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Groosh
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Oct 22 2016, 08:09 AM) *

Ok, I'm very glad that you did this test. First, we must rule out the simple, do you have fuel? What is the fuel pressure at the fuel rail?

A few tests ago you measured 12 volts from pins 14,15,32 and 33 to battery ground. This test proves that you have continuity from the ECU connector thru the wiring harness, the fuel injector itself has continuity, the wiring harness to the dropping resistors has continuity, and finally, the harness to the dual relay has continuity. All of this is a very good thing.

Even though each fuel injector show's continuity, this does not prove that they will work. Mechanically, these injectors could be seized or plugged full of stromberg.gif . Let's do one more test just to prove that these injectors are working electrically.

These injectors are low impedance, I'm pretty sure they are around 2.5 ohms (correct me if I'm wrong). You also have a 6 ohm dropping resistor in series of each fuel injector (resistor pack). Using a simple equation I=E/R, we can solve for current on each injector circuit. Total resistance is around 8.5 ohms, voltage is 13, so we should see something around 1.5 amps.

Many meters will measure amperage's for DC circuits. The meter will usually have something that will say DC A, and they typically measure up to 10 amps. Make sure you don't have your meter set to DC milliamps, as this will blow the meter's internal fuse. Make sure the red meter lead is plugged into the correct port on the meter, DC amp setting usually has its own port.

Now, same test as before. Remove the power wire from the ignition coil, set the ignition switch to on, temporarily deflect the air flow meter flap or jump pin 88d at the dual relay to the positive battery post. Next, insert the red meter lead into socket 14 of the ECU connector, while the black meter lead is touching the negative battery post. You should hear a click at the fuel injector, should also see fuel spraying too. As all of this is going on, observe what your meter is saying, should be somewhere of 1.5 amps.

Repeat this for pins 15, 32 and 33.

If you are seeing 1.5 amps at each injector, and you have verified fuel pressure at the fuel rail, then you send off your injectors to WitchHunters for cleaning.


There is a fuel pressure meter on the rail. It reads about 50 psi but I have no idea if it is accurate. It does go up and down but I have never seen it settle at zero.

I tested all the injectors as described and they all fire a beautiful stream of fuel with about 1.5 amps on the meter set to DC A 10A.

timothy_nd28
Cool, not sure what your issue was with the previous test. Button the injectors back up and verify you still have spark. Try starting the car
Groosh
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Oct 22 2016, 02:18 PM) *

Cool, not sure what your issue was with the previous test. Button the injectors back up and verify you still have spark. Try starting the car


I think we are missing something. The injectors do not fire when plugged into the ECU. They only fire when we jumped them. Could my ECU be bad? I tried pulling an injector and no fuel comes out when everything is put together. Additionally, I don't think I have spark anymore. The car did run on starter fluid in the being. But now it doesn't and looking for spark from a pulled plug reveals no spark.
timothy_nd28
The ECU uses the spark signal to fire the injectors. When doing the previous tests, I had you remove the power wire off the ignition coil. This was done to protect either your ignition points or your pointless module. It's bad to leave the ignition on with the car not running, as it will ruin the points.

We need to address your no spark condition. Do you have mechanical points inside the distributor or is it a electronic module?
Groosh
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Oct 23 2016, 10:34 AM) *

The ECU uses the spark signal to fire the injectors. When doing the previous tests, I had you remove the power wire off the ignition coil. This was done to protect either your ignition points or your pointless module. It's bad to leave the ignition on with the car not running, as it will ruin the points.

We need to address your no spark condition. Do you have mechanical points inside the distributor or is it a electronic module?


I love how much you know Tim! The points are mechanical.
timothy_nd28
Verify you do have 12 volts present at the positive terminal of the ignition coil when the ignition switch is set to on. Measure this by probing the + terminal of the ignition coil and probing the negative battery post
Groosh
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Oct 23 2016, 10:39 AM) *

Verify you do have 12 volts present at the positive terminal of the ignition coil when the ignition switch is set to on. Measure this by probing the + terminal of the ignition coil and probing the negative battery post

We have 12 volts at the coil.
timothy_nd28
Remove the distributor cap and rotor, and manually spring open the points while trying to take a picture. Post the picture if you can, I'm wondering if the points are burnt
Groosh
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Oct 23 2016, 10:47 AM) *

Remove the distributor cap and rotor, and manually spring open the points while trying to take a picture. Post the picture if you can, I'm wondering if the points are burnt

timothy_nd28
Yah, time to replace them.
Groosh
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Oct 23 2016, 01:11 PM) *

Yah, time to replace them.

Happened to have a set at home. So I replaced and set the gap. I tried turning it over but still no love.
timothy_nd28
On the ignition coil, you should have 3 wires on the negative terminal and one wire on the positive terminal. After confirming that, remove all wires from the ignition coil and check the resistance between the positive and negative terminal of the ignition coil. Next, leave one meter lead probed to the negative terminal and probe the other meter lead to the spark plug socket of the ignition coil.
Groosh
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Oct 23 2016, 04:12 PM) *

On the ignition coil, you should have 3 wires on the negative terminal and one wire on the positive terminal. After confirming that, remove all wires from the ignition coil and check the resistance between the positive and negative terminal of the ignition coil. Next, leave one meter lead probed to the negative terminal and probe the other meter lead to the spark plug socket of the ignition coil.


Yes, three wires on the negative. The postive has two wires tied together on it.

Probed the coil negative and positive and got 0 ohms resistance.

Probed the negative and positive at the spark plug socket and got 100 ohms resistance with meter set at RX100.
timothy_nd28
Just to make sure, did you pull all the wires off before testing? Positive to negative terminals should be around 4 ohms. Spark plug terminal to either terminal should be around 10,000 ohms.
Groosh
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Oct 24 2016, 02:58 PM) *

Just to make sure, did you pull all the wires off before testing? Positive to negative terminals should be around 4 ohms. Spark plug terminal to either terminal should be around 10,000 ohms.


Yes, the wires were pulled. However I retested. This time I used a digital meter and found 4 ohms and about 9,470 ohms from the spark plug terminal.
timothy_nd28
That indicates that the coil is good. So, you have 12 volts on the + ignition coil terminal when the key is on, and a new set of points, but no spark.

Sounds like a grounding issue. Check the transmission ground strap
timothy_nd28
After checking the ground strap, take your voltmeter and check the resistance between the negative battery post and the thing I have circled in red, you should have 0 ohms

Click to view attachment
Groosh
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Oct 24 2016, 08:55 PM) *

After checking the ground strap, take your voltmeter and check the resistance between the negative battery post and the thing I have circled in red, you should have 0 ohms

Click to view attachment

The ground strap from tranny to car looks good. Quite clean. There is also an extra ground cable from the negative battery terminal to the transmission.

The volt meter at the points think circled in red reads 0 ohms.
timothy_nd28
Reattach wires to the ignition coil. Turn the engine so that the ignition points are in the closed position. Check the resistance from the negative terminal of the ignition coil to the negative battery post. You should again see 0 ohms.

If you see 0 ohms, switch the meter to measure DC volts. Briefly turn the key to on and measure the voltage between the + and - terminals of the ignition coil. You should see 12 volts. Turn off the ignition as soon as you get your measurement.
Groosh
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Oct 25 2016, 12:17 PM) *

Reattach wires to the ignition coil. Turn the engine so that the ignition points are in the closed position. Check the resistance from the negative terminal of the ignition coil to the negative battery post. You should again see 0 ohms.



If you see 0 ohms, switch the meter to measure DC volts. Briefly turn the key to on and measure the voltage between the + and - terminals of the ignition coil. You should see 12 volts. Turn off the ignition as soon as you get your measurement.


On this, my ohms meter did not go to 0.

I tried this measure too and did not get 12 volts. I did get any volts reading.

The key is off.
timothy_nd28
Silly question, but are the points in the closed position (touching each other) when you measured?
Groosh
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Oct 25 2016, 12:52 PM) *

Silly question, but are the points in the closed position (touching each other) when you measured?


Yes. Were they supposed to be?
timothy_nd28
Yes. Now check the resistance between the negative terminal of the ignition coil to the points that I circled in red.
Groosh
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Oct 25 2016, 02:10 PM) *

Yes. Now check the resistance between the negative terminal of the ignition coil to the points that I circled in red.


Key off, points closed. 0 ohms.

I noticed I kicked off a wire accidentally from the negative coil. I redid the test of resistance from negative coil to negative battery and got 0 ohms.

I tried the test from neg coil to pos coil for DC V and did not get anything. I think...
timothy_nd28
That's fine, thanks for telling me. Repeat the test from post# 56.

You have a solid ground at the negative terminal at the ignition coil, and if the results from post 56 gives you a green light, by definition you should have 12 volts between the positive and negative terminal at the ignition coil.
Groosh
QUOTE(timothy_nd28 @ Oct 25 2016, 02:57 PM) *

That's fine, thanks for telling me. Repeat the test from post# 56.

You have a solid ground at the negative terminal at the ignition coil, and if the results from post 56 gives you a green light, by definition you should have 12 volts between the positive and negative terminal at the ignition coil.


Yes. There are 12 volts at the positive coil metered to negative battery terminal.
timothy_nd28
Redo the test from the 2nd paragraph from post #69
Groosh
So I've been working with Tim and he has been absolutely invaluable in helping me to diagnose and repair this wiring train wreck. Thank you to Tim and the 914World forum!

To help close the loop for others reading this post we, and by we I mean Tim, finally figured out that the condensor was shorting out. By cutting the wire to it we returned spark to the engine and it fired. The engine doesn't quite run but we are getting closer.
Frankvw
That is good to hear. Thanks for the update. Interesting post for sure!
good luck with the final steps and keep us updated. I understand the issue is a pita for you, but by posting this others learn from it.
thanks Groosh and Tim.
Groosh
Since it's 60 degrees in Michigan, I've attempted some updating on the car. I went to electronic ignition by Hot Spark and the car fired up. But as I was adjusting the timing and revving it, the car died.

It looks like the fuel pump stopped working. There was no pressure to the rail when I cranked. But then I tried to jumped the relay to get the fuel pump going and still the car doesn't run.

Harumph. I thought I had this thing ready.
Groosh
Another warm day and another attempt. This time it is fixed!

It turns out the ground wire from the dual relay was attached to the fan shroud as pictured. This is a poor ground. I moved it over to the three prong engine ground (on the advice of Tim) and it fired right up. I drove it around the block after bleeding the brakes and it runs. beerchug.gif
mark04usa
piratenanner.gif Glad to hear that you've had sucess. Thank you for posting the fix.
timothy_nd28
I love happy endings. beerchug.gif It's been awhile since you worked on this, I had to re-read what was done. I'm still amazed you had a shorted condenser on the dizzy.
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