How critical is the draining of the oil from the turbo back to the engine?

For the turbo that is not going to be installed on my car, 'cause you cannot turbo a 914, I'm toying with mounting the turbo either right behind the collector on my header (see second picture...red outline on header, mine is similar to the one in picture....) (a la' Chapman's 3.0 turbo setup with turbo in the back)

or use a mandrel bent U bend pipe to locate the turbo up where Ben M (airsix) has his turbo located


Since the oil going to the turbo is pressurized, shouldn't the oil have no problems getting out of the bearings of the turbo and back to the motor without assistance??

If you put the turbo back by the muffler will you have the air intake/filter back there too? Might be interesting.

before the muffler loks like the easiest way to me.....

when are you going to get started dude?
if anyone ould do it...you can mike

If I remember correctly our 1987 930 has a drain from the turbo that goes to a small catch can and then back to the sump? I'll take a look to be sure but I remember the lines are all stainless steel since the turbo gets pretty hot when you have your foot in it!

QUOTE (john rogers @ Apr 18 2005, 10:30 AM)

If I remember correctly our 1987 930 has a drain from the turbo that goes to a small catch can and then back to the sump? I'll take a look to be sure but I remember the lines are all stainless steel since the turbo gets pretty hot when you have your foot in it!

I've seen small electric oil pumps for this application, but I'm hoping to avoid spending the $250 or so for one

Mike: I had a turbo on a sandrail and ran the return oil through the the valve cover. Had to use RTV to seal it up, turbo cough is exciting. Think I would tap into the rocker aera somewhere and use AN fittings.
Joe

If you can mount the engine high enough close to the engine you can let gravity flow it back to the valve cover or if its really high the breather cover.
If you mount it back where I did, you will most likely need a pump I used a Tilton from Pegasus racing for around 200.00.
Dont worry about turbo lag when mounted in back, its not significant enough to make a noticeable difference.

One thing I would like to add, if you mount it in the back you can fabricate it like I did and have the turbo , wastegate, and muffler all mounted together for easy removal of the entire setup at once.

QUOTE (iamchappy @ Apr 18 2005, 11:09 AM)

If you can mount the engine high enough close to the engine you can let gravity flow it back to the valve cover or if its really high the breather cover. If you mount it back where I did, you will most likely need a pump I used a Tilton from Pegasus racing for around 200.00. Dont worry about turbo lag when mounted in back, its not significant enough to make a noticeable difference.

cool...I found the pump @ Summit for $178 w/free shipping

Mike, that is the same pump I use for the tranny cooling system in my race car. They work nice although I don't think it is really needed unless you run on boost for reaaaaaallllllly long periods. The purpose of the can that is in the drain of our 1987 is to grab the oil and when the crank case goes into a vacuum again it will get pulled back easily. I'd try some sort of setup like that and if it fials them get more complicated with the pump.

The 930 has a scavenge pump driven by the front of the drivers side cam. This pumps the oil out of the little sump under the turbo, the dumps the oil into the dry sump tank.

Using the infeed pressure may work, but you also may pump the oil past the turbos seals, and make a nice smokescreen for those behind you.

Modified K27 and K29s had seal problems and scavenge pumps are a must ( when low mounted like on a 930)

also on the 930 the turbo is lower than the dry sump tank, so gravity cant work in this regard.

mount the turbo high, and drain into a valvle cover etc, or use a scavenge pump

Gee I thought I might have something to add to this thread but people have already come through with great 'real-world' info.

The sump tank attached to the drain outlet of the turbo is good for a few things, it allows the foaming oil to settle so the pump can scavenge it and it allows the turbo to drain oil out of the housing on shut down and helps prime the pump when you restart. I have an extra sump I made with 8AN fittings on it that I am no longer using if you need one.

I am also using my Tilton pump now as a tranny cooler

Heres a picture of the cam pump and sump on my setup

Heres with the Tilton pump

QUOTE

if anyone ould do it...you can mike

that should be:

if Mike could do it......anyone can do it

thanks for the info peoples, I'll try the sump/gravity method 1st....

Hey Mike,
I cringe every time I see that pic (at top). I've since trimmed the rear engine tin so it's nice and clean back there (unlike the mess pictured). Here is the same pic with the oil drain line pointed out in case it's not clear. I used 5/8" hose with a spring inside. The spring is so I could make the very tight bend to get around to the valve cover. The line is only about 8 or 9 inches long. It goes straight down about 4 inches, makes a 90 degree horizontal bend and then goes about another 4 inches horizontally to a 90 degree elbow at the rear of the valve cover. I havn't had any problems with the turbo seals, but I have new leaks on other places to deal with.

-Ben M.

Turbos drain back oil is not pressurized. You must have a drain line that has enough room to handle foamy, aerated oil. Preferably 10-12 AN. MOst people will not agree with me but I see lots of people building ghetto kits as well. So I won't agree with them either.

As far as a pump goes, call Grainger and get a Water Puppy. That is the same pump that Tilton uses. You should be able to get it for 150 or less. I like the Idea of a small sump That is the way to go.

Of course if you divided the engine bay you could mount it up high like ED did and wouldn't have to worry about it.

QUOTE (Brett W @ Apr 19 2005, 04:36 AM)

Turbos drain back oil is not pressurized. You must have a drain line that has enough room to handle foamy, aerated oil. Preferably 10-12 AN. MOst people will not agree with me but I see lots of people building ghetto kits as well. So I won't agree with them either.

Well, AN 10 is 3/4" and AN 12 is 1". That's pretty big. I don't see any reason to go bigger than the nipple coming out of the turbo housing. Mine took a 5/8" hose, which was also the size of the drain hose in the stock application. As far as hose/connector type - I see no reason to use expensive AN fittings since as you said - the oil return is NOT pressurized. It would look very nice though.

-Ben M.

Biting my tongue.

Brett's comments from the oil-cooler thread:

QUOTE

I get so frustrated with guys that ghetto engineering things. It would take the same amount of time to do it right and you wouldn't have to band-aid some crappy rigged setup later.

Brett,
I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but your label of the day (ghetto engineering) is starting to sound a little condescending.

-Ben M.

ps - My ghetto 914 is much faster than your non-ghetto 914 (and I would guess mine cost less).

QUOTE (airsix @ Apr 19 2005, 01:57 PM)

Brett's comments from the oil-cooler thread: QUOTE I get so frustrated with guys that ghetto engineering things. It would take the same amount of time to do it right and you wouldn't have to band-aid some crappy rigged setup later. Brett, I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but your label of the day (ghetto engineering) is starting to sound a little condescending. -Ben M. ps - My ghetto 914 is much faster than your non-ghetto 914 (and I would guess mine cost less).

that is why I prefer "mickey mouse engineering"

so no need for super high temp hoses going to and from the turbo with regards to the oiling??

QUOTE

that is why I prefer "mickey mouse engineering"  :D   so no need for super high temp hoses going to and from the turbo with regards to the oiling??

mike... use braided....

also, where are you tapping oil from for the turbo?


check this. i have steves 38mm pump, and it works great. they have a cover for it with In/Out ports for a turbo...


but with a different cover on the front... pressurized oil to your turbo, and the oil goes right back to your pump...

ask steve for a pic of the cover for the turbo... some stainless braided lines and your done.

QUOTE

38mm Oil Pump with Turbo bypass Cover This pump has a bypass cover for turbo oil lines.

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Apr 19 2005, 03:07 PM)

QUOTE that is why I prefer "mickey mouse engineering"  :D   so no need for super high temp hoses going to and from the turbo with regards to the oiling?? mike... use braided.... also, where are you tapping oil from for the turbo? check this. i have steves 38mm pump, and it works great. they have a cover for it with In/Out ports for a turbo... but with a different cover on the front... pressurized oil to your turbo, and the oil goes right back to your pump... ask steve for a pic of the cover for the turbo... some stainless braided lines and your done. QUOTE 38mm Oil Pump with Turbo bypass Cover This pump has a bypass cover for turbo oil lines.

aaron.....I'm going to put a "T" in the oil pressure sending unit line, that is where I believe it is recommended....I'd rather not have to pull the fan housing and all to replace the oil pump, I have a hard enough time "not" taking my car apart as it is, hahhaha

anyone else want to do this turbo stuff at the same time? I have 2 identical turbos, for whatever parts I make I'll make 2 and give you a killer deal

items needed....same header (European Racing) and some sort of aftermarket FI (I'm using a Link ECU, MS would work)

mike. it took me a day to swap oil pumps, and it cured a few issues at the same time. it seems like the rightway to me..... or the best solution.

YMMV

Aaron

QUOTE (Mueller @ Apr 19 2005, 01:45 PM)

that is why I prefer "mickey mouse engineering"  :D so no need for super high temp hoses going to and from the turbo with regards to the oiling??

Hmmm.... "ghetto" or "Rodent that sounds like Michael Jackson". Hmmmm.... I think I'll stick with ghetto.

I have a heat shield between the ghetto turbo and the ghetto oil return hose (you can kind of see it in that awful picture above). I've got maybe 3,000 ghetto miles on the car since adding the turbo and the return line shows no signs of degredation (yet). I wish I had a current ghetto picture to show you so you could see how I finished the rear ghetto engine tin. It is all in place now (not just bent out of the way) except for a turbo-shaped ghetto cutout that the intake side of the turbo peeks through. It's sealed off from the ghetto engine compartment very well. (all in fun, Brett)

Going TO the turbo use a hard line for the last 8 inches or so. For the rest of the feed line use a grease-gun hose or somehting else that will cause Brett's blood pressure to spike. (I'm kidding Brett!)

-Ben M.

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Apr 19 2005, 02:07 PM)

38mm Oil Pump with Turbo bypass Cover This pump has a bypass cover for turbo oil lines.

Now that's about the coolest thing I've ever heard of.

-Ben M.

QUOTE (airsix @ Apr 19 2005, 04:00 PM)

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Apr 19 2005, 02:07 PM) 38mm Oil Pump with Turbo bypass Cover This pump has a bypass cover for turbo oil lines. Now that's about the coolest thing I've ever heard of. -Ben M.

its the shit man!

the turbo one pumps oil up to the turbo, and back down to the pump, where it recirculates....

seems like an easy way to do it.....

just MHO

AA

QUOTE (airsix @ Apr 19 2005, 04:00 PM)

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Apr 19 2005, 02:07 PM) 38mm Oil Pump with Turbo bypass Cover This pump has a bypass cover for turbo oil lines. Now that's about the coolest thing I've ever heard of. -Ben M.

so you are saying that pump will circulate the complete oiling for the turbo...going to it and from it????

if so, that is pretty cool....I could just wait to install that on my 2.3 motor I am building........

QUOTE (Mueller @ Apr 19 2005, 04:14 PM)

QUOTE (airsix @ Apr 19 2005, 04:00 PM) QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Apr 19 2005, 02:07 PM) 38mm Oil Pump with Turbo bypass Cover This pump has a bypass cover for turbo oil lines. Now that's about the coolest thing I've ever heard of. -Ben M. so you are saying that pump will circulate the complete oiling for the turbo...going to it and from it???? if so, that is pretty cool....I could just wait to install that on my 2.3 motor I am building........

i belive that is what it does. i held one of thes pumps at the headrage BBQ. very cool. IN and OUT on the pump.

call steve stromberg to make sure,
tell him i sent ya

QUOTE

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but your label of the day (ghetto engineering) is starting to sound a little condescending.

So? There is a right way to do things and then there is the way I see lots of people doing things. Look at how the factory apporaches things, it must be cheap and durable. I realize the factory has a few more cubic dollars on hand but that shouldn't stop people from doing things right.

I see people doing turbo kits for cars using goofy ass cheater boxes and rising rate FPRs, using, pvc for charge lines, globing weld onto cast iron manifolds to make down pipes, low temp cheap hose with radiator clamps for oil lines, etc

It would take a little more time and a little more money to do it right, use nice braided lines and fittings for oil lines, going to a standalone turbo capable fuel control system, building the proper exhaust manifolds from good materials and designs, using better oil coolers and intercoolers, etc.

All of these things are the difference in professional appearing and functioning system and some of the ghetto rigged systems that DIYs are none for doing. Maybe the 914 wouldn't have such a bad wrap if some of the owners took the time to put some professionalism into their projects. (obviously this applies to all car owners)

If you do not have the tools or experience to do it right, get the tools and find someone with experience to learn how to do it right. Have some pride in doing a nice job of designing and building a functional professional looking system. Just because you work on your own stuff doesn't mean it has to be sub-par.

Got good Nomex so flame on.

Brett, this is nothing new to the 914 crowd only (doing something on the cheap)...do a google for DIY turbos or whatever and just about every manufacture out there has a make or model that the owners just love doing major mods "on the cheap".......

I admire someone like Ben for doing something with no formal training and using elementary tools than someone that shows up with a $100K twin-turbo whatever 'cause all they did was write a check and pay "others" to trick it out for them.

I'm sure Ben wants a cleaner install, but like you said it takes money and it takes time....both of which not everyone has.....for a home brew setup, why the big fuss??? Now if he said he "paid" someone else for that turbo install, I'd be embarrassed to admit that (no offense Ben ) but he did it himself....and it was his first install...

the problem with your logic of using nice braided hose, prog. FI, proper coolers..etc...etc...is that if one waits to purchase and install all of that, then the project might never get finished or they'll go broke trying......

My install is not going to be pretty and quite frankly, i don't care who likes it or not, if they want to "sponsor" me so that I can do it "correctly", I'm willing to spend thier money

Your logic is way out there, you've been hanging out with the mega-buck crowd too long ......

No flames Brett. I agree with some of what you're saying. I love to look into an engine compartment or lay on a creeper and stare up at fine engineering and well-thought-out design. I also like to see creative problem solving. And you're right that craftsmanship and attention to detail are virtues. I also accept that "my way" does not necessarily mean "the right way" or "the only way" or "the best way".

-Ben M.

QUOTE (Mueller @ Apr 19 2005, 08:11 PM)

the problem with your logic of using nice braided hose, prog. FI, proper coolers..etc...etc...is that if one waits to purchase and install all of that, then the project might never get finished or they'll go broke trying......

I was out in the garage and suddenly my ears started burning...

Hi Mike. I've got thick skin. Mike already knows this, but just so everybody is clear: My turbo install is temporary. I made a concious decision to NOT go overboard with fancy plumbing, custom stainless exhaust, new turbo and BOV, etc. I decided it would be a waste of time and money to do that because I've got other plans for this car. This project was fun, but ladies, 150hp doesn't cut it for me. This project was to teach me how to tune my EFI system (in preparation for running it on a six or turbo-six), give me a few more ponies to tide me over until the six is ready, and as a learing experience. Blowing the doors off Impallas, VR6 Passats, and all non-S2000 Hondas is just a bonus. When my next powerplant is ready I'll hand-me-down this stuff to someone else to play with (excluding the ECU).

-Ben M.

Mike and Ben,

here is a pic of the oil pump..... look close and you can see the IN and OUT ports on the cover

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Apr 19 2005, 09:13 PM)

here is a pic of the oil pump..... look close and you can see the IN and OUT ports on the cover

Wouldn't it be a bad thing if the super hot oil from your turbo would be directly directed back into your case ?

QUOTE (Walter @ Apr 19 2005, 10:37 PM)

Wouldn't it be a bad thing if the super hot oil from your turbo would be directly directed back into your case ?

Legit concern, but the volume of oil being introduced into the pump from the turbo would be a drop in the bucket compared with the volume of oil being pulled from the sump. I don't think it would be an issue.

-Ben M.

Sammy if wanting to to the best job I can then I am holier than thou. I am not trolling for a fight, I am calling it like I see it. I don't write checks to anyone but a supplier for materials or parts. I don't claim anyone elses work as my own. I'll post pics when I get to the house.

Doing a project right is not necessarily about spending a ton of money. It is about designing a part that won't fail and leave you stuck on the side of the road broke down or dead. It's about designing everything to work together as a successful system should. I have worked on NASA spec'd projects and other governement projects where things were on the cheap and not so cheap, but they always had quality craftsmanship put into them.

Look at most V8 conversions, slap a big motor in an aircooled car, with little dinky brakes and weak chassis and what do you get a car that is faster than hell but won't stop, will overheat, and looks like it was put together by two drunk monkeys. You don't have to spend a ton of money but getting a radiator that fits right, smartly upgrading the brakes and chassis, etc. Being cheap and broke is no excuse for not doing the best job you can, even if it means spending a little more and waiting a little longer for the pieces.

After the past weekend at the track I am through trying to cheap my way through things. It is right or it doesn't leave my garage. I don't care if it takes a zillion years to finish.

On this Forum there are some very nice cars, look at any car done by Perry Kiehl, look at Joe Obrien's car, look at Ed Villelas old car, look at many the 914-6 guys., Look at the guy that had the 2270 powered Tangerine colored car in Excellence last year, Look at anything Jake does, look at any car that Brad does. All of these people are examples of people that refuse to take short cuts. When you takle pride in your work and reputation then you will not allow some ghetto engineered stuff to roll out of your shop.

My engineer Father always says "Just because it quacks doesn't mean it's a duck." I fail to see why you would need stainless-sheathed hose with AN fittings for a turbo oil return that is unpressurised, shielded from high-heat, and doesn't move around. No OEM's do that. Are they all doing it wrong? That, IMHO IS NOT "doing it right" it's over-engineering something so that you feel good when you look at it. "Looks fancy" is not the same as "well engineered". You've made it quack, but that doesn't mean it's a duck.

I see a lot of 914's for sale with "$60,000 invested" in the description. They never sell or they go for 1/4 of that price and the builder/seller walks away bitter. Build whatever you like, but my 914 is a mule. And I like it that way. It's taught me a lot, and tuition has been cheap. If I want pretty and refined I'll go look at my M3. If I want precision craftsmandship I'll build another one of my scratch-built custom liner-lock pocketknives made from raw matterials that has over 20 measurements that must be accurate to 0.0005". I don't need that from my 914. Maybe YOU do, but that just means that's "your way". It doesn't necessarily mean "the right way". You're sounding like that Maddox guy who says "This page is about me and why everything I like is great. If you disagree with anything you find on this page, you are wrong."

-Ben M.

The factory uses a braided flex hose or a bellowed flex semi-hard line. It doesn't have some crappy heater hose with cheap ass worm clamps on it. It will last for awhile, it won't last for 100k+ like most factories design their parts to last. If you can find the factory flex hose fine. The braided line shows that you took the time to use a part that is more than just adequate and was not slapped on as an after thought.