I think I found the source of my oil leak on the /6. I dried the case real well yesterday and can only find it leaking from the bolt in the picture.

Since I know nothing about flat 6's (other than they are fun in a 914) what is that bolt? The nut was loose but doesn't tighten up without the stud turning. I assume it is a through bolt since oil leaks from it.

Thanks in advance!

Click to view attachment

The stud is pulling the threads out very common, ....
there is a thread about making it stop leaking , but just trying to tighten it is / or could be really bad...


With the amount of threads showing, sometimes you can double nut it and get 4 or 5 more turns on the stud into the case , but still wont take factory torque ,but will help seal with some added goo in the bore under the washer and retighten with care
10ftpds maybe..or less

Yup bad if pulled out as it penetrates into the crankcase.. Lots of oil will come out of there..

Here the thread;
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=243871

Thanks Jeff - I was hoping you would see this (almost sent it to you directly).

or it has a helicoil,casesave,timesert, and is just loose ....I doubt it...

The previous owner rebuilt the motor and time-certed the head studs as they were a known issue. Probably didn't think about the case...

"Motor- The motor was totally rebuilt during the restoration. New pistons and cylinders and bushings. Cylinder heads were rebuilt professionally by John Truman Racing of Ohio. The crankcase case was time-certed to avoid any chance of pulled cylinder head studs. The fuel injection system came from a 1976 Porsche 911S that was wrecked when it had been driven only 1600 miles. New fuel pump, rebuilt alternator with integral voltage regulator. Porsche 914/6 exhaust hear exchangers and muffler. New pressurized hydraulic chain tensioners were used. "

A 2.7 achilles heel.
The number of threads showing says the damage is already done.
The threads on the other half of the case are already pulled.
I recall that there is a method to repair it without having to split the case.
It will involve removing the exhaust (and probably more) then the long stud and installing a helicoil. Kinda like robotic surgery.
I'm sure there is a thread online or it may be in the Anderson or Dempsey manuals.

If you can not torque it, it will be difficult.

The mag cases are really soft.

like I said there is enough exposed threads if it threads in, that it will seal ,or just glue it in, the captain had some long helicoil tools , but for this try everything else..

ive done it another way but,,its extreme..easy but...

every mag case needs this timeserted for insurance..

Don't even try and torque it ..try and remove the nut ..if that happens you may have a chance of picking up a few more good threads by double nutting it, to hold the goo seal in stud/nut/washer/ band aid...

I read he already torqued it and the stud turned.

It's the infamous layshaft stud...it's not a thru bolt...see the pic it will make more sense....
it is notorious for pulling out in mag cases.
I have seen a few articles that some have repaired in the car...via coils etc...
check on the pelican and 911 registry for this...
My repair was to split the case as the engine needed other things done anyway.


Click to view attachment

I did put a wrench on it - the nut turned. As soon as I saw the stud start to move I stopped.

This engine has less than 2000 miles on it since a rebuild....

Ouch



Mike asked me about the 5-minute epoxy trick so I'll post my answer here as well in the quote below.
Be fully aware this is a temporary fix.




Anyone rebuilding a mag case should timesert this area as just a normal part of the job, even if you have good threads.
Even a helicoil, as the VW type one mag cases produced for the bus engine bar, had helicoiled threads in the bar mount holes.

Thanks Mark!
sure are a lot of Loctite Hysol products: http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywo...sl_2xgn33fdmo_e

All these ideas are good, but if you just dont want it to leak, remove the nut, clean the area with brake cleaner and apply Hondabond(this shit seals anything!!!)to the area and put the nut back on. It will not leak anymore.

Thanks - I have seen Honda Bond mentioned in forums before.

I wonder which one? There are a few.

08718-0001 (Hondabond HT 08718-0004)

08718-0002 (Hondabond HT1216F 08718-0012)

08718-0009 Honda Ultra Flange 2

08718-0001 (Hondabond HT 08718-0004) or 08718-0002 (Hondabond HT1216F 08718-0012)

08718-0001 (Hondabond HT 08718-0004) or 08718-0003 (Honda Ultra Flange)

08718-0001 (Hondabond HT 08718-0004) or 08718-0002 (Hondabond HT1216F 08718-0012), 08718-0009 (Honda Ultra Flange 2)

08718-0001 (Hondabond HT 08718-0004), 08718-0001 (Hondabond HT 0878-0004), 08718-0003 (Honda Ultra Flange), 08718-0009 (Honda Ultra Flange 2)

08717-0004 Hondabond 4 Silicone Gasket (Hondabond 4 Semi Drying Sealant 08717-1194), 08718-0003 (Honda Ultra Flange), 08718-0009 (Honda Ultra Flange 2)

08717-0004 Hondabond 4 Silicone Gasket (Hondabond 4 Semi Drying Sealant 08717-1194), 08718-0001 (Hondabond HT 08718-0004), 08718-0002 (Hondabond HT1216F 08718-0012), 08718-0003 (Honda Ultra Flange), or 08718-0009 (Honda Ultra Flange 2)

08717-0004 Hondabond 4 Silicone Gasket (Hondabond 4 Semi Drying Sealant 08717-1194), 08718-0001 (Hondabond HT 08718-0004), 08718-0012 (Hondabond HT1216F), 08718-0003 (Honda Ultra Flange), 08718-0009 (Honda Ultra Flange 2)

I've also used JB-Weld (24-hr), but Marine-Tex is very good. I had a hole in my
mag case where the f'in chain cut right through, before I owned it. I didn't know it
was a hole since the previous glue blended in, but was failing.
I chipped off the old stuff, used brake cleaner and wire brush, put the Marine-tex on
there, with some wax paper over it to keep it from sagging, and a light bulb for
better temperature. No more leak.

Click to view attachment
Header has to come off.

Click to view attachment
Note oil supply hole in LH case.

Click to view attachment
Oil pressure is distributed to the bearing by the groove in the jackshaft.
2mm away from the pulled stud,not good.The loss of clamping pressure allows the bore to become larger and out of round.
Even 0.002"/0.05mm is too much,for the magnesium bore of the bearing.

Stripped Stud
http://www.amazon.com/J-B-Weld-8265S-Origi...d/dp/B0006O1ICE

A cheap way to make a repair to a pulled stud in a magnesium block.
Loosen or remove exhaust headers from the right side of the engine.
Bring engine to operating temperature,drain the hot oil,lift LH side of car on floorjacks and and block up,to allow the cleaners to drain from the hole.
Remove header,the rusted nuts and bolts loosened with a penetrating mix of acetone/trans fluid,50/50.
Remove pulled stud by reversing out,and spray brake cleaner solvent into stud hole,cleaning out oils and debris,use a 1/8" air nozzle that fits into bottom of hole.
Using long nozzle,clean out bottom of hole thoroughly with supersolvent 'Gunk brand brake cleaner'.Clean stud ends of material and oil with solvents and brush,spotless.
Try the stud back into it's hole,should find it's groove,being cleaned out,ensure the stud fits to bottom of hole,the exposed portion the nut's height.
Remove the stud and cleanout again,you may now lift the RH side of car higher than LH side.Mix 'JB Weld epoxy steel'or 500F equivilant.
Insert a 1/8" application tube to the bottom of the hole,filling halfway,then insert and screw the warm,clean stud in to the correct height.
Use a syringe with gradations marked in cc's to dispense the proper volume of epoxy into the bottom of the hole.
Do not overfill the hole,only enough volume to occupy the drilled and tapped hole in the case minus the stud,a perfect amount.
Test for the correct amount on a scrap piece,too much will cause the epoxy to adhere to the right side case,which is bad.
Allow to cure 24+ hours,the warm temp of the block maintained by heater or lamp,the warmer the faster the cure.
Add nut and silicone sealer and torque to 20 Ft-Lbs (80%) of factory load.Reinstall headers and refill oil,run and allow to cool,re-torquing to 100%.
The local temp of the stud's hole is the reason to use a high temp epoxy,the stud needed to maintain a round hole for the jackshaft's plain bearing.
The correct way is engine removal,splitting and timeserting the stud hole,and while you're in there maintenance costs.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=2.7L+Porsche...IBigA&dpr=2
https://www.google.ca/search?q=2.7L+Porsche...ine+case+repair

It sucks,but the careful application of modern adhesives can make the avoidance of a blown engine possible.

/
More...
http://www.aremco.com/high-performance-epoxies/
http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=6276
http://www.cotronics.com/vo/cotr/rm_putties.htm
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome...0metal%20filled

This is good stuff,the selection based on service conditions.
/

Thank you for the detailed write-up!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCt--lSCudc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMj24XghnVQ



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5tsOCeCplE

At 3:27 he refers "also" to the long stud that(usually) pulls.

Further,
As you wish to determine if the 'gap'has been widened,and filled with debris and varnish,pull the inspection plate to gain access to the boss directly.
Do give it a shot of cleaning solvent/brake cleaner and a blast of air,then try a 0.002" steel feeler guage,avoid getting the shim stuck.
Use more brake cleaner until the correct feeler passes smoothly,cleaning the internal mating surfaces,then install the epoxy and stud.
Try the gap after torqueing to 80%,should be closed,ensuring the jackshaft and cam drive sprocket journal run the proper clearances.
A while you're in there inspection by way of a recording borescope can give a good assessment of the condition of the engine.
Searching for wear on sliding surfaces,sprockets and gears and rod bearings,in addition if desired,a cam cover can be pulled to inspect.

https://www.youtube.com/user/motormeister/videos
Some good fliks,particularly the wear and failure modes.
Into the guts of it.

/

Ahhhhhh Motormeister Ahhhhhhh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7cOSqKN-0A


Well,sadly and obviously the talent and knowledge has been turned to the darkside of business practice,gouging and ripping for profit.
Too bad,the eventual result will be the karmic balance of the world,a meeting of a non-suckerfish of 'vicious temperament',a shark,like.
What a waste,the practices they used in the past repeated,the naivety of the next walk in exploited,the old phrase comes to mind,
PT Barnum's "There's a sucker born every minute".There have been a few such outfits,and a few more will pop up in the future too.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=224911
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=275793
https://www.google.ca/webhp?sourceid=chrome...%20motormeister
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911...meister-60.html
http://www.yelp.com/biz/german-auto-los-alamitos

Anyways,the fliks about the 2.7L was right on,all the salient points he made accurate and typical.
So,you want to repair the damaged engine without making the split,you will have to become inventive.
A point he made about the rocker shafts moving after becoming loose is one that is a simple fix,though time consuming.
The cam covers,pulled for cam and valve clearance inspection is a least invasive job,telling of head condition.
This is a 'While you're in there'task,and fairly cheap to do,reassuring when all is well.
A detailed measure of the engine should be done regarding the known life it's had,the last re n re,standard maintenance jobs etc.
Pulling the plugs to scope around inside the bores and heads will give a good signal if any scoring or burnt exhaust valves are present.
A worn engine will show itself in poor valve guides and beaten seats,heavily carboned exhaust ports and blue smoke.
A thorough compression and leakdown test will give an overall assessment of the engine's condition.
A conrod hole is usually the payoff if the fettling is absent,a high maintenance engine.
Do get an engine exhaust analyzer sniff test to measure the stink of the tailpipe,a 21st century mass spectrometer picture of the oils and gasses output.

/

What, is this an MM motor?

--DD

Dave,
If you are asking if my motor is a MM motor it is not. It was built in Denver by the previous owner.

08718-0001 (Hondabond HT 08718-0004)
Its a black white and red tube and it says Hondabond HT on it. I used this stuff on the thru bolt for the oil sump on a type 4. The bolt was stripped and the case was cracked. Hondabond sealed the leak. This was back in 2002 and I am still driving this engine.

Thanks I have some ordered!

Hondabond HT 08718-0004
Genuine Hondabond hi-temp silicone liquid gasket. Remember to clean the part / bolt thoroughly before applying liquid gasket. Apply it as thinly and evenly as possible using a brush or putty knife. This really matters, it can make the difference between the sealant working or not working. If you do a nice neat job, it will seal and last. Wait one minute after applying the liquid gasket, then join the two surfaces.
•For use in areas not requiring solid gaskets such as cylinder head covers
•Unique non-acidic formula.
•Dries quickly, remains flexible, resists vibration.
•Resists oil, water and most chemicals.
•Effective from 75 degrees F to 600 degrees F
•1.9 fl. oz. container with stepped nozzle to help apply.

black permatex
OEM specified. For dealership warranty requirements, Ultra Black® ensures extended drivetrain warranty compliance. Fast-curing formula. Sensor-safe, low odor, noncorrosive. Meets performance specs of OE silicone gaskets. Retains high flexibility, oil resistant properties through use of a patented adhesion system. Temperature range -65°F to 500°F (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids and vibration. - See more at: https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing...h.UaCFI48l.dpuf

apples/apples the permatex does mention oil resistant properties...

goo/goo poo/poo ???/???



and then there is Dirko

Click to view attachment

Oil pump drive,cam chain shaft bearing,a heart of the engine place to suffer a failure.
A pulled stud from normal expansion or overtorquing has the same result.
Kaboom!
Bandaid and coathanger fixes are ok in a pinch,and used here in the saltlands regularly.
A thorough checkup is desired after a discovered damaged case,the headstuds probably yanked and wanked.
(I see the solid inserts were installed,previously,which is good)
Delicate,close tolerance engines,intolerant of abuse and neglect.

The docs and the mechanics have the same motto"You can pay me now or later".
Later,more involved,the idea of a flat six about to grenade is more common than you might surmise.
A small hiccup in the timing chain's drive could cause a tappity-tap event on the pistons,making smoke signals and an oily mess.

/

your right , this band aid has been done since 1968 , the first mag case . hot climates make it worse, daily driving , big problem , occasional driver , no biggy .. that bearing is not as stressed as you think......that bearing is worn out of round down to the copper all the time..as long as some amount of torque can be achieved its doing the job good enough....or loan him the $5-15k to fix it right...
If the BandAid is applied carefully it will last. and will heal the drip on his floor , witch is actually the nuisance



BTW the case you show has No bearings, aluminum...ive seen the big end wallowed out a few times ...weld up, rebore for bearing inserts..



Where Slits when you need a

Click to view attachment

A silicone sealant to plug the 'hole in the dike',so to speak,covering the result,not repairing the cause.
A similar amount of work to effect an actual repair is what I have suggested.The stud in his picture,pulled beyond 6mm.
Again,the magnesium case threads,when being pulled will cause a 'riser ridge'around the stud's hole,wedging open the case gap.
The epoxied stud routine is normal practice for many years on many builds,to avoid the damage to the soft material.
Done properly,the longstud epoxy repair will exceed the clamping force of the threaded hole alone.
Preparation and cleaning the most important tasks to make the repair work,the closing of the gap that allows oil pressure to leak into the stud hole.
Have fun.

Don't sniff any glue,bad for you.
/

never said to plugit with cone.. I am curious how many real life experiences you've had with this exact topic ??


you got the last hooorah...the end....

Click to view attachment
Dimension H.

Click to view attachment
The horror.You did what with the case?Drilled a hole?Aahh.The horror.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/Porsche-911-Block-..._1474581/i.html

Ok,so,you want to 'save' the mag case,and have pulled out the threads,why use the latest,greatest metal filled epoxy to make a new 'boss'.
Gaining access to the LH side of the case means dropping the headers,to prepare the surface to receive the 'peanut butter' epoxy putty.
Fill the cavity to the level that clears the hard steel washer for the stud's nut.Allow to cure,add moderate heat to speed the process.
Now,drill thru the LH case half and the hardened epoxy filler from the RH side of the cases,with a long drill,7-8mm dia.
Now,spotface the epoxy/magnesium surface to prepare a seat for the hard washer to distribute the load.
Insert the long stud,steel washers both ends and tighten the nuts to spec,checking that the 'gap' is closed,the bearing crush correct.
This repair scenario is a last ditch effort,to prevent damage resulting from a smoked bearing and catastrophic failure.
Someone posted above about the use of JB product,note that there is a difference among the epoxies they market,not all the same.
Don't even consider the 5min mixes,the amines produced will greatly affect adhesion to the cleaned roughened magnesium surface of the casting.
3000 psi compression strength mix is what you want to make block repairs or modifications,the gourmet epoxy.
Careful with that drill.

PS,The magnesium casting has an uncanny ability to soak up oil,much like a sponge,the porosity the factor.
Cleaning the bonding surface is crucial,the super dissolving brake cleaner the most effective.
/

been there done that ...with out your over complicated method...
you are not breaking new ground...find flight 370

the real end



the Captain had the extended tools to do a helicoil from the open side ...

Click to view attachment
The thrubolt method,M8.

Click to view attachment
http://www.noblefix.com/helicoil/HeliCoil-Tapping-Chart.html

https://www.google.ca/search?q=hss+drill+ro...i_IUA4Ia07TM%3A
https://www.google.ca/search?q=thread+repai...cVaBNoQ_AUIBygC

The right way,or,a way that worked,courtesy of a certain Krusty.
Drill out the RH case's 8.2mm hole to 10.2mm to clear the Helicoil or TimeSert.
Using the kit from Helicoil,make extensions to the drill,tap and driver tools.
This means tig welding the STI tapdrill to a 5/16" dia x 4"L drill rod.
Weld another length of drillrod to the STI M8-1.25 tap,3/8" dia x 5"L,grind flats on the end of the drillrod.
Pre-drill M10.2 for STI tap clearance,the RH side of the case thru to the parting line of the cases,do not drill deeper.
You're working within the space between the case and the head,so you will have to drill the RH case's stud hole larger,10.2mm dia,
in stages using progressively longer drill bits,inserting the drill,then attaching the right-angle drill.
Using the welded,extended tapdrill,drill the LH case to a 3X depth,25-30mm 1"-1.2",clearing swarf,use kerosene to lube.
Cleanout with brake cleaner and long 1/8" air nozzle,ensure no chips remains in the hole.
The STI M8-1.25 tap will clear the predrilled M10 hole by .008" 0.2mm,using kerosene,begin tapping the LH case.
Cleanout and apply air,ensuring no swarf remains in the hole,visually.
Having removed the inspection plate,determine there are no chips or raised edge on the gap's mating surface,cleaning.
Install the stainless steel M8-1.25-3x helicoil with the extended tool.
A standard or a custom length M8 stud can now be installed,Loctite recommended for the bottom.
As the stud clearance hole is now 10mm (2mm larger),a spotface should be made on the RH case boss to seat the washer.
A bushing or custom washer is needed for the nut's seat,to fit into the enlarged RH case hole,M10,a lick of sealer,too.
Torque to spec,25Ft-Lbs,then again after cooling from a heat cycle.
Check the gap,that it is indeed closed,the repair effective.
The correct attention to detail and care can get the job done,do not break the drill,taps or driver downhole.
/
There you have it,the right way,or another way to cinch the 0.002" gap closed,thereby avoiding any bearing wear and nuisance oil drips.
A search for a reference of this type of repair returned no results,tho I vaguely recall an Anderson or other mention of the technique.
Somewhat more invasive than adding a few drops of modern epoxy down hole and works as well.
Those beat up bearing shells or journals look like that because the hp to drive the oil pump and cams is a substantial number.
Loss of clamping pressure allows the oil to escape out the 2-3x enlarged clearance and reduces the oil film thickness at the journal.
A rod bearing that looks worn down to copper has the same cause,contact through the reduced oil cushion and resultant abrasion wear.
Three ways to solve the gap and drip,all done in the car on a hoist.

/

Veek, Thanks for that. It perfectly describes the method I had envisioned.

It is also the most concisely worded post I have ever see you make!! Not meant as derogatory, I enjoy trying to dechipher your sometimes obtuse posts.

In my vast experience (one tear-down/rebuild), I found all of the bearings in my old T motor of unknown history pretty pristine - except for the pump shaft bearing. That one showed considerable wear. And most of the case stud threads were sound, except the one in question. For whatever reason, that bearing/stud see's some fairly high stress.

If it's sillycone RTV based, (BTW Dirko is RTV) it won't last for this app that is why I suggested a epoxy based product.

Likely one could make a make a extended helicoil or timesert tap.
One warning if you do a helicoil and mess up then a regular timesert will no longer fit, you would have to use a bigsert.

true if the studs case threads has zero holding capacity,

then one could use LOCTITE PC 3967 Stripped Thread Repair Kit

to obtain some torque capacity..