What kind of figures are places pushing on these anyway ?

My record is 284 HP NA from my 2.9 twin plug, on pump gas. Boosted, just over 475HP @ 20 PSI on pump gas.

So jake can 200 hp in a type 4 be at all reliable as a daily driver ?

If you can afford to build it properly. Today my engines start at 200HP, and all are developed for the street.

Its all in the combo, and how you make that 200HP, is more important than the dyno graph in regard to drivability, reliability, and longevity.

200 HP is no longer a benchmark for power from these engines; development has changed everything.

What do you consider "streetable"? Answer that question, and you'll be a fair way to answering your question.

--DD

200hp type 4 is in the price territory of 'you may as well do a Porsche 6'.
No armchair engineer here... I've built a few of the big type4's, I own one and my current project is a /6 conversion.

So Jake who is producing these heads? Are you doing them in house?

How much $$ would be the minimum amount required to break into the 200hp Type IV club?

$2K? $5K?....$8K+?

lol. I bet your talking $20k + for a turnkey engine from jake.

Double your last figure. Or more.
$8k maybe if you are at my skills level, ie can replace seats and port heads, build the engine, header, etc...
I also bought my nickies at group buy prices...

For an idea price HAM the top level heads, nickies, stroker crank, rods, header, carbs WEB cam and internals.

Wow,That's a stratospheric territory,unknown to us mere mortals with rusted 914s.
To wish upon a cloud.If 4=475 then 6=710,a number of some portent.
A ton of work to make reliable and durable.

Len did the heads on that 284HP beast. The engine resides in Australia.

Our prices start at 20K these days, an engine like that 284HP beast (if you could convince me to build it) would be 35-40k.

I turned down all the builds that were "crazy" last year, and I'll only do one this year.

Our prices start at 20K these days, an engine like that 284HP beast (if you could convince me to build it) would be 35-40k.




Come on now , is this what they mean when they say

Caution ,price gougers learking here.

I somehow doubt that the engine Porsche should have built would be that expensive...

But. What do I know ....

Uh oh, now you've done it. Ironically Jake actually loves criticism because it gives him the opportunity to answer it with infomercials. But don't worry, it will pass and you will learn.

This year I moved to only using USA made performance products within a line of my engines. This means a billet crankshaft, and Nickies cylinders, among other things. An engine like this has 13K worth of parts alone and comes 100% complete.

As component quality drops more and more, we have to manufacture more parts, do more development on those parts, and we can't buy just a few at a time.

I did one single time study on an engine assembly in 2014, and by the time we started, till the time the engine was on the truck, we had 103 hours of accumulative time in that single engine.

Call it price gouging if you want to, but you won't find anyone to even tune your engine up for less than 85 bucks an hour. To create a complete engine, and spend this amount of time doing so, we are making 20 bucks an hour less than that, generally speaking.

I have no shortage of people who appreciate this, if I stopped taking orders right now we'd be working into 2016 just from those who are already committed.

Go price the parts...12k will just get you the entrance fee...just about every part is 1 to 3K...crank, heads, induction, cam, exhaust, ceramic lifters, Nickies, etc....I know it scared me when I added it all up. But it was done and done...6 or 7K for a used 6 cyl doesn't look too bad....but I still like the big 4....

That build time estimate is about dead nuts on.

It's why I don't work as much on these projects anymore. As when I give my price quote the whining starts "Can't you do it cheaper"
Peeps are shameless, I even ask what would you say if your boss said "I want you to work for half price for the next month"? "Well no I wouldn't ...but can't you give me a deal...."
Luckily I'm in the position to say "No, I can't, sorry".




That said the hell with even the six, for 35-40K there are whole finished cars I'd rather own

The old saying has always been true! Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

I daily drove my 2.0, relatively stock internals ,with a low 7 psi turbo engine for 50,000 miles no problem. It ran a water/alcohol injection and boost enrichment; made 140 rwhp.
The engine was sold running strong, and went into a mid engine sand rail.
Marty

Capitalism i guess.
Someone will pay it. I wont.

I might not be a buyer for one of Jake's engines but I'm glad he's doing cool stuff.

^Exactly..... I even enjoyed reading all about them doing the new cylinders for the newest water cooled Porsche motors, great reading and something I'll probably never need in my life time but worth reading I thought.

http://pauter.com/parts/super-pro/


This also looks expensive

But power full

I noticed the heads exhaust thru front and back ala v w

Not underneath but

I would imagine someone here would have thoughts to express

$20k in parts...
So Raby is the budget alternative. And people said such nasty things about him, calling him a capitalist and such.

I wish that I had the money to spend getting him to build me a motor, but I don't think I would spend the dollars on a /4, I might try to get him to build me a 2.8 or 3 liter RSR style /6.

I am currently putting a 1911 with a mild cam in my 1971. I expect it to be quite fun to drive and I will have less invested in the whole car than the labor alone would cost on one of these engines. I don't know if the economics work out, unless you want to race and are forced to keep certain displacement or certain elements stock. I am not saying that anybody is over charging, I am just saying that I don't see how the expense justifies the result, unless you have a very specific set of needs and a big pile of cash.

What a wonderful world where I can buy a used motor for $600 and somebody else can spend that on their valves and we can hang out together and enjoy our cars!

These dollar figures sure make make the $275 subaru u-pull engine ($350 turn key/harness and ecu) seem like a great option for us poor folk Of course a little more work for the plumbing and engine bar....but still.

Jon H.

As a builder of these engines for almost 30 years my take is to save your money and build a simpler 2056 to 2270 then spend the rest of the coin on the handling of the car and drive. Become a better driver, stop worrying about HP numbers and get some seat time.

Really if you have 200 over 130hp sure you will have a better 0-60 time, but at speed the HP does less than you can imagine. These are momentum cars, the race car speeds come from the fact you don't slow for the corners. Again if you want to go faster get seat time.


Building the motor is only part of the six equation, (oil/cooler system suspension/brake upgrades, etc) you are now talking a 30-50K build. Again if you lower you expectation slightly and get some seat time you can have a well sorted /6.
A stock 3.2 six is the power of these type 4's being talked about.
My engine is an almost 3.0 RS or RSR spec, I got in just at the right time, master scrounger, skills to DIY, but I must have over 10+K just in parts. It's 5 years later you would now have trouble getting these parts together for twice the price. I say that the 2.8-3.0 RSR /6 build you mention starts at $30k for just the engine.

If you pockets are deep and you were bent on going this route I'd first pick Henry at Supertech, or Competition Engineering or Rennsport etc. to build my /6 engine.
This is something that you best not jump into, do a lot of research before you spend a dime.

$20k for 200+ HP?! Why? For that coin I'd do a Suby 2.5 turbo conversion and have plenty of cash left over for suspension, wheels/tires, body work, and speeding tickets.

I'm on the upper 200s in both HP and torque with my Legacy GT from simple, inexpensive mods, base engine is about 250 for both HP and torque. At 122,000 miles and going strong.

Throwing $20k at Type IV would also make me think of throwing another $10k towards a Lotus Elise - no brainer there in my opinion.

But I didn't buy my 914 for the "throw you in the back of the seat" performance. It's a ball to drive with a 2056. For each there own, at least we have choices...

"What a wonderful world where I can buy a used motor for $600 and somebody else can spend that on their valves and we can hang out together and enjoy our cars!"

Amen, bro.

"...we can hang out together and enjoy our cars!"

Yes, but don't forget the brewskis!

And completely unsuitable for anything but 1320 feet. Run it much more than 1/4 mile, and it'll overheat and eventually seize up or make other Very Expensive Noises ™. It is designed very specifically for one job, going 1320 feet as fast as possible, and is so well optimized for that one task that it is crap at just about anything else.

Contrast that to a 3.0 Six, most of which will run at 6500+ RPM for hours on end, go back to the street, and then run for a quarter-million miles more....

--DD

As an owner of a Raby motor I can tell you it is not just about max HP. The motor combination has been developed to be very drivable and smooth, it runs cool, idles in traffic and loves to stretch its legs on the open road. I stayed with a 4 because I felt it was the best package for the car. Still light weight and low CG, no big oil tanks or radiators to cut into your car, I still use all stock 914 rubber and hardware, the 901 handles the power fine and it is a very clean install. You pay to have things done right. I knew I could not build the motor well so I payed for Jake's thousands of hours of experience, not just the 100 or so he put into my motor. I could have bought the parts and done it myself and made one stupid mistake which would ruin the motor. It would not be that cheap after that. I'm very happy with my purchase and have had 13000 trouble free miles over almost 9 years. My .02.

So it's a 1/8 mile only type engine

You seem quite sure of it http://pauter.com/parts/super-pro/


But I have seen one install ed in a karman ghia
With cooling fan an shroud and claiming to be a
Daily driver

Ill try to post the link

Here it is



http://pauter.com/gallery/street/ghia/

I was saying quarter-mile, not eighth.

And the motor in the Ghia is not the same one shown in the earlier link. At a minimum, the cylinders are drastically different--only 96mm, cast iron, and they actually have cooling fins.

That one is probably better at being a street motor than the other one, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was still somewhat compromised...

--DD

Dave is correct, it is a full drag engine like shown in the first link. The second link shows someone has made it into a "street" engine.
So?? There was a guy who made a real 917 into a street car, or how about a jet engine or radial AC engine??

The Paulter is a drag engine, says so in the description, the parts for the long block alone starts at over $21K

Its all in the combo. Anybody can make power, not everyone can make it at a sane RPM, make it predictable, make it run cool, and keep it that way for years. Thanks for shining in with your direct experience. Damn, its been 9 years already?!!! WOW!

A Pauter engine isn't designed to be thermally efficient. The head castings are barely finned and so are the cylinders. The engines heat soak badly.