine build cost was about $700 of the total but I still think that's cheap as I didn't have to clean the case, get rid of all the waste and put up with the filth in the garage. I was also worried about assembling the motor myself due to the amount of dust which seems to blow into the garage off the street. last thing I needed was to introduce contaminants into the internals. The engine shop was like an operating theatre-very clean.

Now the one thing I have omitted is that I bought a new set of German Mahle NOS pistons and cylinders for 700 bucks off the Samba. They were 7.6:1 stock compression ratio. I was still very happy as I don't give a rats arse about having more power in my 914/4. I don't race and it's a daily driver so reliability is more important than the power. You can choose pistons and barrel to suit your budget but considering the time money and effort you are going through good quality ones are nice and may save you money in the future.

I had my engine done in Anaheim, you could buy one from someone over here in CA and send it to a shop. They will send the motor to you on completion. I'm not promoting any particular builder, I went to FAT because they had a good rap and I could drive there and discuss the build and drop the engine and pick it up. I didn't pay to have it dyno-ed and fitted it and all the ancillaries myself. I do know there are a couple of people on the forum who had motors for sale.


Have a good time spending a shit load of money.
Cheers

Yes you can pay someone to do it for you.

But isn't it more fun to do as much as you can yourself?
I know from experience that there will be mistakes.... the man that never made a mistake never did anything

David

I agree with David. What's the point if you don't build it yourself. I'm slow and spent the last 3 years building a 2.0. Finally started it on a home made test stand set-up and it started the first time. I know it's low tech stuff, but still a great feeling and worth all the hassels of maneuvering and reconfiguring a home garage.

Now the challenge of an engine swap.

The reason I usually don't comment is the endless peanut gallery comments.
Its a suggestion and I'm not advocating he doesn't do his own engine--It is just a suggestion!!!!

But while I'm at it I suppose you guys polish your own cranks, undertake an align bore if necessary, pop out the old valve seats and install new guides, seats and valve as well a weld cracked heads, machine the heads, weld damaged cases, etc etc etc. And warranty your own work. You must have well equipped garages.

No bloody wonder some of the cars on the forum have been on friggin jack stand for 10 years. I think some people would rather be driving their cars other than being under them. But then again it was only a suggestion.

Thanks for sharing that with us, I did my own align bore and vale seats last weekend in my garage...mind you there is one job that I always get help with and that polishing my crank......

All the best

I gotta say, I do enjoy working on my cars as much, if not more than, driving them. I have a 1970 VW Beetle convertible that I've owned for about 2 years now. I've probably spent around 10 hours driving it in that time and over 100 hours working on it.

On a side note, I now have a 2.0L short block with a partially split case, rusted crank with unknown stroke, unknown cam, rusted lifters and broken boss above the sump - just in case anyone is interested

Also, I just became in the market for a 2.0L short block with components that resemble none of the ones I just described.

Marvel Mystery Oil can break the pistons free with enough soaking. And please don't reuse those ps and cs, if you're doing this much work do it right.

I was finally able to move the crank and begin removing the pistons. I'm to the point now where I have been able to actually split the case and begin removing internals. I have a few questions:

1. I'm going to be running carbs on this engine and want to make sure I have the right cam to match. The cam that's installed looks to be in good shape, but I want to make sure it's correct. Where is the cam stamped to identify it?

2. Since there's a good chance my case is toast, due to the broken boss above the oil pickup, I'm going to attempt to reattach the broken piece, build it up, fill in the threads with JB Weld and re-tap it. I know this might not be the best, or most robust solution, but given the fact that cracking and/or breaking these on Type IV engines is very common, I'm thinking this might not be all that bad. Anyone ever tried this? Am I totally crazy for thinking this might work ? (Pictures below)

3. The crank has lots of surface rust, but from what I can tell (very new to Type IV, untrained eyes here) seems to be in decent shape. What should I look for to determine if it's salvageable?

Just another thought, would it be possible to do the aforementioned JB Weld job and/or drill and tap the boss deeper into the case for additional support?

I really like this thread, it makes me thankful of the condition of my case and crank.

I've heard that the broken boss can be fixed by a very talented and experienced welder, but I'm thinking you'd be better off in the long run stashing this case for the days when our 2.0s are selling for current /6 money and spending the 850 on the case and crank from John. If my original case and crank were not in good shape, I'd be doing the same.

As for the build question, to each their own. Any a-hole off the street can go buy a new Boxter, but we work on and drive vintage cars because we love them. Some take this farther down the scale than others. Personally, I know I spend more time and money building my own engine, but I know exactly what I'm getting, which is top shelf components and an OCD attention to detail. I also get a tremendous amount of satisfaction driving a car that I am the personal mechanic for. To me, that's the whole point of the hobby.

Now, If I can just get this engine built and get to driving again

European motor works has cases at reasonable prices?? I just bought a 2.0 liter long block from 914 world.I was close to just buying a case from EMW but then of course I would have to buy all the other odds and ends?? with the condition of so many old long blocks in a Porsche 914 from that era I.E young punk kids trying to see what they could make a Porsche do wow 100 mph!! LOL. not to mention all the racers cracking heads welding them cracking them again re welding them!! Really its a gamble buying a long block.My mechanic has bought up-teen numbers of long blocks and time and time again the case was bad the heads shot!! I say buy mofoco heads and a case from European motor-works then buy used odds and ends from this site then splurge on pistons cylinders and a solid cam!!just another way to go!!and you know for certain the goods are goods!!

It's your time and $$, but if everything else checks out (crank, con rods, P & C's I'd just go for a good used case. The only way to repair this case would be to weld a new boss then retap. My guess is you could buy a new/used case for less than this alone nevermind al lthe other work you have to do to the case. Is it really worth it? afterall the serial # is on the fan housing.

Though I am a neub, looking at your P&C's crank, con rods, bearings in the pic, I think you are looking at sourcing a 99% new motor, wil lneed to turn the crank, new P&C, rebuild con rods, and agree with others, go buy a good used motor and start from there, or have it rebuilt. If I had it to do all over again, I would have sent my longblock to McMark and called it done. Unfortunately, I diddnt find out about that option untill I was well into the project in parts and time.

I'm building mine from scratch, but my case crank, bearings and such were pristine, just dirty oil. Crank diddnt need to be turned or anything. I did buy a 2056 P&C kit, but the rest of the core components were reuseable. I have spent over $5K on my motor just in parts, and I took my time over 2 years to buy. Granted, I had to buy carbs and went to a new distributor, but it adds up, and knowing it was RIGHT is worth a ton.

Then you have to think about your heads. If they are as bad as the rest of you rmotor, they are likely unuseable. What else was cracked/damaged as you attempted this dissasembly? if you cracked that boss, I wonder what else is cracked/damaged?

It adds up......... Here is a list of my Motor build. Dont get me wrong, I am haivng fun and understand doing it yourself, but.....it's your time and $$.

ENGINE
Reinz Engine Gasket Set
Mahle Cam Bearings
Silverline Main Bearings (steel back)
Mahle Connecting Rod Bearings
Reinze Oil filter & sump seal
96MM 2.0 PISTON & PIN - Keith Black (EMW)
96MM Cast Iron CYL - (EMW)
96MM RING SET 1.8, 2.0 K/B - Hastings
.060 CYL SHIMS
Remanufacture Heads (Hoffman)
Modified 1.7 Rocker Arms (Hoffman Modified)
Mahle-Wizemann 911 Swivel Foot Adjusters & Nuts
26MM FLAT OIL PUMP & cover
MOCAL OILSTAT SANDWICH ADAPTER with thermostat
WEBCAM EMW G CAM 287 DUR. X .430" LIFT
WEBCAM ALUMINUM CAM GEAR & Bolts
SOLID LIFTER - Scat Performance Lubealobe
CHROMOLY CUT TO FIT PUSHRODS 3/8
Oil Strainer & gasket
Viton pushrod tube seals (16)
Alternator 75Amp remanufactured Bosch
Alternator - Fanbelt
Bosch starter relay/hot start kit
Starter - Bosch Remanufactured
Spark Plug Tin Boots - OEM
Valve Covers - Aluminum Ribbed (CB Performance)
Thermostat & Cable - (Awesome powdercoat)
Sport Engine Mounts (rear/transmission) OEM
Engine Mounts (Front) - OEM
Pertronix BILLET DIST. W/IGNITOR 2
Pertronix FLAME-THROWER COIL 3.0 OHM
Pertronix WIRE SET BLK 35.00 35.00
Dellorto 36DLRA Carbs & Mounts & Jets
Air Filter Gasket, Pair
Dellorto DRLA "Anti-Whistle" Base Gasket,
SCAT Centerpull Linkage
Oil Pressure Sending Unit, Stock, 021-919-081B
VDO 80psi Oil Pressure Sending Unit, 1/8 -27 NPTF
VDO Sending Unit "T" Adapter, 1/8 - 27, V240850
12mm Nut (8mm Thread), 12 Pieces
ACN Flanged Racing Intake/Exhaust Nuts, 8 x 10m
New Cam Plug
Raby Engine nuts & bolt kit
New Tin Screws
New Con Rod Nuts
New Rocker Arm Nuts
Curil-T Engine Sealant, 75ml Tube
Curil-K2 Engine Sealant, 125ml Bottle with Brush
Machining: Case cleaned and boresited, crank mic'd polished and rotating mass balanced.