Ok guys.... my oil pump is starting to die (stocker). After a long freeway drive oil thins out and oil PSI dips below 10 psi at idle (idiot light). Ill soon have a gauge on it, but in the mean time, i would like to replace with a new Melling pump. my engine is in the car (duh)....

so... is it possible to just drop the front of teh engine..... and pull the fan housing... and switch out pumps? do i need to machine the drive tang off the pump? will it clear the cam/cam bolts???

To use a T1 pump you have to either modify the cam gear or replace the oil pump studs. Im not sure either one will be easy with the engine in the car.

Seriously, you can drop the whole package in an hour if you just go for it.

Put the motor on the ground and work safe.

KT

QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 12 2005, 10:03 PM)

Seriously, you can drop the whole package in an hour if you just go for it. Put the motor on the ground and work safe. KT

motor drops are no sweat.....

basically what i am asking.... CAN i PHYSICAALY change the oil pump without loosening the case bolts (splitting case....)

also.. can i replace ALL the oil pressure pistons while its on the garage floor....????

Guru's please help

yes you should be able to change pump with out spliting case. The mellings suffer from warped covers when torques down. Ig you do use a meelling, replace the cover with that of a stock bug, it has raised edges, which stiffen the plate from bending when torqued down. The middle will bow something like .004 or.006 inches when torqued unoess you go to the raised edge stock VW pump cover.

A melling should need the tang ground, or pump gear pressed more on the shaft if possible (hence raising he tang)


What eeer pump you use, be sure to "blue print" the surfaces flat, with zero cleance (.004 inch paper gasket will provide the claerance.

be sure to mease gear clearances also, reject any pump with big gaps.

minimizing the clearances in teh pump, and lappping the cover and bady will increase oil presure.

sounds like there is gonna be some drama even with a new pump


and putting the new hipress pistons in should help too right?
can i access the gally plugs without removing tin?

Are you sure the oil pump is at fault?

Is the car overheating? Are you using 5W-10 oil? Is the idle speed too low? New motor or high mileage?

I had the same problem, with my first car. After a drive on the freeway I can see the oil pressure drop at idle and the oil temp went way up. And changing the oil pump didn't help any in my case. Try looking at the oil cooler to see if it's cooling the oil properly.

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 12 2005, 10:38 PM)

sounds like there is gonna be some drama even with a new pump and putting the new hipress pistons in should help too right? can i access the gally plugs without removing tin?

Changing the oil relief pistons helps alittle bit.
I have seen guys have the Melling pump back milled for a O ring as it tends to leak there. Maybe if you slather enough red RTV it won't leak (steel and aluminum expand at different rates, duh)
Or buy one of Jakes modified type 1 oil pumps.
Gallery plugs can be accessed but tapping them should be done unless you can clean out all the filings from drilling and tapping. Thats another thing to think about, old engine with stock plugs, hmmn,new high pressure/volume oil pump could blow out the plugs. Now thats not good.
Maybe pull that oil cooler and have it cleaned while you are at it. Have you ever cleaned around the cylinders?? all the leaves and oily grime that builds up really heats up the engine.


Geoff

Motor has about 25,000 hard miles on it. i run Castrol 20w-50. At time of rebuild, the stock pump was reused (inspec..yada yada). The 50 series tires dont help the rpm situation on the freeway......

oil cooler seems to be working fine. the temp stays way below the redline on the dash temp gauge. ..just the oil thins out... after a long drive.... i have to keep it above 1100 rpm to keep 10 psi of pressure (idiot light).

definitely should try cleaning out your oil cooler. If you need a 1300psi pressure washer, I got one. Maybe even go to an external cooler?

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Feb 13 2005, 08:32 AM)

Or buy one of Jakes modified type 1 oil pumps. Geoff

Geoff,

sorry for being lazy but do you know how much $ Jakes modified pump is...

and how much does a melling go for these days?

I'm needing a HD pump and would like buy the cheapest option.

TIA

I see Jake has a few OEM NOS pumps for only $220.
Modified 26mm pumps for $40 also which is a good deal.

Geoff

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Feb 13 2005, 03:27 PM)

I see Jake has a few OEM NOS pumps for only $220. Modified 26mm pumps for $40 also which is a good deal. Geoff

but... to use those i believ you need to do stuff to the cam gear

jake.... help a brotha out.....

HMMM.... the type 4 store may hold the answer.....

QUOTE

Oil Pump-RAT Modification Heavy duty RAT mod 30mm. NON full flow. Cover included

or....

QUOTE

Oil Pump-RAT Modification Heavy duty RAT mod 26mm. NON full flow. Cover included.

BUT!!! can i use this pump with my cam gear??? which is better.. 26mm or 30mm? are these AL? are they type 1 pumps? will they leak
Jake.... i need some answers

Many new oil pumps are of inferior quality these days, obviously we carry the best available! Clearances are tight and they wear well. They also work with 3 AND 4 bolt cams! (we tell you how) Use 26mm for T-1 and T-3 street cars, and 30mm for T-1 and 3 race cars. We recommend the 30mm pump in all T-4 engine applications (the oil system can handle the extra volume). WARNING: a 30mm pump in a Type 1 or Type 3 engine WILL blow out your oil cooler or cooler seals with 30, 40, or 20-50 weight oil when cold if you don't modify the pressure relief system! The Type 4 engine is safe from this condition.

$20.00
We modify the pump (Mill) so they are a true bolt-in for the type 4 engine. We keep these in stock for same day shipping.
from aircooled.net


I am going with the 30mm for the re-do engine

I believe that CB Performance has a T4 Hi-pressure/volume pump. The "Maxi Pump"

Whatever... Works on the stock cam gear as well.

But, I bet Jake could hook you up the best.

Later,
Tom

I have the same problem with my new engine with the 30 mm hd pump I installed. also converted the oil relife valve to a adjustable one but it did not help.

Bernie

How hot does the oil get? 235? 250?
Maybe unplug the oil lite....
ignorance is bliss

FWIW, I don't recall ever seeing a worn out T4 oil pump. I doubt the pump's the problem, and I suspect clearances are at the point that nothing short of new bearings and a blueprinted crank will fix it. The Cap'n

more pressure makes light go away....

Captain- crank has new bearings and was turned 10 under....
Stock oil pump was reused.....


geoff....
ill have to wait for jake to post.....

Hmmm..... CB performance pump..... ill look into it.

its been 2.5 years since i built this motor. Trouble free thus far. Just need a tad mo pressure...
i forget...can i ACCESS all the plugs to replace pistons (they are original)? As i recall.... we couldnt get the big slotted one out.
what should i do about the pistons?

Well, you are talking about two different things also, pressure and volume. Sounds like a slight pressure problem to me that new relief pistons might help. The larger 30mm pump will flow more (higher volume) but if the relief pistons are old and weak that won't help much.
As Kapt Krusty says maybe the clearances are suspect on the rods and mains. What were they set up for when it was rebuilt? Maybe a tad loose?
Too much end play so the rear main is pounding out...who knows.
Pour some straight 40w in it and try that.
Telling us the oil temps would help cuz if you are cooking the oil then a oil pump wont do squat.
Geoff

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Feb 13 2005, 05:56 PM)

Well, you are talking about two different things also, pressure and volume. Sounds like a slight pressure problem to me that new relief pistons might help. The larger 30mm pump will flow more (higher volume) but if the relief pistons are old and weak that won't help much. As Kapt Krusty says maybe the clearances are suspect on the rods and mains. What were they set up for when it was rebuilt? Maybe a tad loose? Too much end play so the rear main is pounding out...who knows. Pour some straight 40w in it and try that. Telling us the oil temps would help cuz if you are cooking the oil then a oil pump wont do squat. Geoff

crank: new oversize bearings (turned 10 under).
cam: new bearings and new cam.
oil pump.... stock.

PUMP issue
ok. so there are a few choices in oil pump land
*CB maxi - 26 mm
*jakes type 1 26mm
*jakes type 1 30mm
*steve stromberg's aluminum 38mm pump
*melling....
Which ones work without a cam gear mod????

Relief Piston issue
*how do u get the galley plugs out?
*can i access them without removing tin?
*what do i cap them with?

Time
can i do this in a weekend (as well as install tuna can/ and adjust valves)?

Melling fit on my 2.0 liter with a slight grinding on the end of the drive tang.


Keep in mind that the Melling, and for that matter any oil pump should be blue printed to specs, attention to using the thin gasket under the cover,and use of a cover with ridges to make sure it does not bow when tightened. A flat cover WILL bow. Any of these will reduce pressure. Your pump maybe's just in need of lapping body and cover, and getting a cover with a lip if your is not already so equiped.

before you buy a new one, check the old one, The other measurement is gear to body clearance, and gear lash. If these are out of spec, the pump can't be rebuilt.

measure everything, and see if yours can be put back into specification before buying a new one that may need it anyway. (some can be purchased pre-blueprinted by reputible engine builders if you prefer)

QUOTE (dmenche914 @ Feb 13 2005, 06:36 PM)

Melling fit on my 2.0 liter with a slight grinding on the end of the drive tang. Keep in mind that the Melling, and for that matter any oil pump should be blue printed to specs, attention to using the thin gasket under the cover,and use of a cover with ridges to make sure it does not bow when tightened. A flat cover WILL bow. Any of these will reduce pressure. Your pump maybe's just in need of lapping body and cover, and getting a cover with a lip if your is not already so equiped. before you buy a new one, check the old one, The other measurement is gear to body clearance, and gear lash. If these are out of spec, the pump can't be rebuilt. measure everything, and see if yours can be put back into specification before buying a new one that may need it anyway. (some can be purchased pre-blueprinted by reputible engine builders if you prefer)

dooes your melling leak?

Hey Guys
My Melling has been a leaky problem for a long time. I fix it once since it was put in, and now it needs to be done again. I think this spring I am going with Jakes 30mm, and the complete proceedure in the PPboards tech series. The hardest part is finding a thick piece of glass thats not too $$$.
I would sugest you maybe replace the case presure valve with a stock unit. I was always told, high volume yes - high presure no. Your spring might get a little week when hot, you seem to be confident that the rebuild is solid, why not try it. Another thing also, I have seen a type of popular oil, completely break down, for no reason.
I'll ramble.
A friend of mine got his oil changed with brand X, he drove it a long way home, about 45 min, and the oil lite came on as he pulled into the driveway. He checked to see it was full and clean, he called. The next day he came to my place, lite on just before he got here. I had already thought to order a sender unit, so we talked over a beer and then replaced it. Away he went, he called 45 min later to say as he came close to the house, lite came back on. Long story short I check everything again with guages and it ends up being just the oil, I dropped it, and added Castrol, and no more problems. true story, the new oil from brand X, had to have a long run, before the oil broke down.
I still say thumbs up to the pump and let us know how it goes.
WBR
Joe

QUOTE (JoeSpark @ Feb 13 2005, 08:00 PM)

Hey Guys My Melling has been a leaky problem for a long time. I fix it once since it was put in, and now it needs to be done again. I think this spring I am going with Jakes 30mm, and the complete proceedure in the PPboards tech series. The hardest part is finding a thick piece of glass thats not too $$$. I would sugest you maybe replace the case presure valve with a stock unit. I was always told, high volume yes - high presure no. Your spring might get a little week when hot, you seem to be confident that the rebuild is solid, why not try it. Another thing also, I have seen a type of popular oil, completely break down, for no reason. I'll ramble. A friend of mine got his oil changed with brand X, he drove it a long way home, about 45 min, and the oil lite came on as he pulled into the driveway. He checked to see it was full and clean, he called. The next day he came to my place, lite on just before he got here. I had already thought to order a sender unit, so we talked over a beer and then replaced it. Away he went, he called 45 min later to say as he came close to the house, lite came back on. Long story short I check everything again with guages and it ends up being just the oil, I dropped it, and added Castrol, and no more problems. true story, the new oil from brand X, had to have a long run, before the oil broke down. I still say thumbs up to the pump and let us know how it goes. WBR Joe

sweet.

im leaning toward steve's aluminum 38mm pump (he says it fits righ in - no machining) but its 2-3x more money than the rest.

38mm is better than 30mm correct?
melling is out.... stock is out... either 38mm or jakes stuff or maxi CB 26mm pump

38mm wow, I would think that is for a four with a front oil cooler set up. The 30mm should be plenty esp if you replace the oil relief pistons and springs. I switched to the HD ones which are just a hair longer than stock so you get a little bit more pressure when hot. When hot mine holds a good 12psi at idle even AXing now.
When is the lite supposed to go on?

Geoff

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Feb 13 2005, 08:13 PM)

38mm wow, I would think that is for a four with a front oil cooler set up. The 30mm should be plenty esp if you replace the oil relief pistons and springs. I switched to the HD ones which are just a hair longer than stock so you get a little bit more pressure when hot. When hot mine holds a good 12psi at idle even AXing now. When is the lite supposed to go on? Geoff

he runs them on stock 2.0 L motors....

38mm is too much?

im thinking that is the way to go, 38mm pump and new pistons.... = mucho pressure and no more problems.....

I don't know if the 38mm is overkill or what, pretty sure it a good thing for bigger motors but my 2.0l been running 12years + on the Melling, apart from some leak issues, it has performed flawlessly. It would be cool to know the specs of stock and melling, I think my melling is a 28 mm, buts been too many years, lost a lot of documentation.
Maybe more sugestion from guys that have tryed some of these
WBR
Joe

allright.... here is one of the galley plugs...

is the other one on the side of the sump with the 12 point cap?

bump....

I think I ran a melling for quite a while with good sucess.
but this is a different motor now and Its a front cooler car...

so Geoff, do you think 28 or 30mm is sufficient for a front cooler car?

30mm should be plenty of volume depending on your hose sizing. There are two things to consider with liquids, pressure and volume. ie:42psi and 10 gal per min. I think you could set up a oil pump too big so it would pump all the oil out faster than it comes back. Seen the test where the clear valve covers are used and most of the oil is trapped in the valve covers! It can't flow back thru the pushrod tubes fast enough! Add long hoses to an oil cooler and you have alot of oil outside of the oil sump trying to comeback.
You cetainly don't want your oil pump cavatating (sp) due to lack of oil in the sump. I am not a expert on this but maybe Jake or others have done some tests to see exactly what goes on.

Does the pressure increase as rpms rise? (What does it read at say, 4 grand?)

After my rebuild my oil temp would go up and pressure would drop, and I'd overheat. My thermostat was shot and I put my flaps in the wrong position. I fixed that and my temps came down to normal, and my pressure went up, but it was still a little low at idle - however when revving or accelerating, my pressure would zoom up nicely. So I changed oil (20-50) and now my pressure hovers at or a tad bit above 10psi at idle, no matter how warm it gets.

My 2.0 was a core that looked like it was dredged up from the Titanic, and the oil pump was seized and filled with lovely black gloop. After getting it cleaned, the gears and housing still looked decent, so I put it back in - I haven't had a problem yet, and it's anybody's guess how many miles are on it. I was concerned that my pump was shot too, but now the whole deal actually runs GREAT.



disclaimer: I'm a hack, and have had no other experience with a type 4
I'm not a racer, nor do I pretend to be one

Try new sender unit or pressure gauge. Long shot but the sender may be bad and a gauge would tell the truth.

Dude
Update?...I forgot about this thred
Did you check out aircooled's pump?. The link on the first page of this post...
Let us know !!!
Joe

Must of missed this one.

The s-melling pump is crap.

The only T1 pump to use is the schadek 26 or 30mm.
Use a stock cover and have it reground flat even if it's new.
If your cam bolts/gear are not modified it most likely it won't fit.

10 to 1 it's either your relief valve sticking/not seating proper or your bearings/end-play is beat. Push/pull your pulley (crank) back and forth, .006 is the wear limit.

It's dirty in there, you might try soap, and water.


M

non modified cam gear.

endplay was set when the engine was built....
im leaning toward steve strombergs drop in 38mm pump.

also...going to replace the relief piestons with the new weltmeister ones....

Is his 38mm pump modified so it fits??

Geoff

i asked him, he said it will go in with no mods
38mm AL pump

You will blow out your galleys with a 38mm pump.

You could possibly create alot more pressure than your stock rebuild was designed for....ie blowby...

If you are gonna drill and tap the galley plugs anyways, you will need to open the case to ensure no aluminum scrap lands inside.

It can be done in a weekend, but I would be looking for why the pressure was/is low to begin with...masking the problem with a new pump is only delaying the inevitable...

Open it up, measure the clearances and sleep well if your ok, fix it if you need...then drill and tap the galleys.

Rich

QUOTE (r_towle @ Feb 27 2005, 03:36 PM)

You will blow out your galleys with a 38mm pump. You could possibly create alot more pressure than your stock rebuild was designed for....ie blowby... If you are gonna drill and tap the galley plugs anyways, you will need to open the case to ensure no aluminum scrap lands inside. It can be done in a weekend, but I would be looking for why the pressure was/is low to begin with...masking the problem with a new pump is only delaying the inevitable... Open it up, measure the clearances and sleep well if your ok, fix it if you need...then drill and tap the galleys. Rich

car is a driver.... no leaks now... really dont want to split the case.
to replace oil PSI pistons... i need to drill/tap the case? i thought the galley plugs unscrewed.....

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Feb 27 2005, 05:42 AM)

Must of missed this one. The s-melling pump is crap.

Well this bites. I have a new melling in my new motor. I hope it dose'nt leak.

Im not sure what you did when you rebuilt the motor earlier...
If you already drilled and tapped the galley plugs then you should be ok with replacing the pistons and re-inserting the galley plugs....

If not, you are taking out a part (the galley plug) that is not easy to do without cracking the case, otherwise you can take it out from the outside, but you will risk getting metal in the case...you drill and tap the galley plugs....

This cannot be done in the car...

I would say, get thicker oil first, clean the oil cooler out, pressure test it (you can do this test with hardware store plumbing and an air compressor)
New filter, clean sump and see if there is any metal in there...

then drive it till it dies.

Rich

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 27 2005, 02:48 PM)

car is a driver.... no leaks now... really dont want to split the case. to replace oil PSI pistons... i need to drill/tap the case? i thought the galley plugs unscrewed.....

No, you don't have to drill/tap anything to change the oil press relief pistons. Just remove the large slotted plug on the bottom of the case and the 12mm or 14mm 12 point plug on the side of the case to access these parts. You have to change both oil press relief pistons.

QUOTE (Dominic @ Feb 27 2005, 05:21 PM)

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Feb 27 2005, 02:48 PM) car is a driver.... no leaks now... really dont want to split the case. to replace oil PSI pistons... i need to drill/tap the case? i thought the galley plugs unscrewed..... No, you don't have to drill/tap anything to change the oil press relief pistons. Just remove the large slotted plug on the bottom of the case and the 12mm or 14mm 12 point plug on the side of the case to access these parts. You have to change both oil press relief pistons.

thats what i figured. they unscrew....

engine come out of the car.... unscrew the 2 galley plugs.... replace oil pump (which pump??? To be decided)
and pop in the 2 new oil PSI pistons, and then button the whole thing back up correct?

Yeh, I'd get a full flow (FF) pressure relief cover from Gene Berg or I think Jake makes one. Just plug it and don't run it FF...the relief part will still work.
Should save you from a cooler blow out.

Of course those FF pump covers are spendy

QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Feb 27 2005, 05:31 PM)

Yeh, I'd get a full flow (FF) pressure relief cover from Gene Berg or I think Jake makes one. Just plug it and don't run it FF...the relief part will still work. Should save you from a cooler blow out. Of course those FF covers are spendy

mark - what do you recomend for a pump? i have an unmodified cam gear and cam bolts.....

The oil pressure relief cover is $ 15 dollars more.
I also have a cover that allows you to run an oil line to the turbo charger if fitted.
If your Pressure relief pistons are moving freely in there bore you shoud not blow out the galley plugs.

Cold mornings and running Straight wt heavier than needed oil will cause to much pressure in any engine.

One more thing here in So Cal a cold morning if 40 degrees.