Compression ratio chart, or:
What happens to your total CR
(yield) when applying forced induction to your static CR
Sorry for the old scan quality Click to view attachment

Is MSDS going to revisit this product for a 914 ?....

At what point do you have to twin plug the turbo engine?
In a N/A six once you hit over 9.5:1 CR you are getting near the limit of single plug.
Twin plugging and fire rings would add another dimension to the turbo build.

This gets back to if boost levels are adjustable someone will push the limit, overboost and likely blame the builder.

thank you. that explains a lot.

I just cannot see that.
Do you have any better pictures of that ring in detail?

Matching groove cut into head and cylinder, the fire ring is solid.

I believe same topic. Not a fan of bernie bergmann but i will give credit to the idea. Used stock heaters
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...202113&st=0

Stuff like that is fine for a few one-off installs...it starts to get impractical and expensive.

I guess one could have a "basic" kit for with a max psi limit...

Then have other options for more boost...of course the money to HP ratio can get skewered really fast and it will get hard to justify considering all our other options if all we want is a certain about of HP for the vehicle.

Moggy, over in the paddock section, has been hard racing (Rally) a 914 4 with a supercharger for years. He had special groves machined into his heads /barrels that seal without any issues. Of course Moggy has done a bunch of other modifications to make it all work, but it does.

Same thing could be done with a turbo, which would make an effective setup and then one could run higher boost levels.

Britain Smith has build a big time Type IV turbo motor for his 912. It works and puts out serious power.

I've thought long and hard about building an effective turbo motor. 300Hp out of a 2.0 would be excellent and would compete with the fast group with SCCA XP, in a 914, but it's likely a nose bleed from the start as no one has done a Type IV before.

FYI SCCA screws anyone using CC to compete.

If I was still going to do it I'd visit CB performance. They've build a huge number of hot turbo Type 1 motors for sand rails, etc. They have the experience and parts, likely a bunch of them adaptable to a type IV. They say 300hp is the low end of output they work with, but guessing this would be on larger motors.

It'd make sense to take Mark down there on the same trip, figure out what could be done, secure the parts and have him do it.

BTW their Type I turbo motors are reasonable.

Hi Mike. Nice to see you back on the forum.

Jim,
My facility has the knowledge, skill and all machinery to put kits together.
I would be in the market to offer any tuning shop/aftermarket parts co., a contract job quotation on a small run (min.25) of their turbo kit specific tubing .Tubing; intake into/ out of compressor, intake charge pipes (including intercooler piping), hot side into turbine (including headers), turbine exit +muffler, waste gate tie-in.
This is about 85% of a kit...the rest is packaging off the shelf items, and a tuning package. Those items would be packaged + provided by the turbo kit seller.
Simple as that
Marty

Bumping this back up to move the Subaru swap threads down the page.....

I kid, I kid

A few q's...

Think a Holset HE351Ve is too much for a 1.7? (I just happen to have a HE351Ve sitting in my garage)

If the motor is out already, worth the few hundred bucks for Raceware head studs and case kit for a type IV?

I think thats too big of a turbo. I know its a variable vein turbo, but its just to big, unless you want it to spool late to keep the heat down and not use an intercooler..


The reason I say this is McMark is using a KO3 on his engine and getting a medium spool, say like an 80's turbo.

The guys that are using the Holsets on their similar Audi/VW engines that previously had KO3's are having a spool that is similar to an 80's turbo.

SO if we compound that I think you'll find that the holset will perform like a Big Ass turbo, sure it'll make a PSI or two at 3k but it wont really spool up till youve stood on it for a couple seconds or its way up in the RPM range, where the T4 doesnt do well.

I'd grab some other factory turbo off a 4 cyl. So many of them in the junkyards these days..

You could probably fund it for the couple hundred bucks you could get for the Holset..

Yup. Keep it small. The 1.7 doesn't breathe a bunch anyway. K03 is instant boost. Just drives like a big motor, not like a 930. I turned up the boost a bit and I'm having input dyno tuned right now. It's so torquey! I really think this will be a great combo/recipie.

thanks....I'm missing the hotside on the Holset anyway!

Time to make ad and see if someone wants to do some trading.

There is no lag at all. Off idle you're in the boost so like McMark said, it feels like a 2270 or bigger NA motor.

Never driven one of those...I have driven a what I think was a nicely done 2056 and I really, really liked it, gave me a new appreciation for the Type IV in the 914.

my car originally has a K26 from a 944 turbo spooled between 2500 to 3000k lots of top end boost and power. I changed it out for NOS K26 from an audi 5000S spools in 1st gear @ 1800 rpm with 12lbs of boost, fall more in the RPM range of my 2.0 with 94mm P & C's with 1.7 heads

"Bumping this back up to move the Subaru swap threads down the page....."

Ha bump us, beat us, do what you want to us, we are the revolution!!!

I don't care plenty of room for all of us!!!

I thought you where keeping this one stock

Oh well I knew better just figured you where only fooling your self with that thought.

Mueller

2270s are a great NA Type-4 engine, the 2056 and 1911 are a sweet set of engines also if done correctly. I loved my last 1911, spun up like crazy made a great auto-x engine and not bad on the street either. But if this 12psi 1.7L feels like a 2270, you will be pretty darn happy until you feel the need for more.

Then welcome to the dark side of the force

Hey, Mike--you might want to get the car actually running first....

--DD (calling the kettle black)

Check out the build threads in my sig.

Get a snickers bar. This could take awhile...

When I did my turbo project, I had 2 goals. Use as many parts as I already had to keep costs down, and keep the engine running cool.

Phase 1 was to turbo my stock 2.0 motor. It already had SDS efi, ITB's, and a kerry hunter exhaust, so all that was to be re-used on the turbo motor. I got my hands on a used 13b turbo off a mitzu 3000gt. On paper, a perfect match for my goals of low boost and fast response. I mounted it on the back of the collector for the KH exhaust. This would keep the heat of the turbo system out of the engine compartment, and keep the intake air to the engine, as well as the cooling air to the engine cooler. There seemed to be 2 schools of thought on exhaust systems. Corky Bell supported equal length headers if you had the room, for better exhaust pulsing to the turbo, and there fore quicker response, and a log style manifold if space was tight. The 13b turbo was a turd. I rebuilt it and it was still a turd. Wouldn't boost beyond 5-6 psi, and all of that at 5k rpm.

A 13g turbo off a subi 2.0 wrx was sourced. Much better. On paper, the bigger turbo should have been a worse choice, in the real world it worked. Response was linear, smooth, and fast. I had a giant intercooler from a wrx mounted between the ITB's, and with that, intake air temps at 10psi were never more than 20 degrees or so above ambient air temp. Monitoring cht, egt, and oil temps/pressures, all were reasonable for driving around, after a good pounding all would be more elevated more than I would have liked, but all returned to "reasonable" very quickly.

So that set up was SDS, with ITB's, KH header, 13g turbo off of a wrx, BIG intercooler with a custom plenum and puller fan, oil cooler with thermostat and fan system, and lots of gauges to keep track of it all. The tune was done by me on the backroads of WI, running around 14.7 afr at steady throttle, dropping to 12.5 under boost, and going a bit lower than that at WOT. The set up was never dyno'd. All this at 8-10 psi or so, as I recall.

I had parts that worked and proof of theory. Now time to ramp things up. After a bunch of consulting with Jake and Len, a new motor was devised. Again, using as many parts as I could from what I already had, I built a 1835, which was the GA case, 2.0 crank, rods, and 1.7 cyls with custom JE pistons to get the right pin height. I already had the case, crank, rods, cyls. Len took some core 1.7Q heads and did his magic. Pistons were ordered, along with a cam Jake thought would work well for the application. The thought process was the smaller bore would seal better, the better cam and head flow would make up for the smaller displacement, and I'd have a motor that would hold 20 psi if I wanted to throw that much at it. My goals were 12-15 psi at 2000-2500 rpm and 7k rpm redline. For autox, I'd rather not have to make the 2-3 shift any more than needed, so more rpms = more speed in 2nd before the next corner.

I built the motor, broke it in, and put some boost to it. Below 3500 it was quick, above 3500 it was scenery blurring fast. Not exactly what I was looking for in an autox motor, but still very much fun. I tried the 13b turbo, still a turd. Back to the 13g. More experiments with tuning, changing timing, AFR's, plug temps, more boost, less boost, still it was a 3500 rpm motor. Tried a 3rd turbo, I don't recall the designation, I think it was a VF 11 or something. Size wise, it was between the 13b and 13g. It performed like the 13g in terms of when it would spool up, but made less boost at top end. On the positive side, with the cam and heads that had an 85% intake to exhaust ratio, the motor ran very cool. Oil temps, cht, egt all were VERY reasonable and super stable. I was convinced I had a cool running motor that would last, I just needed to find the right turbo. So overall, a little disappointed that while I was getting closer, I wasn't there just yet. No dyno on this motor either. This motor was not babied, running 12 psi and 7k rpm every time I turned the key.

Then the money shift. A friend was driving the car while I was tuning, he was WOT 3rd gear, so 13-15 psi or so and somewhere between 7-7500 rpm. I set the SDS to shut down the party at 7500. Heads should have been good to 8k. He shifted from 3rd to 2nd and that was it. The motor is now in parts. Len has the heads back to me. He thought they had been over heated due to the condition of the metal and seats. Based on my observations of egt, cht, and oil temps I don't see how this happened, but his real world observations vs my glance at the gauges, likely it did.

What have I learned. On a turbo 914, heat is the problem, and whatever you can do to control that is job #1. Had the car not been money shifted, 7k rpm and 12psi+ of boost might have been asking a bit much in the long term. The deeper you go in the rabbit hole, the crazier things get. If you are going to turbo a 914 you will need some aftermarket ECU, larger injectors, and exhaust. "Conventional" wisdom on how to size a turbo to this motor is nearly useless. All the books and internet info on turbo sizing told me the 13b was perfect, the 13g to big. 2 valve heads, air cooled, crappy exhaust port flow, lame stock cam, who really knows what the VE is on one of these old things, trial and error was a better tool to pick a turbo with. ITB's made this harder than it needs to be, but thats what I had on hand and was set up to run. E85 would be an additional layer of safety for tuning and keeping temps down.

If I were doing it again: MS was in its infancy when I started this, I went with SDS as a proven, simple solution. I'd consider MS now that it is more mature. I'd go with a single throttle body, on an OEM plenum and runners to keep that part of the deal simple and cheap. While on paper, using the late "log" style factory exhaust, as McMark did is not optimum, I'd give it a shot. I have those parts on hand, and strongly considered it, but went with the KH exhaust. I'd build in as much intercooler as I could, big injectors, and run e85, which may be easier for me in the midwest than for others out there. For the motor, i could go either way, 1.7 or 2.0. Would probably depend on the turbo. No replacement for displacement. I don't think i'd try to push the boost beyond 10-12 psi with out more of a specialty build on the motor. With a stock motor I'd stick with a stock redline. We are doing this to have some fun here, and blown up, broken down, in the garage is not the kind of fun we're looking for, right?

Thanks Dave,

I've gone back and read your thread and have watched all your 914 related youtube videos...thanks for the reply and input.


The car currently has a megasquirt (installed on a 2.0 bus motor with 0 compression on cylinder #3 according to the PO)

It also has a unknown header similar to the European Race header.

I have the $ saved up for a 1.7* that McMark has, while a bigger motor would be nice, the price for a decent 2.0 has given me sticker shock!


*supposed to be low miles on a professional rebuild by another shop.

E85 option is out, closest station is 15 miles away in a direction I hardly ever travel so that would be a pain (1 hour round trip due to the traffic some hours of the day)

I've toyed with the idea of turbo since before I bought my 914 two years ago.
Living in "Saab town" Trollhättan in Sweden turbo cars has been the daily thing all my life. Staying with a thickwall cylinder engine sound good. I would just like McMark go with a small K03 turbo or similar sized Garret T25 unit from a 150hp Saab 9-3 (98-02 cars) The K03 kinda runs out of puff over 180 hp but that would be more than enough in our light cars. (I built a 850 kg Mk1 Scirocco with a k03 20v engine and it was fast enough.) Running E85 would be a no brainer too but it would need the tunnel fuel lines upgrades to stainless ones.

I'd love to see pics of your coil on plug setup....diving into your thread now to search.

You could do what the modern FI turbo guys do and run a mix... E30 does a lot... Grab 5 5 gallon containers and fill it up every couple months..


But then there is also W/M injection... I loved it on the 944 turbo. And it kept the cylinders nice and clean.

Next thing you know, you'll have someone flaring the fenders for ya!!!...lol

Click to view attachment
Oi,give us a hand.Grab that shovel.

Click to view attachment
TurboJet

Jettrain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4AyytkpiB0


A state of the art ambition,so many quid.

Yup....I'm digging up this thread from a year ago.

McMark...are you still thinking of possibly putting together a turbo kit? I for one would certainly be interested in a reliable kit, and it seems reliability had been achieved over a year ago. Any updates?

I wasn't into this idea until I started looking into rebuilding my 2.2 six. Prices are absolutely insane! Everyday the turbo option looks more attractive. I even have a 1.7 to base a build off of.

My main roadblock is that I have no knowledge of FI, turbos, programing, crank fire and all of the other mumbo jumbo that would make this thing tick. There's quite a learning curve involved.

I'm also concerned about the heads. How much do I need to do to them to keep them alive and what's that going to cost me?

When Mark did this, I silently said to myself, 'why, with all the parts you have on the shelf, would you go with a 1.7?' Then, I drove it.

Oh my...

McMark...how many people would need to be signed up for a 'group buy' for you to put together a kit? I'm sure there would be interest out there, especially with the sheer number of 1.7 owners. Mine is a '73 and very much like the option of a bolt on kit, rather than other swaps that require a more permanent modification.

Mine is built on a 100% stock 1.7. The idea was to make the engine 'disposable'. Also, the idea was to keep the boost low and be happy with a little extra.

I'm happy to make the setup. It's more a factor of the cost. Fuel injection with coil-on-plug ignition is about $3000 complete, turbo and plumbing is around $2000. Each unit has to be hand made and setup. I don't have any jigs or other fancy tools to help speed up the process. If I thought I might sell 10+ of these it might be worth it, but for the number of people I think might actually buy-in it's easier to just hand make them.

What is nice with the turbo setup is that I see no reason someone couldn't do it in stages to help with the cost...do and sort all the fuel injection/ignition 1st, drive car around for 6 months or a year then buy the turbo hard parts and install.

...

Ok,
Please post the shopping list for the EFI first.
Currently the junkyards are closed due to snow, but will open up soon enough.

Rich

You're not wrong, I just am not set up to handle any (albeit small) volume of retail sales. Selling a $10 part takes me away from billing shop time. Now if I can grow the business a little... I could then sell packages and individual pieces.