Okay so my wrench called last night. Car was all finished & he went to fire it up. Turns over fine but no start. This is what it was doing before the fire. Also off & on it has plagued me since I got the car. I've replaced the ignition with multiple times. I added a push button for the starter to take that off the switch. Seemed like there was to much power going through it which I thought was from the starter. Obviously it is not.

One thing is almost without fail as soon as I put in a new switch & use it I get smoke from it every time. It would be fine right after the brief smoke so I didnt worry to much about it. What else is feeding the ignition switch that may be pushing to much power through it? What do you guys recommend doing here? Cutting out the switch completely? Do you think the problem lies somewhere besides the switch?

You get smoke or the smell of in the interior every time you start the car? Don't try to start the car!

You get smoke or the smell of in the interior every time you start the car? Don't try to start the car!

No for a second when I install a new switch. It comes from the new switch. Only does it once

Jamie, have you talked to the guys at Outfront? If I recall you're using an EMS unit from them. I'm thinking they've seen just about everything with these motors.

So,

You shod have four red wired coming from the battery to the ignition switch.
I believe at least two of them are switched power at the ignition switch.

If it was me, I would remove one of those wires and use a 30 amp toggle switch for both the fuel pump and ECU/ ignition setup you have.

So, like a race car, when you get in you would turn on the key ( lights etc) toggle switch for fuel, toggle switch for ignition, then push button for starter.

If it was me, and I suspected the wiring, I would run three brand new red wires through the tunnel and up to the toggle switch and push button so you know for sure they are not grounding out in the tunnel somewhere.
Rich

If you are trying to keep it stock looking with just the key, I would suggest you use a relay for the starter, ignition, ECU, and fuel pump.

These old ignition switches, the the junk they spare now selling as replacement switches just cannot stand up to the larger power requirements you are demanding with the new ECU and ignition, and fuel pump.

relays are your friend here.

Rich

I did add a relay for the starter. I have not for anything else. I'm sending Mike at SubiTech a link to this thread. I appreciate all the input

Your new ignition and new ECU is probably drawing far more current then that switch can support.
If you install relays for each circuit, you will then reduce the amps running through the switch and it will last a lot longer.

jamie, have you spoken with the p.o. as to whether he experienced this current problem? did you make any alterations or add anything to the electrical system post purchase?

Jamie, when the new switch smokes, is it after you re-connect the battery or when you turn the switch to the start position? If it's when you turn the key I'd check that yellow wire for a short. As long as you've got your ohm meter out what is the resistance from terminal end to terminal end of that yellow wire?
Rich is right, Get those two Red wires fused! Muy importante, amigo. PM me if I can help you any. Kent

Dean did go through multiple ignition switches. He did not put many miles on it overall. So I think it showed for me much more as I just used it more often. I think it got worse as time went on also. I will definitely make sure there is a fuse on the 2 red wires. I believe I had a fuse on them before by the battery.

Adding more relays to each part of the ignition makes sense.

Hello 914 world.

Subietech here. Im new to this forum and I am the one working on Jamie's car.

Jamie was referred to me by Outfront Motorsports. I have worked a lot with them in the past and they know and trust my work. That being said, Im a Subaru mechanic with a background in Performance and VW Vanagon swaps so as you can imagine, The 914 is a little new to me.

The ECU and harness install was pretty straight forward.

In my head, I'm thinking a bad ground and or bad ignition. Ive gone over all of the grounds in the engine bay and all seem good with the exception of some thick paint (most likely not an issue)

I do get a god awful sound and vibration from the fuel pump with the key turned on. Thinking it was maybe a bad ground at the fuel pump. I relocated it to a location with no paint. Still no spark and no change in noise or vibration.

Now I am in the process of replacing the ignition switch. If I get a spark, I am going to ad a 30amp toggle to both the fuel pump and ECU/ ignition as r_towle suggested and hope that it last though more then a "few" on/off cycles.

The four Red wires going to the battery were melted in the fire. as were most of the wires that come together just behind the Fire wall. I cut out the bad sections and patched it all up. if the new ignition switch doesn't work, I going to pull the four red wires and go from there.

If anyone has any other ideas, or has had this issue come up in the past. Please don't hesitate to chime in. At this point I'm seeing wires in my sleep.

(Jamie, Im heading to LA for Xmas.. I am gonna talk it over with the guys at Outfront and see what we can come up with.. I ordered the Ignition switch so once I get back up to Bend ill pop it in and cross my fingers…)


Happy Holidays everyone~

Mike
SubieTech Headquarters
542-213-8549
subietech.net

Run one very large red lead from the battery up to underneath the dashboard.
Mount that to a multi terminal isolation block.
Run short red wires from there.

Check the ground strap on the rear of the transmission to the body, it's very important.
Check the main ground at the fuse panel, drivers side inner fender, way up in there, hard to see, on your back....

It's a simple circuit, ignition needs the right level of power to the ECU or ignition module.
Give it that power outside of the entire keyed switch setup and see if it starts first, just use a fused jumper lead.
If that checks out and you know the ECU or ignition module is ok, follow that lead backwards.

Provide the ECU with a very good ground.
Sometimes they use switched ground instead of switched power for an ECU, so read the manual before you wire it up.

Build a positive and negative lead right to the battery, test each system.

Rich

The tranny is a suby. I am not sure now that you mentioned it if the ground was done differently or what .

Starter and engine need to be grounded to the body, battery needs to be grounded to the body.
All body circuits, lights etc are grounded to the body ( everything except the starter)
So, take a look.

Wait a minute, am I understanding this correctly? Your car has had an electrical fire that caused a lot of damage, and you've had repeated "smoke" in the cabin but you don't know why? Now you're trying to find out why you aren't getting spark but you still don't know why you've been getting smoke? After a fire? I'm sure there's something I missed there. No?

I have gotten a puff of smoke from the new switch on install. I have not had smoke in the cab regularly or a lot of it. Yes it did happen with multiple new switches. They also all worked after. I thought it might be common with the new cheap switches. Since after that initial puff it all worked. This was also spread out over a year.

Is it possible this ignition issue caused my fire in the trunk? Considering none of my electrical fire came into the cab wiring. It was isolated in the rear trunk & down to the battery. The ignition wasn't turned on in any way when the fire started. I don't know what caused it.

Yes I am trying to figure out what is going on with my ignition. I obviously don't want to have anything to do with another fire period. Thats why I asked for some input. Also another reason I sent it to a shop.

So if your point was to make me feel shitty for the fire I had in my car. I've been feeling that way since it happened . I'm trying to move on & get my car fixed. I appreciate any input that helps me get there

Jamie,
You need to have another electrician who has experience working on autos check out your wiring issues. From what I have read here, the ones you now have are missing some issues that need to be checked in a better way than hooking up the power and seeing if it works or smokes. Please do this before there is another fire!
The first thing that needs to be done is to remove the wires for the switched loads,( the loads are what the switch sends power to) and check each one with a multi-meter to see how much current it will draw. The battery needs to be disconnected to do this. You will be reading each load wire to ground to see what the ohm reading is. The lower the ohmic value, the higher the current will be. If the loads exceed the rated capacity of the switch, then you will need to install relays or a heavier duty ignition switch ( which is probably not available). If your ignition switch wiring is stock, there is one large red wire that goes to the switch and several that are loads.
Tom

Sorry, don't want to make you feel bad, but a puff of smoke isn't normal. You know "where there's smoke...", so I really think you should make finding out what's causing that a priority. Maybe it's nothing, but you need to know.

I'd like to clear things up a bit…..I can say without a doubt that there has NOT been any smoke or fire since I've been working on it.

I removed the stereo and accessories ports to be sure that they were not drawing a load. Now its just the cars main harness and ECU..

The Battery is grounded correctly, The ECU is grounded directly to the battery and the fuel pump is grounded. I've even replace the transmission to chassis ground

The fire was centered around the battery and I feel like it was caused by a cable rubbing on the oversized battery tie down and shorting out. That sent the heat up to the ECU via a horribly routed wire harness and down to the firewall where the main harness exits the cabin. It was all one big melted mess of wires. Everything has been cleaned up and patched properly.

My next step is to replace the ignition, check the main Yellow wire for anything that looks suspect and ad a 30amp fuse to both the fuel pump and the starter and of course, continue to look for a bad ground while Im in the dash.

Mike

I'm with Tom on this one. There seems to be a underline issue here which needs to be gone through by a experienced electrician.

Tom makes the point again. You need ohmic values to aid in making a decision. Question for Subietech: How many grounds were added to his set up and where are they located. I'm sure that you know what I'm going to say in that you work on the Vanagon conversions. I ran lots of extra grounds for 2 reasons. #1- I'm not the smartest guy on the block and I knew grounds were important on modern vehicles so I'm sure I did an overkill on grounds. #2- I chained my grounds per TOM's suggestion. Although I consider Kugel one of the alleged "rust free" 914's I "know" what the metal looks like at the seams and spot welds so I couldn't trust one body panel to properly transfer the ground to another body panel. Sounds like he had 2 problems. The short at the batt cable makes sense. And the ign switch appears to be another problem but a problem indeed! Hope you can stick around on this board. We can use a REAL Suby mechanic on this Porsche forum.

I feel good about Mike at Subietech. He is no stranger to electrical & wiring. I posted a thread to help get ideas for where to look as he is new to 914's. We've got a few days with xmas where it will be sitting until he is back to work on it. Just making sure we attack it the right way.

I'm not looking to cut any corners here. I want it done right which is why I took I to Mike to begin with. I fully admit I am no great shakes as a wrench. I can pull things apart & put them back together. Troubleshooting is not my strong suit. Especially when it comes to electrical. Which is why I am asking to begin with. Not only to make sure we get to the problem. But also to get a better understanding of it. Doesn't do me much good to have something fixed & have no clue how it was done. Anytime I have work done I come away with a better understanding of my car. I've been playing with 914's for years. While there are still things over my head. I get a little better every year thanks to the forums. Being able to throw problems at other members here is what makes this place great.

I'm no stranger to grounding! I sale in house custom made grounding kits for subaru's. I like direct from the battery to the fender, alt, intake manifold , strut tower and of course the starter. No daisy chain.

Originally, when Jamie brought me the car, the main ground from the battery was to the transmission near the axle ! Normally on a Subaru, the main ground from the battery is to the tab on the upper main bolt for the trans-motor-starter so I moved it there. I then added a ground from under the trunk to the transmission case (as Subaru does trans to firewall). The direct ground from the battery to the chassis is good. I didn't feel the need to go nuts adding other grounds just yet but I may very well add a few before I'm done.

I haven't had a chance to put a ohms meter on it yet (I'm currently in route to LA) but will once I get back to Bend.

Factory ground post is on the inner rear fender, right next to the ground post of the battery.
Bend way over and look up high, its hard to see and way under the rain cover.

From there, the factory ground strap is bolted to the bottom of the rear trunk directly above the rear of the transmission, so it bolts to one of the rear tranny cover bolts.

That gets you your body ground and engine ground.

Everything on the car, with the exception of the starter, is grounded off the chassis.
There are dedicated grounds for most circuits.

Rich

Where we are at today. Mike found my headlight relay was fried. The white wire with blue stripe I think feeds that. With my aftermarket gauges there is a fair amount of wiring up there under the dash. Since there is a fair amount of new wiring & the aftermarket Engman panel. There is some wiring that doesn't exactly match the 914 diagram. We are 95% sure it is good to go. Before trying to start the car. I'm taking it to another shop to be sure. Mike's put a lot of time into it & wants to be sure too.

So first of next week it is off to get the wiring checked at a new shop. Hopefully it will be a real quick turn around there. If they can actually get on it right away. I may have it back next weekend. LOL! I'm not holding my breath though. I'm content to wait until it is perfect

I'm sorry Jamie. You are not allowed to have spark. That car is too nice for us to allow you to have spark.

Good one Rob. I completely agree. One good spark was more than enough for me for a lifetime.

On my conversion I took the ign wire ( power lead to the coil) and wired it up to
new power relays to feed the ECU, fuel pump power which takes the load off the ign
switch. I also added a power relay to the starter circuit. These changes will remove
the large current drain which the ECU,fuel pump require from the ign switch.

Send it to McMark's and I will come up and fix it.

Or he can fix it and I'll drink beer...

Just don't have ANYTHING flammable nearby!

Same here. I believe "that power lead" is #9 blk. In fact, you, Mike B., Tom, Spoke (who is cheaper than I ) and a few others, "held my hand" as I wired mine up. Can't thank you guy's enough for your experienced views and tips. Also, you can't have too many relays or grounds on the 914's meager wiring system. Did Dean install the "power relay" from the original Suby wiring system?

Why are you laughing? I'm serious...

IMHO, there's only one way to solve this problem.

Document the whole harness and reevaluate all the design decisions. you may find other things that need addressing.