Innovate Stuff

The Innovate Motorsports people are soon to release a new toy for wideband O2 sensing, the LC-1. I just looks like a fat plug you plug a stock Bosch sensor into, and will dump out a simple analog voltage (programmable, even), so you can use everything from a DMM to your Megasquirt to some other datalogging tool, and leave the thing hooked up all the time, rather than having the big and expensive LM-1 meter sliding around in the car.

Now I just have to finish assembling my MS...

Looks like it's out, kinda. It's now on the products page, but outta stock until May 5th: LC-1.

how do you read what its saying????

Lm1 has a user interface.... does the Lc1 hook up to a computer?

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Apr 19 2005, 07:38 PM)

how do you read what its saying???? Lm1 has a user interface.... does the Lc1 hook up to a computer?

if'n i'm reading it correctly, the unit will give a signal to the programmable fuel injection for closed loop operation (the brain will try to keep the a/f ratio within whatever range you tell the brain it "should" be)

Yes, it's primarily meant to be hooked to an ECU, so you can use full closed loop control with an AFR target of other than 14.7:1. However, the outputs can be set up to display various things (there are two, both active all the time), and one of the normally displays 10:1 to 20:1 as 0-1v (or 0-5v, I forget). Displaying this can be done with a very simple circuit that costs about $10 to assemble on an array of 10 or 20 LEDs, or you can use a multi-function gauge they're making, or you could even set up the output to mimic a narrowband sensor's output, and use one of the narrowband gauges on the market, except this one is actually accurate beyond 14.7:1.

The Megasquirt people are just falling all over themselves with this, as MS can be set to target any AFR you like with the output of this thing.

The only downside for the 914 is that the Type IV puts enough oil into the exhaust that you'd likely poison an O2 sensor in a few hundred miles of use. It could be useful if I end up doing that Soob conversion, though.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Apr 19 2005, 08:24 PM)

...The only downside for the 914 is that the Type IV puts enough oil into the exhaust that you'd likely poison an O2 sensor in a few hundred miles of use...

Really? Never read this anywhere.

thats too bad... oil kill 02 sensors eh?

for James to 'esplain himself

QUOTE

Really? Never read this anywhere.

I would tend to think that yes, an aircooled engine is going to have more oil in the exhaust due to the pistons/rings having not as tight as fit as a watercooled engine can get away with,

Has anyone have any experience with the UEGO 1000 from EFIsystems? This is there unit:

UEGO 1000



I was recommended this wideband controlled over the LM-1 by a reputable Porsche tuner who has used both extensively. He mentioned that the LM-1 had to be reset and/or recalibrated constantly.

I am looking for a wideband controller that can output a value to the electromotive TEC3 brain for extended tunability. I really don't need a display because it will be logged in the TEC3 datalogger. I want something that will be plug and play...essentially leaving it alone, will this new LC-1 be an good option?

-Britain

QUOTE

The LC-1 (aka Lambda Cable) is a complete wideband controller built in to a sealed and rugged cable. It features the same industry-leading patented digital circuit found in the proven LM-1, and includes digital in & out, plus two programmable analog outputs. The LC-1 can connect directly to the XD-1 for a standalone AFR gauge, and is ideal for using with an ECU, a piggy-back fuel controller, a laptop/OBD-II tuner, a separate data logger system, or a dyno. (If your dyno has analog inputs, you can start doing 8-cylinder tuning without even waiting for LogWorks 2.0). MSRP on the LC-1 is $199 with a sensor, and $149 without a sensor, so you can see we’re still serious about bringing you the best in pro-quality digital tools at prices for the pro and enthusiast alike!

Also, what is the digital input for?

Hm. Can't find a reference anywhere. I've read this a few times on EFI boards and mailing lists, though now that I think of it, this advice first appeared back in the days when WB sensors were so expensive ($250 each), that any threat to it was a very bad thing. The Bosch LSU sensor used by the LC-1 is only $25 each, and is a different enough design that it may survive a harsher environment. The sensors can certainly be poisoned by excess fuel, oil, or coolant (in water-cooled stuff), so blowing a head gasket can kill a sensor, too, as can running way rich.

Certainly, the only air-cooled production engine I can think of that used an O2 sensor as part of an OEM injection system is the later 911 engines. The only VW engines that would have been used in the era of O2 sensors are water-cooled, except MAYBE some of the very late Bus stuff (some of which was water-cooled).

The bulk of the OEM systems using a WB sensor for closed loop control usually run the engine leaner than ideal for lowest emissions and best fuel economy. Some, esp. Hondas, deliberately run VERY lean (17:1). This is WHY WB sensors came into being in the first place. Many of the early sensors, in fact, had a wider measurement range and better accuracy on the lean side than on the rich side, going from 20:1 to about 13:1. The Innovate people claim accuracy from 20:1 to 10:1, and they seem to be relatively stand-up people, so it looks like the LSU is a better sensor than the early Honda units. I have no idea if any of the sensors, even the LSU, would cope well with running at 12-13:1 for long periods, as the rich mixtures may poison them over the long haul.

Something to experiment with if/when I ever get one of these things.

Britain, you should go poking around the msefi forums. There's some discussion of the other wideband units in comparison to the Innovate units. There's a LOT of misinformation out there, some caused by ignorance, some caused by, um, commercial motives. The Innovate stuff CAN be calibrated fairly easily, sometimes TOO easily (the "free air" calibration requires that the sensor be removed from the pipe, really). I have no actual experience with any of these things, but I know some of the people doing the discussing, and they DO have direct experience with them.

In addition to the one Britain showed, the Tech-Edge people (Aussie company) also have a compact unit for roughly the same price as Innovate called the 2C0. It's not quite as small or tidy as the Innovate. The Tech-Edge site also has some discussion on the differences between their stuff and the Innovate, which seems pretty fair-minded. Everyone seems to have a healthy respect for the guy that founded Innovate, and the way his controller works seems to be quite different from the way a lot of the other controllers work, and it's apparently quite clever. I don't fully understand what he's doing, but I still don't fully understand how these sensors work, either.

One of the things I like about Innovate is they're practically local, in San Juan Capistrano. EFI Systems is in South Carolina.

I have had the Bosch LSU sensor on my car for about 5,000 miles (probably about 1/2 with turbo and half without). My engine is a 100k-mile worn-out oil-spitting typeIV and so far the only problems I've had with my LSU sensor is that I got water in the plug twice. I sealed the plug and it's been happy ever since. No problemo.

As to the comment about needing to recalibrate constantly... Well I've only recalibrated twice in a year. And it was only done to see if it was "off". It wasn't. Calibration takes about 30 seconds by the way. No big whoop.

-Ben M.

Sorta off-topic: If you hook this new LC-1 up to a MS ECU, can you program different A/F ratios for different loads or is it one A/F target across the whole spectrum? It would be nice if for example you could tell it you want 13:1 at high vaccum, 12.3:1 at atmospheric, and 11:1 under boost. (just example numbers mind you). Can it do this?

-Ben M.

Ben

Any of the wideband units can do this. The wideband controller just supplies a voltage to the ECU. Most supply a 0-5 volt or 0-4 volt signal. What the ECU does with it is up to the program that is being run. I'm using a Techedge unit and it works pretty well. The corrections are always behind an injection cycle so if the rate of change and the allowed amplitude are too great it can actually make a decent tune a little worse. I suspect that with a huge grid this would be less of a problem but, with a 16 X 16 it can be.

Dave

Dave,
I think you missunderstood my question (I wasn't very clear). What I'm currious about is with regard to the Megasquirt. Can you set multiple A/F targets based on manifold pressure, or are you limited to setting a single A/F target?

-Ben M.

The one I run has an 8 X 8 grid for AFR. RPM vs MAP

Dave

QUOTE (airsix @ Apr 21 2005, 09:25 AM)

Dave, I think you missunderstood my question (I wasn't very clear). What I'm currious about is with regard to the Megasquirt. Can you set multiple A/F targets based on manifold pressure, or are you limited to setting a single A/F target? -Ben M.

Ben,

I was just playing with my Link software, it looks like I can only set the A/F for a global setting and not just one zone...can you setup for multiple ranges??

I can also vouch that the type IV in reasonable tune does NOT kill wideband O2 sensors. I have had one on my car for over a year now, it still works great.

QUOTE (DNHunt @ Apr 21 2005, 08:56 AM)

The one I run has an 8 X 8 grid for AFR. RPM vs MAP Dave

So, yes.

You can set it up so for a given MAP and a given engine speed, you want an AFR of X. Thus, you can easily set it to run leaner in the usual "cruising" range (mid revs, low MAP) and richer in the usual "more power, scotty!" range (high MAP, all revs). Of course, this is also exactly what the VE table does, too, so this is somewhat redundant. You could set all of this up statically with no O2 sensor at all. As Dave hints, the problem with relying on the O2 sensor for real-time is that it lags a bit when you're changing things rapidly (stomping on the gas). Using the O2 code to *create* an initial map for you by setting it up and driving around carefully, however, can be a great time saver. MS has done this for quite some time, but only until the WB stuff became available has it been possible to do this reliably off 14.7:1.

Nice to hear the LSU can survive an aging Type IV, too. Happy to be wrong about that one.

Trying to respond to multiple comments in a single post...

1) Mike, my ECU does not have ANY input for an O2 sensor. I hold the laptop in one hand and the LM1 in the other. I am the only link between them. Having the data-logger on the LM1 has been a HUGE help.

2) lapuwali said "this is also exactly what the VE table does, too, so this is somewhat redundant". Well, sort of. It's only redundant if you have a good VE table. The VE table is only as good as the guy doing the tuning (or his available resources). I like the idea of using the wideband O2 hooked up to the ECU and using the software to BUILD a VE table for you (or at least get you close).

3) "Nice to hear the LSU can survive an aging Type IV, too. Happy to be wrong about that one." Well, I wouldn't draw that conclusion yet. Two of us have said we've been running one for a year. So we know they will last a year.

-Ben M.

QUOTE (airsix @ Apr 21 2005, 09:54 AM)

3) "Nice to hear the LSU can survive an aging Type IV, too. Happy to be wrong about that one." Well, I wouldn't draw that conclusion yet. Two of us have said we've been running one for a year. So we know they will last a year.

As I said above, when WBO2 sensors ran $250 apiece, this would have been a concern. At $25 each, a one year or 5000mi lifespan is adequate. It just becomes a tuneup part. If it lasts two years or 10K miles, even better.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Apr 21 2005, 10:08 AM)

At $25 each, a one year or 5000mi lifespan is adequate. It just becomes a tuneup part. If it lasts two years or 10K miles, even better.

You are forgetting the miserly nature of the 914 community. $25 a year for maintenance! Are you crazy! That's extortion!

-Ben M.

I believe the 1979 VW Bay Window Bus had an O2 sensor stock (at least the California version) This was an air cooled bus. I assume the later air cooled Vanagons had them also, as they ran basically the same 2 liter engine as the 1979 Bus.

Oil or rich running can gunk them sensors up so they do not work right, sometimes you can clean them and get them working again.

One thing to note, If you have exhaust leaks prior to the sensor, the O2 content read by the sensor will be high, so the sensor will command the brain to run richer, which gunks it up, and tends to kill the cataylst also (had this problem on my 86 water cooled Vanagon.) So no exhaust leaks, else you get a false reading of high oxygen content.

Looks like the LC-1 is out. I'm still at least a couple months from needing one. Someone needs to get one and tell us how they like it! Looks like a smokin deal. Tidy package too.

QUOTE (Gary @ May 7 2005, 03:38 PM)

Looks like the LC-1 is out. I'm still at least a couple months from needing one. Someone needs to get one and tell us how they like it! Looks like a smokin deal. Tidy package too.

so, anyone running this unit yet??

I just ordered one, I should have later this week (just in time for me to be gone for a week so it'll sit collecting dust )

Even tho I have the LM-1 (partnership with Mark D. and James M.), I thought it would be nice to have the wideband feedback full time.