A friend of mine has a VERY nice car that I've mentioned in the past.

This weekend when I was at school, he brought his car out to work out some of the cobwebs.

I snapped a few shots:

Its a real M471 in original color:

The decals were added to exactly match one of the GT's

The flares are factory, as is the oil cooler, gt shroud, bumpers and hoods, thermostat, etc:

The motor is AMAZING.
Its a 906 motor.
its all done correctly with the original twin plug distributor, 46mm webbers and all:

I haven't checked the color sheets...
don't know the name of the color:

Our local corner workers have a very long standing running gag about pink flamingos:

they seem more interested in plastic flamingos than that amazing car passing them by.

I like that car!

Me too Dan.
Its an inspiration to me.

Carl, If you read this thread I spoke with Dave from this board who is somewhat of a GT expert. Dave is keeping a registry of these cars and was wondering if you'd tell him the VIN #?

That Car is Awesome!!!!!!!! Nice to see it is still out on the track, and he is still having fun with it

Do you have any pics of the motor?

QUOTE (Racing916 @ Mar 21 2005, 02:10 PM)

Do you have any pics of the motor?

I didn't take any this weekend.
but maybe we can get Carl to post a few

QUOTE (brant @ Mar 21 2005, 08:23 PM)

I haven't checked the color sheets... don't know the name of the color:

metallic green/8310

I know VIN and engine number, but won't post it public

it's not a factory M471 / GT, but an early conversion with original parts (likely one of the 400 sport kits)

hardly any info on the history available

engine pics

next

last

I recognize where those pictures were taken....
Inside AJRS

I was in mail contact with Carl and he sent me a couple of pics

btw - what's AJRS

That looks like the same color as my six.

So how did the factory install flairs? Buttweld or lap?

QUOTE (Gustl B @ Mar 21 2005, 02:45 PM)

I was in mail contact with Carl and he sent me a couple of pics btw - what's AJRS

AJRS= Allen Johnsen Racing (Specialties?.. Services?..)

Its AJ's shop.
a one man race shop
specializes in 914's

guy is not even in the phone book
generally has a 1 year wait list to get a motor or large project built.

Also an Extremely fast driver
but so is Carl.
must be something they put in the water up there!

Hi guys,
Thanks for displaying my car Brant, you are a great friend.
Well decided to join in , always willing to help 914 lovers specially 6ers and extra especially racers. Brant let me know who is interested in the vin # will be willing to help privately at my email. As long as he promises to send me any info on GT stuff or cars that come on the market.
best wishes to all.

Hey Carl! welcome to the club! glad to see you post here, don't be a stranger.
Ferg.

Very nice car Carl! Would love to see it someday.

Wish I would have been aware of the track day. I am assuming that that is 2nd Creek? Looks like there was a nice mix of cars. I'm disappointed I missed it. Would have liked to see you again too Brant, it's been almost a year, and I've only met you the one time at Gmund.

Can't wait to see your machine on the track.

Quote: It's a real M471 in original color.

Quote: It's not a factory M471 / GT, but an early conversion with original parts (likely one of the 400 sport kits)

Reply: I love the car but only factory delivered M471 914-6's would be considered "real M471" cars. Whether it was made from one of the 400 kits back in 1971 or made yesterday with AA flairs doesn't make it a "Real M471". But I still love the car. Thanks for the pictures and the story behind the car.

QUOTE (smg914 @ Mar 22 2005, 07:00 AM)

Reply: I love the car but only factory delivered M471 914-6's would be considered "real M471" cars. Whether it was made from one of the 400 kits back in 1971 or made yesterday with AA flairs doesn't make it a "Real M471".  But I still love the car. Thanks for the pictures and the story behind the car.

in general I agree, but how would you call this car:
1970 914-6, signal orange
1973 back to Stuttgart, converted to a M471 at the factory and painted blue

the 916 front/back, mirrors, cookie cutters and interior were added/changed somewhen later ...

hi Gustl,


is this the car, which has been offered on the 914-sport-ig website and is located in or near by Innsbruck ?

Vin would be 9140430394 in this case ...


greetings from Berlin


Benno

Hi Benno,
absolutely correct, it's the "Otto Mathé 914-6"
after Otto Mathé died, a guy from Oetztal-Bahnhof (about 50 km to Innsbruck, in the west) purchaced it, the pics are taken at his place (not from me) - the new owner kept it stored for about 3 years, then advertised it "everywhere" - unfortunately hardly anybody outside Tirol knew Otto Mathé (a famous race driver from Innsbruck)

in 2003 (maybe 2002?) a guy from the Vienna area bought the car with the intention to restore it

maybe I should try to contact him to see the current state

tyrolean greetings,
Gustl

Good morning,
Great car, nice to see cars like that resurface.
I am one to like rescueing those cars, original or not, if it is done well and on a 914-6 chassis with steel flares and some correctness to it, they make great cars, and lots of fun to drive/race. keep us posted.

QUOTE (Gustl B @ Mar 22 2005, 12:16 AM)

QUOTE (smg914 @ Mar 22 2005, 07:00 AM) Reply: I love the car but only factory delivered M471 914-6's would be considered "real M471" cars. Whether it was made from one of the 400 kits back in 1971 or made yesterday with AA flairs doesn't make it a "Real M471".  But I still love the car. Thanks for the pictures and the story behind the car. in general I agree, but how would you call this car: 1970 914-6, signal orange 1973 back to Stuttgart, converted to a M471 at the factory and painted blue the 916 front/back, mirrors, cookie cutters and interior were added/changed somewhen later ...

It makes for another good discussion. Remember the 914-6 that was supposably sent back to Germany (factory?) in the 80's and using leftover parts they made a 916 out of it. Does this car immediately become the 12th 916? In my opinion this car is unique and special but not in the same category as the other 11 916's. In fact I might go as far to say it's a replica that just happened to be made by the factory or across the street from the factory or however the story goes. And as far as this beautiful green 914-6 with the "dealer installed M471 kit" I think if there were sufficient documentation showing the receipt for the purchase of the M471 kit in 1971 and the receipt and maybe pictures of installation in 1971 then I would call this car unique and special but still not in the same category as the cars on the infamous list from Porsche.

Your thoughts are welcome!

The 'new' 916 is hardly any different than the original prototype 916. Perhaps one could say a 3rd class 916, but at least a factory car in some sense. Better in some ways than a non-factory 916 anyway. It certainly makes my research interesting. One would think the research over the past 30 years should be easy. It seems though that noboby cared to keep records.

DaveP

"Original" and "modified at the factory" are close but not the same.

Steve, I'm with you. Only those that left the factory the first time should be considered original.

Quote: In general I agree, but how would you call this car:
1970 914-6, signal orange, 1973 back to Stuttgart, converted to a M471 at the factory and painted blue the 916 front/back, mirrors, cookie cutters and interior were added/changed somewhen later ...

I forgot to reply to this quote.
Once again a unique and special car but still not in the same category as the cars listed on the infamous list from Porsche. As Paul said, "Original or modified at the factory are close but not the same". It's just a little more prestigious having it "modified" years later at Stuttgart than having it "modified" at your local Porsche dealer or your favorite local body shop. Bottom line, "It's a replica".

Now some replicas are worth more than other replicas.... depending on what parts were used and who did the work.

Steve

A little more cache, but still replicas. Very similar to the Shelby new series.

QUOTE (9146gtracer @ Mar 21 2005, 07:23 PM)

Hi guys, Thanks for displaying my car Brant, you are a great friend. Well decided to join in , always willing to help 914 lovers specially 6ers and extra especially racers. Brant let me know who is interested in the vin # will be willing to help privately at my email. As long as he promises to send me any info on GT stuff or cars that come on the market. best wishes to all.

Carl,

That is VERY kind of you. You have no Idea how much help you have been to me.

also thanks for hauling those tires for me
and thanks for all the continuous advice

Carl, Sophia is great and it was very nice to meet her. Congrats!!!!

Ben, It was vintage school at the track this weekend.
pretty low key really.

Interesting turn that this thread has taken guys. But you would have to see this car to fully understand how well it is done. Its amazing. Carl, really knows his stuff and is a real asset to this group. I think he is down to 2 914/6's right now since he sold the other 2 over the last couple of years. I guess I'm just glad to see him here and know that he is a wonderful reference for authenticity type questions and discussions.

Paul and Dave..... Keeping it on the Porsche theme, have you seen some of the prices on the 911 RGruppe replica cars? Like you said if it's done right using the right parts, these kinds of cars bring a lot of money. Although they don't come close to approaching the value of an "Original" 911R', RS or RSR. I guess the three 914 replicas we've been discussing have a similar fate.

Wow, three people that agree on something....

The 911 replicas are a good example.
Somewhat like the 917's that have been built out of spare parts over the years.
Original parts, yes. Original cars, no.

there are some interesting points, mostly I agree, but I'm still not so sure about my own point

I mean ... if you won't call a later converted car original, then you say that for example the world famous Sonauto #40 Le Mans winner isn't an original car. This one was converted to a GT from Sonauto, the french Porsche importer ...

I have no idea how to decide what should be considered as original M471 / GT or not
anyway ... always an interesting topic

may we see some pictures of carl's engine?

k

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Mar 22 2005, 11:48 AM)

may we see some pictures of carl's engine? k

The pictures put up by gustl, are of carl's engine.
Its the twin plug 2.0/6 (906) motor.

QUOTE (brant @ Mar 22 2005, 10:56 AM)

QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Mar 22 2005, 11:48 AM) may we see some pictures of carl's engine? k The pictures put up by gustl, are of carl's engine. Its the twin plug 2.0/6 (906) motor.

That engine is a thing of beauty!

QUOTE (Gustl B @ Mar 22 2005, 10:37 AM)

there are some interesting points, mostly I agree, but I'm still not so sure about my own point  :wacko: I mean ... if you won't call a later converted car original, then you say that for example the world famous Sonauto #40 Le Mans winner isn't an original car. This one was converted to a GT from Sonauto, the french Porsche importer ... I have no idea how to decide what should be considered as original M471 / GT or not  :confused: anyway ... always an interesting topic  ;)

914-6 GT:
Because cars like the Sonauto GT and some of the Max Moritz GT's and others have such a significant race history from that period they've become an important part of the legend of the 914-6 GT. Today, 914's that have a significant race history from the '70's (12 Hours of Sebring, 24 Hours of Daytona, 24 Hours of Le Mans) are sought after and bring a premium whether it was an original GT or a replica.

914-6 M471:
In my opinion, a replica 914-6 M471 (Street GT) that is in the same overall condition as a completely stock 914-6 is not worth any more money. In fact, because its been modified, it may even hurt it's value. Just to clarify something.....I'm speaking for the anal/purests like myself who are willing to pay top dollar for only the best factory original cars.

PS; It's hard to be me because being an anal purest makes life very difficult.

Steve I understand your point. I mean the part about it being hard to be you. I'd rather be me.

QUOTE (Gustl B @ Mar 21 2005, 04:39 PM)

engine pics

am i seeing *1* pressure-fed tensioner ? ( R )
what's the story on that ?

I see 2.....or at least the fitting on the cam feed line on the left.
Lousy pic again, Andy?

I really like it when people go to the expense and trouble to
make something 'period', like all the way. I mean, there's
enough 914's around that it's fine for people to make them
modern and/or individual and/or better, but for people who
maybe won't be in a museum, you ain't gonna see old stuff
as it was built or raced.

QUOTE (J P Stein @ Mar 22 2005, 05:12 PM)

I see 2.....or at least the fitting on the cam feed line on the left.

okay - if it's this one, i can sorta see it. been a while since i've seen pressure-fed tensioners in a built engine - if ever. seems a long way to go, bringing it all the way over from the cam tower fitting, but WTFDIK ...

donno why you'd run pressure-fed tensioners on a 906 engine; the pressure-fed tensioner failure mode seems sto be at sustained high-speed operation. but it's not my engine...

I thought 906 engines were mechanically injected. Maybe it was only some of them.

Michel

QUOTE (michel richard @ Mar 22 2005, 08:43 PM)

I thought 906 engines were mechanically injected. Maybe it was only some of them.

...with the ultra-rare single-row injection pump.

but the engine used in the 914.6/GT's was *basically* a 906 engine with Webers, so it's not far off authentic for the car. MFI is a PITA is a 914. (it can be done, it has been done. in a racing class where they're serious about firewall integrity, it's a PITA ...)

Not trying to speak for Carl.
but yep.. they ran 46 webbers on the Lemans cars.

Carl told me last weekend that they had dyno'd his motor and thought they were giving up a bunch of power and torque running the 46's instead of 40's at colorado altitude, but he went that direction because it was factory correct.