While I agree that personal disagreements and name calling don't really serve much purpose on this site I think that others opinions on a car for sale can be quite informative. I myself have learned quite a bit about the good,the bad and the ugly on 914 from people on this site that know quite a bit more than me about the pitfalls of buying a "used 914". I wished I had read most of this constructive criticism before I bought my first few 914s. There seems to be a few people who don't mind taking advantage of those that don't know or haven't suffered thru repairing a misrepresented car.I'm sure I'm not the only one who has learned the hard way but again I repeat,I'm greatful to all the members here that voiced their opinions on cars that were not what they seemed. Most people here seem to look out for the rest of us that don't know everything so I'd say I'm not the only one that gleans most of my info on good and bad from the balanced discussions on cars,parts etc. Quote:"If you're a buyer; Caveat Emptor - be aware there are various "Resellers" who are scouring our classifieds trying to sell you stuff. Caveat emptor = Buyer Beware. Be "very" cautious about pricing. Do your homework. We're not saying these people are "bad, crooked, evil or dishonest". It has simply been brought to our attention that some are attempting to price gouge our members.

"Gang - Fair Trade is just that... "Fair". If you're haunting our classifieds just to make a buck off our members; fine. Do it at a fair price. Make no mistake, we feel this is a valuable service to our members. HOWEVER, if you're price gouging our members; we'll work together to call you out. " Anyone here agree?

+1. I try not to negative comment. When I see an item that is for sale and I know the original source I will just start a new thread next to the FS thread with the direct source. NOS stock and very rare items the sky is the limit on price and market will dictate if it sells. Just my .02

I agree Mike, & have occasionally been what is now defined as an "offender" weighing in on particulars about certain cars or parts - always with the intend to be helpful.

To take your points a bit further - if we can only comment or correct things on a car/part by PM - then nobody else ever sees nor knows about the issue, & the seller can ignore the comments.

However, I think your topic here should be in the Garage Forum for a broader discussion, with an explanation of why you're bringing it up now, for those who maybe didn't see the series topics rant posts. Maybe you cn do another thread on there?

I don't know what precipitated the Admin to fire them off like that, but I suspect that it must've been something serious to set that all off. I agree that name calling, complaints, etc. shouldn't be on the ad posts (unless it's a valid problem with the part, delivery, etc. of that ad & done in a polite way).

Hope it's not too hot & sticky in W.Penn for you!
We're just hot here in SoCal. < LOL - Never mind, I thought the OP was Dr. Evil

Cheers!
Tom
///////

Dang . . . and I missed it all. Except for the Admins 5 or 6 repeated punches.
I'm dying to see the original post now . . . anyone have a link?

I think you should be allowed to comment on cars and parts for sale , there's a lot of people on this site who know a great deal more than myself and I appreciate there opion
When selling if you have nothing to hide let people have there opion if it gets personal then Admin should intervene other wise leave well alone

I would also be curious to see what the offending link was as I check the site regularly and don't remember seeing anything in particular (unless it was quickly removed)
There are a lot of astute 914 enthusiasts on this site who can spot a flaw or problem a mile away and I think that most comments made are helpful to potential buyers because they often point out issues that may be overlooked in the rush to make a deal. Or over looked because of inexperience.
I also feel that there is a big difference between a member putting a car up for sale on the site and the ebay and craigslists ads which are also often included. The ebay and craigslist listings may be honest but are occasionally scams or attempts to sell a car that is "not as advertised" These listings should be fair game to any and all comments about the car or the seller that members feel like sharing, especially if they know the car or seller from a previous bad experience.

Frankly these posts are an example of the problem ...this is a "Cars for sale" forum. Unless the seller has asked for comments you are out of line. The administrator tried to get that message through but y'all would rather debate it...
Get it now

I was thinking it might have been my comments on this FS thread where I posted a link to the original parts source, not sure but here it is.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=289817&hl=

Since you are still able to view it I might not be the offender.

Can an Admin move this to the Garage forum please, for a broader discussion & proper placement.

I don't think the OP knew where to put this one.

I do think that we 914world members should be able to look out for each other on here with a modicum of helpful comments in ads - as in helpful either to seller or buyer(s) or for both.

We shouldn't be protecting only sellers like they do on evil-bay & craig's lost does, with their caveat emptor to buyers.

IMHO - Mike F's post noted above saved some serious coin to some members over a high mark-up! Moral of the story: if you want to make a business of trolling evil-bay & finding items, then maybe only mark up a reasonable margin, but not 3-4x what you paid ($34.77 > $111 incl. shipping in this case). That is just taking advantage of members here.

BTW - DHL shipping from Europe/UK is pretty good, about 1-1.5 weeks to the West Coast for me, if you see stuff over there.


Tom
///////

I think the OP didn't know where to post this, so did it where the other posts occured in here. Yes we should be able to debate or discuss such matters, but the Garage Forum is the appropriate place for it.

While I respect your opinion & your right to it & to express it, I disagree that the seller should expect to post anything & not be called on it. We should look out for each other, & 914world not be the wild west for sellers.

Cheers!
Tom
///////

I thought it had to do with this thread regarding fduval's car, which honestly I thought was an odd thread to start in the FS section anyway. It should have been posted in the garage, but I think the newbie poster didn't know.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=289224

Why not just disallow comments in the cars for sale section? Make it like the Samba, where if you want info or have questions, you have to email the seller? That would solve the problem. If anyone has questions about a car for sale, they can start a thread in the garage.
If you want to dissect cars, you can always go to BaT

Yes, the garage seems to be a better place for questions that are going to get answered by someone other than the seller!

Sellers are not always honest or they could be clueless with no intent to hide things.

Buyers are often clueless as well so sometimes the nitpicking is really an education for many.

Maybe all that is needed is a sticky at the top of the page linking to a thread on how to do your own PPI, what questions to ask, what you want re: pictures, etc...

Asking for pictures of the hell hole, etc., is ok in my book, just keep the comments to yourself or in PMs if you are actually serious about the car.

Eric's post is pretty clear -

"Do not comment on people's ads unless you are interested in purchasing the item or vehicle and you are requesting further information from the seller.

If you have personal issues with a seller, keep them as such... personal.

If you think the ad is misleading, contact the seller and an Admin via private message.

Any further abuse or violations of the site rules (name calling) will get you banned."

Then Mark, I guess some of us are pretty clearly saying that we disagree with Eric's approach to that, on this forum of members who should be looking out for each other, rather than letting sellers post anything they chose & then chose to ignore being called/corrected on it privately.

IIRC, you too have chimed in on occasion to correct something glaring to those who know, on some other folks classifieds. So I think that you do or have felt that way too, at least then.

Rennlist, Pelican, TheSamba (contrary to the comment above), Bimmerfiles, AirForums, & a number of the other forums which I'm on do not restrict other members pointing out things & corrections for the benefit of all, as Eric is trying to reinterpret the rules now.

These ARE the classified rules:

"Classified Rules!, Return to the forum

We've established the following guidelines to help make your sales/purchases as successful as possible!
- Please List WTB:, FS:, TRADE: etc (want to buy, for sale, and trade respectively) before your add title.
- Please put a price in your ad and state how you would like payment.
- If you'd like to bump your ads, feel free to do so every two days.
- DO NOT MAKE YOUR ADS IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS! It's considered rude.
- All eBay ads belong in the eBay category.
- Please consolidate your ads into one big lump... listings and pictures together in one thread. Please be considerate of other classified users!!"

It says NOTHING of the sort which Eric put in his several posts on this matter.

PS - Eric is usually pretty easy going, so I'm guessing that he was having a bad day &/or something in particular set him off on it.

PS - I do agree that ongoing OT discussions on someone else's ad is inconsiderate, & should be avoided to be polite, but pointing out something to help the seller &/or prospective buyers is not OT IMHO, & is what we should be doing for our fellow members. And I've suggested to many advertisers on CL & other places to come to 914world to list their cars & parts etc. to reach the 914 community worldwide - so i'm not anti-seller, even when I may not want/need their particular item (i.e.: no malice intended).

Cheers!
Tom
///////

It didn't look to be a discussion. I just took it as face value and probably representing Sir Andy's wishes. Since he's the one who controls the "ban button" I'm following the request. If you want to challenge it, be my guest.

PS - I meant that this topic was started as a discussion in response to these new "off the books" classified rules.

Mark, nothing personal.

I was just pointing out that the Classified Rules say nothing about the new restrictions, & that many of us have a different opinion.

I too have been PMing a couple of classified posters on their clarifications myself - & the true loss to this site in general, is that the sources/alternatives for the WTB one that I PMed on are now "lost" to the rest of the membership who may be looking for the same part. We've had a couple of PMs back & forth re rain trays, & I think/hope that I helped the OP, but nobody else knows that info now, which has been a big value to many on this site, as a few have noted above.

I don't know about Andy's thoughts on the matter Mark, but I do feel it's worth discussing how we let sellers operate in our classifieds, & whether members can/should publicly comment on key issues about classified posts.

However, I do think that trying to resolve a sale, price, delivery or other issue with a seller should first be tried privately by PM/email/call.

And maybe that was what Eric (& other Admins?) was getting at for his posts, & then just went beyond that aspect with the multiple posts?

I would think that Andy (914world owner) & the other Admins would be open to hearing other members' thoughts on the matter.

But this topic really should be moved to the Garage for that reason.


Tom
///////

I'm guessing the - new "off the books" classified rules- are the new classified rules. That's why Andy has admins, to help - administer his rules to his site.

Mark,

I just cut-n-pasted the current classified rules in their entirety, as we replied this morning.

If there are new rules, then they would be at the click on button for the rules.

In the meantime for any changes to them, I assume that we're allowed to discuss the question.


Tom
///////

link to no comment rule in effect for last 4 years

Tom, you must have missed the member meeting when this new rule was voted in. Eric as the classified admin posted the new rule, in the worlds admin rules an regs pamplet he has 90 days to update the Main section rules posting. Eric as with the other admin do this for free, get off their backs, making an assumption he had a bad day and thats why he posted the new rule over and over shows how self absorbed you are , Why do you believe Eric or any other admin needs to address your thoughts on this?

Ask a question, don't make a comment, seems easy enough...

I often read things like that's too much money for that car, but often it's more likely "too much in my area".
California guys often state prices that are way lower than the rest of the country.
Canada prices are going to be higher mostly because of the exchange.
Euro prices way higher than that.

Add to that you have shipping costs and then that local cars price might not be as out of line as you think.

If a seller prices a car too high then it's just not going to sell. If you don't get a single PM on your car you are very likely too high on your asking price.

One of the reasons I say if someone is real worried about this start a general PPI or how to buy a 914 thread for people to read. Then get an admin to make it a top of the page sticky.
Make the buyer informed to make his own decision.

That was a nice car and got bashed for no reasons IMHO. If' you don't think its worth the asking price, then let someone else enjoy it. It's all relative.
I don't know how many 914 are actually driving in the province of Québec (5-10 ) but this one is probably one of the nicest one.

What about this one approaching our member selling price;

http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-porsche-914-2-0/

Not original color or interior, but still a very nice car, and will sell for the same price ball park.

Hey Mark, I do like that 914 buyer help topic idea!

I agree with you on the sales prices on the cars Mark, but the condition issues relative behind the values are probably helpful to other members' looking at the cars, if something is glaringly different than how it's presented by the seller.

I think some of the overpriced parts may be another issue though. For example, there was a guy in FL on CL over the past year who was trying to sell a rough looking set of5 of the 4-lug 914/4 Mahle Baby Gasburners for $2500 & more for the lugs & caps, who apparently didn't know the difference price-wise between them & the more rare & more expensive 5-lug 911/912/914-6 Mahles. After a year or so, he eventually got the message & dropped to $1000 IIRC & they sold within a month or so +/-, but with lugs & caps thrown in.

If it were on here, then some member could step in & point out the differences, & the guy would've had his wheels sold & money in hand sooner, & they buyer would have their set of restorable Mahles sooner, as well as saving some unknowing newbie from overpaying 2.5x too much on them.

So I think that those situations help all around to be handled in the open, rather than privately by PM/email only.

That sticky 914 buyer help topic you've suggested is a great idea too (or "nailed topic" as they call it on here), & one thing that should be in there is a link to the "914 Condition Assessment Form" which member Jeff Bowlsby created - with his permission of course.

http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/zTN_Gen_914CAF.pdf

Other resources for buyers to research would be a good idea in that nailed topic too, including Jeff's websites & the p914 & some of the better books out there.

Cheers!
Tom
///////

Personalty, as a buyer, I appreciate most of the comments on adds. This forum is a community. Not all of us are seasoned experts.

As a seller, you can always sell your stuff on other sites that do not allow comments. But not on BAT.

My $0.02

Mike

Tom is hitting the spot welds right on the head here. Is it possible to move this thread to the garage? Maybe just start another thread with a link? Tom, you're an admin at the club site and here right?

I personally like the feedback and input from members on my previous for sale cars here. Helps me identify details I forgot and allows members who have viewed my car in person to give their $.02.

No I'm not, otherwise I would've just moved it myself.

You may be thinking of George asking me last year to be one on the 914club site for their Concours Forum (essentially our Originality & History), but I didn't want to step on Pat Garvey's more experienced toes on here & there for both of those C & O&H forums, & I really don't have the time until I retire & get some projects done - including a house refurb/remodel/update.

Although I still try to help folks out on both sites where/when I can with my TMI posts (BTW - I use a laptop & type fast!) - & try to garner interest in folks coming out to our SoCal PCA Concours - if they can just get by the CW avoidance part - & think of them as fun cars shows to attend, display or enter!

Maybe someone will move it .... eventually.


Tom
///////

Doesn't matter where the thread is moved. The decision has been made ( quite a while ago in fact)

Simple solution. when posting in a for sale thread just start with "I'm interested in your car but"....

Here is the next problem. Someone interested in purchasing a car here posts a comment and a question in the same breath, Gets banned as he is going back to check for a response and send a PM with an offer, doesn't know why he can no longer follow a car he is interested in purchasing. Can't remember the sellers screen name, By the time he figures out it's not the site going down he has lost the option to purchase. So getting banned without a fair warning to clarify the parties intent could cause some real ill will.

If I comment on a car it's because I'm interested in it and the seller either does not know he is misleading or does and is counting on someone with less knowledge to step up and pull the trigger.

I will be sure to start my inquiry that way from now on.

Tom
///////

So Mark, are you saying that you're one of the Admins?

I have no idea who are all the Admins are on here, nor do most on here I would think.

We don't appear to have anywhere listing the Admins & Mods & what they're in charge of on the site.

So how would somebody on here who sees something misleading or incorrect on an ad, even know who & how to contact a Admin to report it, as Eric's post said to do!!??

Also, if it was decided "quite a while ago," then the Classified &/or site rules should've been updated to reflect that & any other new rule(s), & certainly should be now that this has come up.

I say this, because Eric's 5-7+/- threads on it will eventually disappear at the bottom of the list netherworld, or after the 30 day or whatever the expiration is.

I agree with Rick that folks should not be blindsided & banned for something that is not generally known - & new folks on here will not know all of these "unwritten rules" of which you & the Admins seem to be aware of exclusively.

And that is in addition to & aside from some members' disagreement on the wisdom & value of this rule, as already noted by many in this topic (& maybe other rules), relative to looking out for our fellow members.

There seems to be more posts in favor of allowing reasonable comments done tactfully & constructively, than against it & banning folks - & most of the latter are just saying that's the decision so shut up & accept it, with little reasoning behind it's purpose - other than to protect sellers, who may or may not be purposely misrepresenting their cars &/or wares.

JMHO
Tom
///////

BTW - does this new rule also apply to all types of classifieds - i.e.: parts & other stuff - or only to cars & rollers for sale??

And in the same vein either way - does this also mean that we risk being banned for adding useful info on the the topic for WTB ads - of all or just cars FS classifieds?

And can another member answer an interested prospective buyer's question - &/or correct an incorrect seller answer - once a question on the subject has been asked, or will that also get us banned?

Those are 3 valid questions affecting everybody, so I'd appreciate an actual answer clarifying them on here.

TIA
Tom
///////

Are we looking for opinions here?

Banning someone just for commenting on a car or parts for sale seems a little thin skinned to me.

I think I saw the original one that set this off about the lenses. I didn't see a problem for someone saying they could find them somewhere else cheaper - but it may have gone to far to put the guy down for trying to make a profit off the group. - then the other guy who went though the explanation process put it into perspective and that was good information for all of us to see what it takes to get parts for the rest of us.

Not sure I see what all the fuss is about, but I guess I'll be careful now.

No, I am not an admin. I never said I was. You can get the list of admins from the site. Follow the rules, don't follow the rules, I don't care.

We are all friends here so I'm just guessing the admins are not going to start banning members without some heads up first. It takes a lot on world to really get Andy pissed.

No, I understand that you never said so, it just seemed like you knew what, when & how that new rule all came down, & I'd not heard anything about it before this thing.

I was out of touch on here for a big chunk of time last year while my Aunt was sick & passed on, so I may have missed it.

Also, those of us in disagreement with this no commenting on here about this classifieds rule, are just stating our reasons why.

I think the best rule for everything on here, is just to treat others as you'd want to be treated, which was always a good guideline for life in general, as imparted by my parents, grandparents & especially great-grandmother.

So apologies to you, if I offended you by asking. I wasn't intending to do so.


Tom
///////

Hey-Fuching-Zeus...

It was discussed adnauseum FOUR years ago.

READ THIS TOM (Et al):
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=194079

Moreover; read the date of when it was written. I HAS BEEN A STICKY AT THE TOP OF THE PAGE FOR FOUR YEARS NOW (jus say'n)

I didn't make the rule. I'm put in the position of attempting to enforce it because people don't seem to remember it, care about it, abide by it, etc. I'm the one who gets bitched at when I'm not always available to monitor the carny's raiding the circus. It appears I get bitched at when I attempt enforce or remind people of it.

This is an extremely well run "self policed" site. Meaning; the monkeys run the zoo. It's just a little easier if the monkeys know the rules. Go have a banana and stop flinging poop at me!

Sorry, but I didn't see that before as a sticky Eric. My bad!

If it applies to all types of ads, then maybe put a sticky at the overall classifieds section too as a sticky.

Also, I meant nothing against you for having to enforce the rules on here - as I said early on - but I was just saying that I disagree with the idea that only actual buyers can ever comment on ads (in a helpful & polite way), as have others.

Thanx for pointing out the sticky.


Tom
///////

Also - I think that adding to the number of the posts on this topic: "This one's "Killing" me. I "must" comment to show everyone how much I know!" - was not the most tactful nor right way to put it, & comes across as insulting to those of us trying to help others - as others on here have helped us before. It was just unnecessary & unjust, along with the other 3-4 posts on the same topic.

As folks above have already stated - many are either atrying to help others, & others are thankful the help.

Just offered up herein as a thought for the future handling of such notices, as well as to others on here who like to post disparaging comments about others' intentions, when they really have no idea what those intentions are/were.

Just give folks the benefit of the doubt, & be kind!

Cheers!
Tom
///////

Advising can be done via pm or email.

MOVE FUCHING ON PLEASE... I don't have the need or desire to be publicily or privately chastised in an essay on the subject (that also means I don't need 12 more 3690 word PM's on the subject)