I'm going out on a limb here, but IMO there is vitually NO WAY you can do a "quality" rebuild of any 911 6 cylinder engine for $6200.
The prices in Wayne's book are very out of date.
Parts are much, much higher now.
Ever price a set of pistons & cylinders lately?
And easy $4-6k just there.
Depending on how
many parts are worn out, the picture just gets worse.
The big builders (i.e. Rothsport) will charge you $20k up to $30k to do a complete
engine rebuild.
There's a reason for that cost....and it's not all labor.
There is a lot of machining required, again quite expensive.

I think you're all kidding yourselves in this link.
Good condition, low mileage engines are rare as can be.
So now you're stuck with a rebuild on whatever condition engine you can fine.
To do a top end only is really a sketchy idea.
Add to this that most of us....even the mechanically adept....would be in over our heads with a 6 cylinder engine rebuild.
So much experience goes into the proper rebuild that the average guy is going to miss something during the process, and then you flushed a bunch of money down the drain.

Again all the above IMHO.
My takeaway.... rebuilding a 911 engine is not a trivial or inexpensive proposition, and not for the weak hearted.
But they are the best sounding automotive engine when done correctly bar none.

One thing I forgot about if you're going to do your own engine work. There are lots of speciality tools you'll need....i.e. the cam wrenches, etc. All that stuff adds up fast You'll go through a couple thousand really quick on the necessary engine cradle, specialty tools, torque wrenches, etc, etc.

Wayne's book is very good at detailing all the tools you'll need for the various jobs.

I do agree it's not a cheap or easy task. There are several people that are mechanically inclined that have rebuilt their own motors on pelican. It's not easy but can be done. It's just the overhead cam's that create most of the complication, other than that its not too far off from a type 4. But I do agree it is a risk to build your own motor.

As far as pricing I think for the machine work +20% would be close, best to call your local machine shop to verify. P&C's can be rebuilt if you have nikasil's I bought a set from EBS for ~$2600. Crankshafts are rare and expensive, luckily you only need one if the old one was badly damaged. They are nitrided so they are very strong.

Another note it is another level of complexity to do the bottom end, I would be less worried to tackle just a top end rebuild than an entire rebuild. You can also do alot of the work yourself and have a shop assemble the bottom end for you. Top end is still complex, but you can take your time until you get it right.

Its also very labor intensive, like 80+hours. That I believe is part of the reason for the high rebuild costs.

Buy a core inspect it very well, add up the costs, if it ends up being too expensive just sell the parts off...

Many machine shops are not going to be equipped to machine a 911 engine or won't mess with them (too much risk) and then there are some that you would not want to be doing your machining.

When Jeff had his 2.7 apart and took it down to Competition Engineering they looked over the parts and quoted him $7K just for machine work. He found a 3.2 in a 912 in LA for $7.5K (I think) and he had go down and pull the engine.

Jim

Its only in your mind . It could be a good build, but who cares its yours.

Very true, price of admission for a great builder is 20 / 30 k these days.

But DIY can keep cost down especially on a stock rebuild.
But if you're thinking performance below will give you idea on what's involved with a hot street build. Be clear my engine is just a "mild" build, "wild" could double the cost...easy.


I'd say I have $11K into my engine, did all the machining myself (friend helped on some of the hard bits) except the rods and balance. Got my cylinders replated through LN. Waited for deals on some things and a trade on my carbs and dizzy so they would add another $3.5K.
BTW during the build I was cold offered $5K for the Mahle RS piston and cylinder set, my cost was $2600 for piston and plating.

I wouldn't sell it at firesale for less than $25K, really I doubt I'd sell unless it was an offer of at least $30K USD.
But then I have no interest in selling it, it's not for sale.

Below is the build list to give you an idea of what's involved and I 'd say I have more like 120+ hours labour into this engine.

Engine build sheet for 3.0 1974 914 six conversion

Engine 3.0L, 70.4mm X 95mm, 10.1: 1 CR, Twin Plug

Case, 1979, 3.0, serial # *6399XXX, 930/13, 930.101.104.4R, Supertec head studs
Crank, stock, std/std, polished and magnafluxed, converted to CW distributor drive gear
Rods, stock, rebuilt big and small end, new bushings, ARP bolts and nuts
Flywheel stock, with custom 914-901 adapter ring, CSP 228mm bus HD pressure plate
Full engine balance, pressure plate and adapter ring balanced separately
Main bearings, new glyco, DFL (Dry Film Lube) coated
#8 Main bearing, good used original Porsche, DFL coated
Rod bearings, new glyco, DFL coated
Intermediate shaft bearings, new Porsche, DFL coated
Gasket set, new nose and rear main seal, Supertec sealant kit
Pump, stock blueprinted and DFL coated , cooler stock 911 modified to 914/6 spec
Pistons, Mahle, new, 3.0 RS, DFL coated skirts, ceramic coated tops, Goetze rings
Cylinders, stock 3.0 nickasil, replated Milenium/LN engineering, stock gaskets, .025mm base gasket
Heads, 3.0 big port, minor port work, twin plug
Valves, stock size, exhaust new TRW sodium, intake new AE
Valve springs, Eibach race, retainers early stock, keepers stock modified
Ceramic chambers and exhaust ports
Cams, WEB-CAM, 120/104, set at 5.2mm/.10 lash, 964 cores modified to 901 spec
Towers, spray bars R&R, tapped and cleaned, rockers resurfaced, RSR rocker shaft seals
Chains, new IWIS, new cam sprockets, keys and pins
Tensioners, hydraulic, no fail modification
906 style cylinder cooling deflectors
Cooler, stock, 3.0, modified for 914


Carburetors, Weber 40mm IDA, rebuilt, new carb kits, 34mm venturies, 135 main jets, F3 emulsion tubes, 180 air correction, 55 idle, Ported stock manifolds, custom phenolic spacers.
K&N filters and rain hats, Weber linkage
Carter fuel pump

Distributor, Twin Plug, Patrick/Jarvis, CW, MSD internals, uses Jaguar XJS-12 cap (1989-1996),
Plug wires custom labled twin plug, Patrick Motorsports
Ignition, MSD 6AL, twin MSD high vibration coils, max RPM 6800
Spark plugs, NGK BPR5ES (BPR6ES also available for tuning)

Headers, 914, 1-1/2” MSDS, ceramic coated
Add the fan/alt, shroud, custom wire harness, etc...

Bought most of the parts 4-5 years ago when the Canadian buck was at par, start pricing that puppy out at today's prices and your butthole will pucker

I've thought about doing a tool rental, I think I have just about everything except an early main seal installer, but it's likely not feasible because I'm in Canada.
Plus I have no idea what fair rates would be, plus deposit, a percentage for tool damage, insurance, etc.

boxsterfan,

what kind of max budget for engine rebuild were you hoping was realistic when you posted this thread?

what kind of budget you setting aside for related conversion parts and other general upgrades to accompany the more powerful engine?

aside from these, will you be paying for any labor?

everyone wants a six, no doubt, but many settle for suby or chevy power due to less cost, and in some cases more modern transaxles.

all the best with your car, looking forward to seeing it progress.

gas guzzling v8, sloppy trans, jim





quote name='boxsterfan' date='Feb 15 2016, 05:41 PM' post='2303525']
Which /6 motor is cheaper to rebuild? 2.7L or the 3.0L?

1. Assume core motor is in good condtion and no crazy findings when you tear it down.
2. Assume you are building the motor for longevity
3. You are putting this in a 914/6 conversion (was /4)
[/quote]

I like Mark have built a 2.7 rs spec engine and currently doing a 83 3.0 for my brothers 914.
I can tell you this, my brother got a sweet deal on the 3.0. The po was upgrading to a 3.6 and the 3.0 was a running engine per the shop doing the swap. If you look around like we did there's deals to be had. With that said both engines had there fair share of problems. On the 3.0 it was resealed by the shop doing the swap and had pressure fed tensioners installed at the same time. I started to check the 3.0 over and figured I'd better retorque the head studs. That came to an end fast after I snapped off a lower stud. It did start to take the torque but it didn't feel right then snap. Long story short apart it came. So far the main difference in the two builds is the machine shop cost. My 2.7 had a linebore to standard , shuffle pins, case savers on all headstuds/case through chain stud/ trans mount studs, spigot faces machined flat, all that work was done at Ollie's machine ( go to their website to view the cost). That was not a cheap machine shop bill but it needed to be done. I had a local shop polish and inspect the crank, install new rod wrist pin bushings, and clean a few other misc parts. The same shop removed one of the snapped off head studs in the 3.0, polished the crank , inspected the rods, cleaned the case, cam towers, and chain boxes. Once the case on both engines where sealed up the prices seamed to be close on other parts. The 3.0 parts seam to be a little bit higher in cost. Both engines got replated nikasil cylinders and new je pistons. The added cost to the 3.0 came when we went to buy big port heads. They need to be sent out for a rebuild yet but total cost once done is $1300.00 on heads alone. Cams/rockers need to be sent out at a cost of $700.00. Based on what is or is being done on both engines the 3.0 is still well under cost of the 2.7. If I had to do it again I'd opt for a 3.0 for sure .
Both engines are getting the same induction, ignition, exhaust so the big expense comes down to machine shop repairs.

Just an FYI I think I know of a 3.2 that's coming up for sale in Toronto.

No details yet, but as long as I'm being paid you know a posable PPI guy.

I asked the guy to list it here in the FS section.

Well, golly.....
Spend a little time on the Pelican 911 engine rebuild forum.....about 6-8 months ought to do it. There were several fellas (years ago) that were building engines and not trying to sell ya something. It takes some research just to understand WTF they are trying to tell you.

Yes, there are a bunch of special tools needed and a Tech manual. I've sold mine for about what I paid for them.....about 15 years ago. Engine build authors of late, are trying to sell books......IMO, about 30% of the "opinions" are pure BS used to cover their asses.....

Line boring a mag case is a waste of money. If a drag hone won't clean it up......shit can it. It will re-warp as soon as you heat it up, regardless.....but if it makes you feel better......Bruce Anderson has passed but his words have not.(that is a hint)

Studs, case savers, et al have their champions....make you own choice. The proof will be in the pudding.

I, like every one else, have an opinion & you'll find more on Pelican....

Pudding pics.....it ain't rocket science.



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420]

But then we'd have to deal with Canadians
A good deal on a known-good 3.2 is the way to go! More umph is only some headers and a Steve Wong chip away.

yeh but....The Canuck buck is real low right now

I have no idea on the engine, I've also met the owner for a few minutes at a show if I'm thinking of the right guy. So no affiliation.

I have about 18K in my unfinsihed 2.7 (still waiting to be re-assembled while I finish painting the car). The usual stuff, Competition Engineering machining, cams by Daugherty, Weber 40s, re-nikasiled pistons, etc. etc etc.

And I do all my own work, not including machining or cam grinding. It's expensive...

There you go.....
18k in an unfinished motor.
That should scare the whiz out of most sane people.
I'm telling you 911 rebuilds are not for the faint of heart.
Up to you if you believe me or not.
Bring loads of cash....and you better know what you're doing when you're conversing with your engine builder.

Wish you luck.
There really is nothing better than a sweet running Porsche 911 six cylinder engine.

I talked to the guy. Sounds like a reasonable dude, he want's me to look it over first as he has absolutely no history on it at all. Also has some other stuff, but it needs to be sorted.
He doesn't want to sell to a speculator, but he still wants a fair price.

Likely it may take a while, but will let the faithful know. He's going to pop by here over the next few weeks.

Just to add some recent real world experience, here is a copy of the bill for my 2.7 rebuild from the past fall. Notice the cost for cams is not shown. I provided 2.7 RS cams. $13,000 plus cams

Click to view attachment

Prices have gone up without a doubt bearings are almost a grand alone. And gasket sets are not cheap either along pistons and cylinders and you are in for almost 5-6 k. That said if you diy you can build it without taking out a second mortgage.. Wait for the deals just like Mark said be patient and you can still be cost effective.

Good God, a grand for bearings? That's Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous stuff. If nothing else this thread has increased the value of already-converted cars. Or maybe just increased the horror of anyone with a conversion car thinking he's going to be needing a rebuild in the foreseeable future. I know it's definitely increased my affection for my own car.

Bill that looks pretty fair considering all the work they are doing

Curious- What is $1,200 for "big bore"? and $665 for "Bore for oversize oil pressure pistons"?

Also is engine assembly included with that bill?

I'm sure this tread has opened many folks eyes on the cost of building an "reliable " - 6 engine from those that have been there / done that.
Yes, one can wait for deals - I used to do that too.
But as the years roll on, do you want to simply look at your project waiting for that deal when prices keep on going up?
Looking back, I should have bought the 914 6 GT that Seinfeld currently owns when I actually touch and looked it over way way back.
So what my little mind thinking, play within your budget and hopefully a great deal will come up in your lifetime. ..but by then are you still interested and are able to enjoy your / our hobby ?

One huge caveat on this

You really must do your homework and research to do this. Plus have a build plan so you know what to buy.

A 911 engine can be built a thousand ways, so that means there's about ten thousand ways to buy the wrong shit and do things wrong.

This is no Type 4 build, buy the wrong stuff and it will be an expensive mistake that you will get stuck with. A lot of stuff is incompatible with other stuff, you can't just go willy-nilly fly cutting heads, OS bearings are a fortune, you have to know what you are looking for, etc., etc.

The mechanic is Belgian...so some of his terminology gets awkward

Big Bore was recoating/machining the cylinders

The other one was having to machine the oil pressure relief valve(s) cylinders

That cost was all in....including oil change and valve adjustment at 500 miles (done) and another one at 3000 miles (coming up this summer).

Note the Mahle PCs in the previous pics.
10:1 compression & std 2.7L bore. NOS & I got em' for half price.......couldn't have afforded them otherwise. That was about 2007.

A the time, Andial had them listed at 4600 bucks.(approx). As I wrote previously, the inexpensive days are over......but back then, it was worth every nickel. I have no idea what the tab is now.

The 9.7:1 pistons of my tired engine were pretty damn nice for 7 years of running....both street & AX. These sold quick ( A set of 6) for about 700 bucks.

Click to view attachment

2.7's get pricey if you are ditching the cis and need to buy a set of carbs and then have to get them rebuilt. If you just stick with cis your putting a lot of money into a sort of mild hp 6 and might still need to spend $700-1k on the cis injection.

JP,
I've always been impressed with your thoughts and the selection of quality parts that you post for your builds.
I have a few questions regarding the pictures from above.
I noticed that the rods were never touch as in balancing. But I did notice that some rods had a different color to them. Did you gather many sets and got as close as possible to complete a set? Also, I noticed that you don't knife the crank.
Is that another school of thought? I do know that Porsche Motorsports doesn't knife their cranks too.
Keep up with the great work.

Good luck finding deals on a Mahle P&C kit now, good luck finding Malhe performance set period.
Just posting a pic on Pelican got me a $5K offer on my 3.0 set.



I wouldn't knife edge a crank unless you are full race, really not worth it.

Wow what a thread!!! Maybe I should consider a Subaru motor instead?



Reading through all of this, it is my guess that it would be $10-12K for a rebuild of a 2.7/3.0L /6 motor. Plus, I would have to acquire said motor (hopefully in decent shape) for another $10K plus or minus a couple G's. To make it more fun, I would like try to convert it to megasquirt that would only add to the cost. Of course, I would get to sell any unused parts and likely sell my old /4 motor. Note: Although some of you could build your own motor, I just don't have the time or skills to do that. Doing so would definitely help on the $$$$$ side but given my skills the motor would blow up pretty quick. In other words, know your limits and I definitely know mine.

All that being said, this was exploratory for me and the information by members here is outstanding. I think my wallet still says build the 2270 /4 with ITB's, megasquirt and tangerine's boxed header.

The rods (& crank) were right out of a good running engine then reinstalled...in order, of course. The original motor (shortblock) was from a 76 911 (IIRC) it came off a shelf, having been rebuilt about 10 years before .(all history was verbal)....the cost to me was $500. It got torn down and was in decent shape, considering. The rod's histories were unknown, they looked to be factory balanced.....I think the "colors" you see are from the lighting. The crank was stock. The cams Solex were one NOS and one reground by Weber....a couple hundred bucks.....that grind was the cat's ass for AX.

Bought a set of Webers that were sitting on another shelf for 10 years for 800 from a friend for . I rebuilt em'........they were nice and learned to tune em'( no small chore, it took me about 6 months to get em' spot on.) That is worth it's own thread.

I set the revlimiter as high as 7300 but mostly set at 7100......knife edge? why? That combo also makes a great street motor. The stock Porsche balancing is top notch.

You may be reading about a long streak of luck........I'll take it. I took a lot of advise about the builds......from folks I had learned to trust. It didn't happen over night....I originally put a 2.4L in the car, but wanted more power......did a lot of networking with nice guys. I was happy with the outcome.....the engine was happy also.

I sold all my Porsche stuff and bought a 65 FB Mustang...got fed up with that & bought a Miata. My wrenchin' days are over. Nice talkin' to you.

Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment

This is great thread with fantastic info for those wondering where to go. I've learned a ton.

I'm still thinking along the same lines as you (2270/megasquirt) for the same reasons, although that's not exactly "dirt cheap" either. At least you know your limits. I'm not always aware of mine... Good luck whichever way you go.

Yeah, anything around (hopefully to the plus side of these) of 150-160 HP/150-160 ft.lbs torque is going to be a nice jump from a stock 2.0L. Plus, I plan on staying with the narrow body on the chassis although I would have been open to rolling the fenders just a bit if i had to get some bigger tires under there for the additional horsepower that would come with a /6.

Now back to my research on air conditioning systems for my 914....

Nowdays, Subie is the way to go IMO.
MY ex-co-driver bought my race car and went with a JDM Subie along with some engine performance mods. He now has power in abundance. 12inch radial slicks have trouble dealing with it. Such extreme measures are not necessary for "normal" folks.

The cost of that swap are less than half the cost of Porsche power.......and you can get MORE.....the T-4 is a POS and the old 911 motor is obsolete .The biggest problem is transmission. He went with a 930 box with a flipped ring gear......which ain't cheep. He also solved the 914's front suspension
by shitcanning the whole works and going to an Elise set up.

Other trans are an option, but I don't know enough about them.

His car is now killer.
Click to view attachment

That car looks like a track killer. I'm building a street car though for spirited driving and Cars and Coffee. I think the Subie conversions are great, but I am concerned a little about resale value. To be honest, I'm not sure why I am concerned about resale value because I have zero plans of ever selling my 914. I should probably drink more.

Hay, it's just a shitbox

You can buy a good running 911 engine for $10K or less if you look around. You can even buy a rebuilt one for under $15K...just shop.

If you are just looking for more horsepower, torque, lower cost, etc. then there are MANY engine options out there. However, if you want a Porsche 6 (sounds, heritage, etc.), nothing else will do. Only you can answer that question.

Also, there is one thing to keep in mind. A good running 911 engine will hold it's value over any other engine choice out there. Also, a well done 914-6 conversion with a 911 engine will command much more money in resale versus a similar prepared conversion with a Subaru or other engine.

Ho-Kay then .... moving along....

Another rebuild tip, Don't toss that Number 8 bearing If it fits smoothly on the journal and has no rocking, it is likely still within spec.

Two brand new 964 #8 bearing, one from Vertex and I believe the other one was from the Bird were way out of spec in the ID like something outrageous 1mm (.040, maybe only half that, but it was crazy out of spec.).
They may have fixed this issue by now, but I'd check your tolerances very carefully.

I checked my old bearing OD and ID and they were within spec, so I did the DFL treatment on it and reused it.

Turn up the sound


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPEaNcOiLi8

Awesome!!

If you want that Porsche 6 sound, only one engine will do

If you want fast and less expensive subaru or LS1 is probably the ticket. But there is something really awesome about keeping it all in the family. Like a car that Porsche could have built if they wanted to (and I like chevy motors).

As for P&C's you can purchase JE pistons for less than $1k. There was older reports of them being louder (had piston slap, I think?) but the they have them in tolerance now. No problems with them on my rebuild. If your motor has nikasil cylinders you can rebuild them, if you have alusil EBS racing can rebuild and nikasil plate them like new for a reasonable cost.

Ok on cylinders, pretty close, but not 100%, so here's my .02cents

Nikasil
-sometimes you can just wash them with Comet cleaner
-sometimes you can hone them with silicon carbide (SC), this is not really honing, it's more de-glazing
-If you can feel a wave, where a ring ridge would be on a steel cylinder, they need to be replated.
-always check with a bore gauge, they are known to fish-mouth or bell-mouth.
-There are 6 different size groups, so you can't mix and match cylinders willy-nilly.
Replating costs $1100 to $1200
-you can plate nikasil or alusil cylinders, some say the Alusil core is better.
-on a 3.0 the 3.2 cylinder core (no grove) is a slightly better choice .

JE or Mahle pistons (I don't think KS but may be wrong)
JE are sloppy (tolerance) cold, they expand more
Mahle are high tolerance cold

Alusil
-mixed views on reuse,
-special rings,
-Dr Evil was successful rehoning them and knows the process.
-stock alusil pistons only, I believe these are Kolbenschmidt KS.

Yeh...,I've done a shitlaod of research on building certain /6 engines, built many of my own tools, bought wrong shit, bought right shit, spent way too much money....

Some good threads on JE pistons.... I read a lot before I went with them on my rebuild

JE Pistons - Pelican Parts - Wayne at Pelican and Charles Navarro of LN Engineering contributing

JE Longevity

More...

Yep I have nothing against JE's, I have them in my '67 bug

I think somewhere in that mess Charles says that JE's are better in LN nickies and Mahle in OE cylinders, but personally I thought it was just to appease the mahle crowd. There may be slightly longer wear with the Mahle.
I don't want to read that mess again right now.

The only real reason I went with Mahle is I got them for almost the same price as the JE's and they are quality kit. End of story.

The question of value came up earlier in the thread. So as stated, I have 18K in the motor alone, and it's not an insane build by any stretch. I feel - MY OWN PERSONAL OPINION - that a well built 6 in a well executed 914 is a solid car from a value proposition as well as resale. I just repainted my car, and every nut and bolt has been reconditioned to be as new.

I built the 914-6 I feel that Porsche would have built, and my car is a mix of Rebel Racing, Tangerine, PMB, and many other names you all know from here.

I have 42K in my build total, including the price of the car, which I paid $2600 for. I do ALL my own work - that is, I am building the motor, and I painted the car myself. besides machine shop fees, no other outside expenses were incurred.

You could not duplicate my car for 80K if someone else did the work. So I feel that a 914 with a REAL Porsche motor is a solid investment even though I have no intentions of selling - Ever.

And I own 3 other Porsches including a 356B.

Keep it in the family. I have other non-Porsches as well. But my Porsches will always have Porsche motors.

...and for many of us that is a dream we share. But my dream was also just to own a 914. At 31, I consider myself lucky to have accomplished that. And I hope that you won't look down on me for taking a rusted out shell that most would have abandoned, sinking what little disposable income I have into it in the form of a Subaru 6, and at least giving it a second lease on life.

This car is just freakin awesome all around. Love those smooth steel flares too!

I saw your ex- co driver's car while it was being worked on in Buena Park in the LA area. ..you two have killer cars.

When I hear of 5 digit air-cooled 6 rebuilds, I start looking for used 'Metzger' GT2 and GT3 motors on eBay...

Have you looked at the prices of 911 engines on ebay lately?

LOL, GT3 motor. That would cost you 35K minimum. GT2?????/ Unobtainium man....