The Arctic winter broke briefly today here, with temps near 60 for the first time since late October. So, Stef came over and we put the new clutch and trans in. First I went to turn the lights on in the shop. . . nothin? So I open the giant double doors to the Great Midwest NARP Assembly Building, and I see something odd Boy, I don't remember that bank of floresent lights leaning up against my tool box. . . .

Ya know, I bet they used to be attached to that strand of romex hanging right there. . .

Which means they probably bounced off the V8 right about. . . . . there. . . . . DOHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Well, maybe it is just a bad scuff. Yeah, that's it, a scuff. Lets get a look at it from the other side. No, no. That is a nice, sharp, 3/4" deep FRIGGIN' DENT!!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!

I hate when that happens!!

OUCH! i had a cabinet fall off the wall once, landed two inches from my car. YIkes.

Oh well. I'm calm now. Car needs paint pretty damn bad anyway. I guess I'll just have to get to it a little sooner than I planned. Waddayagonnado.
Blew all the white power from the broken floresent tubes off, and got to work.

First the new clutch. Stage 3 from KEP. Lookin' good

Sorry to hear about the scuffle---but the rest looks sweeeeet!!

I took a die grinder and opened up the throw out fork hole in the bell housing a little bit, and the new Stage 3 p plate actually had a slightly shorter hat than the Stage 2 I took out, giving me plenty of free play, solving my travel problem without having to bend the arm as suggested by Kennedy as a possible solution. (Thanks again for the info "Rich the Lurker")

Then the new & improved tall gear trans install. I just put the little bastard on my chest and sort of bench pressed it into place with Stef sitting at the ass end of the car guiding into the appropiate spot. (Insert your own joke HERE. . . . .) Went in surprisingly easy.

But now for the Hmmm part. Started the car up....vrooooom. Damn, I missed that sound. Went to put in into gear, wont go. Tried 1st & reverse, grinds bad. Clutch felt pretty lose. No surprise. Tighten her up, try again. . . .same damn thing. Hmmmmm. Turn engine off, try to put into gears, VERY tight, but with some effort, finally goes into all gears with car off, but not really easy. Try RedBeard's linkage adjustment proceedure, a little better but not much. Start it up, still won't go into any gear without grinding.

By that point it was time to rejoin the family back inside the ranch, so I had to call it a day in the shop. I will call Brad Mayuer tommorow and see what he thinks, but I get my best advise here, so, whadaya guys think??? Any ideas?

Is the shift rod hitting something?

QUOTE (McMark @ Mar 6 2005, 08:43 PM)

Is the shift rod hitting something?

No. The rod is the same one that has been in the car for a couple years now, and worked fine. I was wondering though. Is it possible to screw up the alignment of the rods even if the cone screws are in the right place?

Man, sorry to hear about the light falling on the car. Bummer.

As for the shift linkage, I can't help you. Only thing I could suggest is the presence of anti-freeze sitting around. Waydddady need that shit for?

Oh yeah, right - I get it now. Damned wasser-pumpers.



You're close by (relatively). Might have to meet up sometime.

Later,
Tom

I had that problem, but I think mine was a little different. First off, I didnt have to grind anything on my shift fork. I did however have to remove the washer from behind the shift fork ball. Once that was out I had full travel of my clutch. It sounds to me that you are not engaging your clutch enough to shift into gear. I would start there. Make sure you use the correct throwout bearing. They are different from the 4 bangers. You have the same clutch I have and that is what I did. The problem I had with gear changing was the linkage was hitting on the engine cross bar. Limiting the movement. Also, check to make sure all of your linkage bushings are in really good shape. I put in all new and its a little tight but I think I can adjust it out. Sorry to hear about the light mishap. That would really upset me. Kind of like when I went to grab something off the top of the car and the Makita 9.6 volt screwgun fell and put a nice dent in the top of the door. It hurt. Pissed me off too. Good luck with it. I am sure it is just an adjustment.

Chris,

Did you have the clutch disc off the flywheel when you changed the pressure plate?

I was thinking the disc may have stuck to the flywheel side over the winter.

Try putting the car into gear and stepping the clutch in and see if the car will roll.

Sorry to hear about your damage. If I lived closer I'd help you fix it.

How much was the stage 3 clutch package?

I need to get a new clutch for mine (Its letting go at above 1/2 throttle... NOT GOOD.. lol)

Scott, do you know EXACTLY what clutch/pressureplate/flywheel I have??

A rule of thumb
If it can shift with the motor off, its in the clutch.
Don't dismiss the possibility of a bad (new) preasure plate.
Update !!
Cheers
Joe

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Mar 6 2005, 10:50 PM)

How much was the stage 3 clutch package? I need to get a new clutch for mine (Its letting go at above 1/2 throttle... NOT GOOD.. lol) Scott, do you know EXACTLY what clutch/pressureplate/flywheel I have??

Wasnt that a 2700 pound Kennedy? If you call them, they will be able to tell you exactly what it is. Wasnt it also new?

The PP was I think, the clutch I dont think so...

That is the way it came. I never used it and it was all together. So I was just assuming it was all one matched unit.

Thanks for the condolences and the flying lights guys. In the relative scheme of stuff that has happened to others around here lately, it is easier to put it into perspective. The farmer that we bought the place from used nails to hold them up, which aint gonna cut it in a building that sees 130' temperature swings every year. The new lights will be put up with screws.

The p plate and the disk are brand new, and the fly was just resurfaced, with all being installed yesterday, so they can't be frozen/locked up. The throw out is not new, but is the correct Kennedy part with only about 3000 miles on it, and moves smoothly and quitely. The bushings are less than 2 yrs old throughout the entire trans linkage including the little one that goes in the hole where the bar goes through the bracket at the trans end.

I just spoke to Brad Mayuer, and he made a very good point. If the trans is grinding, no matter what else may or may not be wrong, the clutch is not releasing properly. If the clutch was disengaging, then nothing in the trans should be turning. Soooooo, maybe the clutch needs to be tightened a bit more. It seemed pretty darn tight to me, but I have a history of being wrong on that question. I'm going to try starting the car with the clutch in, and then see if I can get it into gear. If not, I will tighten it a bit more. It also occurred to me that when I had the fly checked for warping, they cleaned it with a scotch brite pad to remove the blueing from the fly. It left the surface with a tiny bit of texture, almost like a bead hone. I wondered at the time if that might cause the clutch to grab.

Andrew, the Stage III p plate and stock 228mm Sachs disk from Kennedy cost me about $300. I don't recall the exact price because they gave a discount on the p plate (long and unimportant story), then nicked me $9.00 for 2 "shorter head bolts" to hold my throw out tube that appear to be identical to the bolts I can get for .19 at Farm & Fleet, and then they had a little trouble getting it out to me, so we agreed to split the cost of overnighting it. So, I don't recall the specific prices with out looking at the invoice, but I would say $325 is probably the normal price for the p plate & disk.

Thanks a bunch!

Hope you get it fixed!

Im starting to think it may not be my clutch acutally letting go.. but possibly something else... (I think the linkage is catching and releasing the clutch just enough to spin at high enough torque...)

Andrew

If you are still using the stock cable system it souds like the tube has pulled loose in the tunnel , or the pedal pin is broke. Same symptoms anyway. Good luck

I had the same problem with my dodge superbee.I mis-matched Borg-beck and Diaphragm style pressure plate and clutch.The "fingers" of the Borg-Beck pressure plate were hitting the springs on the I.D. of the clutch plate causing it to never disengage the clutch.

Chris,

Have not been here in a while but it was a pleasant surprise to see your still wreching on what used to be mine.

I agree with Brad and think it is just a adjustment issue and suggest you make 1/2 turn changes to make the clutch move "forward" until it shifts without grinding.

Since you have changed to a different style clutch/pp, the location of pivot ball may not be in the desired location. Removing washer(s) will do the same as loosening clutch cable and adding washer(s) will provide more disengaging action (moving clutch forward). I would not go to the trouble of making washers changes until you've used up all your adjustment range with clutch cable.

You may have to make several adjustments to get clutch in range and something I learned by spending allot of time on my back.

I never liked the idea of throw out bearing riding on pp forks during my original installation but Scott @ Renegade told me this was normal and they have never experienced a failure.

I followed the same shifter procedure you mentioned and marked shift rod by scribing fore/aft and left/right marks in the event it was ever removed again. It does not sound like you've done anything to prevent the use of those settings. To speed things up, you could tighten clutch cable until t/o bearing makes contact with pp and check for grinding. If this works, just take it easy the first few times you apply torque to ensure you don't have a clutch slipping issue. This is where the 1/2 turn or less on cable adjustment really comes in to play. There is a fine line between grinding the gears and clutch slippage. Needless to say, this is where the difference comes in when bolting 400hp vs. 80hp to the 901. With the flat 4, clutch slippage is not much of a issue once you get the gear grinding adjusted out.

Not sure if we covered this while you were here but the clutch cable has been replaced and the pedal cluster was also rebuilt just prior to my purchase of car. A new bushing was also installed in clutch pivot fork when I installed the conversion.

A couple of things that I picked up from other guys that have done similar conversions that can cause problems and are easily overlooked:

-engine and transaxle mounting bolts to chassis are tight
-engine to transaxle mounting bolts are tight
-tall oil filters will cause contact with shift rod

Sorry for being so long winded but I hope you find some of this useful.

Regards,

John

Hey John,

Great to see you on the board. Strange days around here lately.

I think step one is tighten the clutch further. You probably hit it right on the head. I'm adjusting the V8 like it was a 1.7. I had some similar trouble with this the 1st time I put the engine back in. I thought I learned something then, but I'm probably being too conservative again here. I am also uncomfortable with the throw out riding on the p plate, and was hoping with the recent changes I could avoid that, but maybe not.

Temps went back in the toilet here today, so I may not get to fooling with it for a few days. I will let you all know.

Did a little experiment when I got home tonight, and I think the result is clear: clutch just needs to be tightened.

I started the car in 1st gear, clutch in. Tried to then put it into reverse never letting clutch out. It was very stiff coming out of 1st gear and I couldn't put it into reverse without grinding. So, obviously even with the clutch to the floor, trans is turning a little. Not enough to make the car move against the brake, but enough to cause gear clash. I also let it run for a few minutes, which lubed the innerds up good and proper, allowing me to move it through the gears much much easier when I shut it off.

I thought seriously about taking the 2 minutes it would require to adjust the clutch, even though I was still in a suit , but I am hard enough on suits as it is, and it is 19' out there now, I decided it could wait until later this week to get it right. Course, its supposed to snow again on thursday. Let's see, 1/2" of snow, so local knuckleheads will drop 2" of salt on the road, it won't rain enough to wash that away for weeks, so I should be driving her by, oh June. . . ish.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

I have had the trans in and out of the car 6 times in the last 10 days or so. I have experimented with bending the throw out arm, grinding the arm, and adding and removing washers under the pivot ball. Bending and grinding was all a big waste of time. In the end, one thin washer under the pivot ball was what turned out to be the right combination to give me what SHOULD be a working clutch. Instead I am left with a clutch that shows signs of being too loose and too tight at the same time.

Right now, I can start the car in gear and clutch in, and the car doesn't make any signs of wanting to move. If I set the e brake, and let out the clutch, the engine won't kill until the pedal is almost to the top. Thus it is not locking until the pedal is almost released, and normally would mean the cable is tighter than it needs to be. Problem is, I still can't shift the trans or it grinds like crazy. Not a little, and not just for a second. Loud, and relentlessly. Thus, the clutch is not seperating the engine from the trans, acting like the cable is too loose.

At this point, I can only think of 2 possible causes. 1) My new pressure plate is somehow defective and not releasing in the course of what should be a sufficient distance of T.O. travel, or 2) my pilot bearing, with less than 2000 miles on it, has somehow failed, and is turning the tip of my trans input shaft even with the clutch in. Either way, looks like trans is coming out for #7. If anybody has any suggestions for other things I should be looking at, I'm all ears.

I just got off the phone with Dave at KEP, and it seems I have the wrong throw out bearing

The bearing I have is a KEP part that is different than a stock 914. It looks similar to a stock bearing, but is mounted in an odd sort of "carrier" bracket. Turns out the style I have was made for a style of P plate that KEP used to sell, and it was designed to accomodate the only type of springs they could get their P plates made with. It is shorter than a stock bearing, which is why it is unable now to push the springs in far enough to release the clutch. Now KEP makes their own P plates, and use springs that work with a stock bearing. KEP tells me if my new P plate has "flat fingers" (and it should since it is brand freaking new), then I need to switch back to a stock throw out (which of course I don't have). Dave apologized, and said somebody should have told me that when I ordered the new clutch.

So, out comes the trans again tonight hopefully.

Sorry for the drama Chris, but it makes for good reading!

have you looked at the adj at the pedal end of the cable? the light didn't go through the windshield. that's one in the + column.

k

QUOTE (seanery @ Mar 21 2005, 02:05 PM)

Sorry for the drama Chris, but it makes for good reading!  :lol:

Heck, I agree

I don't really have the time to waste on this bastard right now, but on the plus side 1) I'm NOT an idiot (at least not based on this anyway ), this train wreck wasn't my fault 2)Weather still sucks here anyway, and I should have it straight by the time the weather finally turns in the next week or two.

Hope this works out for you
I have been seriously turned upside down with
New/mixed up parts
Maybe take 5 and check the flywheel specs, maybe he turned it wrong, depths, hieght. cost nothing to check and saves you a re and re of the trans if its out.
Good luck with it
cheers
Joe

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGH, clang, clang, clang, thud, CRASH!!!

You have just enjoyed the Midwest Theater for the Automotively Retarded's rendition of "What it Sounded Like When Chris Heaved a Breaker Bar Arcoss the Shop Which Then Crashed into an Old Shelf Full of Junk, and Knocked it Over", with Josh Groban on backup vocals.

What the guy at KEP told me is crap. The press plate I have IS intended for the throw out I have, and there doesn't appear to be any freaking difference in the dimensions between the KEP and stock anyway.

I am completely out of ideas. If anybody has any pointers here, I sure could use 'em. Other than the possibility that the new press plate was built wrong (and it looks right to me) I am stuck.

Oh, and the pilot bearing is fine. Rolls smooth and easy.

Just to let you know, Josh Groban will be in concert in Rockford on Saturday the 26th. Go see him then all the car problems will seem small.

QUOTE (Headrage @ Mar 21 2005, 06:58 PM)

Just to let you know, Josh Groban will be in concert in Rockford on Saturday the 26th. Go see him then all the car problems will seem small.

Funny thing about that Allan. That same day I have a chance to have my balls Super glued to the side of a rocket which will then be fired into the sun. I wasn't that interested at 1st, but if my wife mentions that concert, I'm signing up for the glue.

Good luck with that.

Chris,

I would try something easier than pulling the transaxle back out right now. You mentioned that the clutch did not fully grab until clutch pedal was almost fully extended. That is what I remember as normal with the original Renegade supplied clutch. It would begin to grab at a little more than 1/2 and then fully engage when almost fully let go.

Adjust clutch throw until your not crunching gears and give it a test drive..............no matter where it feels fully engaged by pedal travel. If you have a kevlar clutch (like what was originally installed in car, drive it like granny for the first 100 miles). The life of your clutch will depend on how you break it in if your running kevlar.

If you can't get the gears to stop crunching, I'd go back through the shifter adjustment procedure at least one more time.

What I remember when it was adjusted just right is that it would make a slight gear clash sound (going for reverse) when cold unless you double clutched it...............again, only required when stone cold. Something else I found abnormal was that with the rear wheels suspended, they would turn when trans. was in neutral and engine running. I thought this was abnormal but learned to accept it.

John