Looking to upgrade my present brake system but I want to keep it 4 lug AND keep the parking brake. Not to mention, staying out of the Poor House at the same time. I'm not opposed to moving up to a larger MC. Is there such an animal? TIA, Kent

I am working on aluminum billet hubs for four lug that will allow the use of BMW 320 calipers that will be modified for vented rotor use. They will use 911 1969-1976 20mm thick rotors. This will result in an economical upgrade package. Other than that you can go with the 320I calipers by modifying them to fit existing 914 struts. Estimating the hubs to be about $400 and calipers $200 , plus stock rotors $100 so the total will be in the $700-800 range. Prices are only an estimate pending on machining time and material cost. This was based on the Brad Robert design hubs which I recently acquired sold sets of the five lug recently.
I have sold several sets of the BMW calipers with customers staying with the 17mm master and they reported a greater brake pedal modulation. Upgrade to 19mm is not needed but would maintain the same pedal feel if you did got to a 19mm.
Looking for a test car to try it out when the first prototypes are produced.
Wanna be the Guinea pig?
Bruce

What is wrong with your current brakes that you are trying to fix?

For stopping power--
Upgrade #1 == tires. Brakes stop the wheels; tires stop the car.
Upgrade #2 == rebuilding the brake system. Most of us have old and tired parts in our brake system. Refreshing the system will go a long way to improving the stopping distance in that case.

--DD

Yes I do. PM me when your ready.


Everything is new sans the MC and working great. Why you ask? On a back road, I scared the shit out of myself a few month's back when I was teaching a BMW a lesson. Power is useless if you can't slow it down.

I am running the BMW calipers with a 19mm MC. My brakes are fantastic.

I often laugh when people want to upgrade the stock brakes for a street car.

I raced my car with stock brakes for 1-1/2 seasons, and if the system is in good working order and you have even 'decent' pads, this car stops better than ANY of my other cars.

If you like the firmer pedal feel, then upgrade your MC to the 19mm and get Porterfield pads all the way around.
If you want superior stopping power, get KFP Gold pads, but be prepared to hear squeaking.

I have stock front calipers all the way around, 19mm MC, and still use the prop valve on the rears.
I run the KFP pads on the front and Porterfields in the rear, and my car stops faster than almost any other car in my class. (with Hoosiers of course)
Like Dave says above, if you can lock the brakes, then the brakes are good enough, get better tires.

If be very interested in brake upgrade for front with vented rotors.

Someone once told me, "If you can lock the tire, you have enough brake"


Beyond that, most improve their brakes more for the heat soak and need to stop repeatedly from high speeds. A few quick stops on the street aren't usually enough to warrant most brake upgrades.


That said, you might find that better pads are alone all you need. What pads are you currently running?

+1, that's all you need at 20,30, 50 and 65 mph.

Yup. True. So why do I have aluminum "S" calipers in front and aluminum 914 6 calipers in the rear (thanks Eric) both front and rear on vented 911 rotors? Why?? Because it looks KOOL.
Stop on a dime, give ya 9 cents change.

So it just didn't slow down enough? In that case, see my earlier post. Good tires, and a system in good shape will do it. Plus decent pads.

--DD

Bruce, count me in. I am worried, since I track the car, about the heat generated with the extra power (from the Suby) and solid rotors. I already did the 320 calipers when I first got the car. They've been a nice heat sink (more metal than the stock calipers), but that's just with a stock Type IV.

The other obvious solution for most people is just to go 5-lug, but that would require 2 new sets of wheels as well for spares. This vented 4-lug setup is a better option for me personally.

Other than that, totally agree - on a street car, no need for anything but a fully, well-functioning stock braking system and a driver who knows how to modulate the brakes.

Wouldn't mind hearing this story...

:-)

100% serious. Have Eric rebuild your stock calipers. Use good pads. Do NOT replace the prop valve with a T fitting. Replace your tired soft brake lines. Bleed until the pedal is rock solid.

On a stock car, if your brakes are in good working order, the brakes work very well, and will out brake a lot of modern cars.

I'm running 205/60 tires, and can lock them up at will or modulate easily.

Zach

Bruce put me on the list please.

I'm running the BMW 320i calipers up front, have had them on there for about 15 years.

This was also my first brake upgrade. I also installed a "T" in the lines and threw the prop. valve away. But then again, I'm not a expert.

I would agree that locking the tires up indicates enough brake....I might disagree if the context meant effective braking.

On Betty's car we have the stock 4 lug brakes. Calipers rebuilt by PMB, pads supplied with the calipers, and a T fitting in the rear. Proportioning valve has been gone for over 15 years at the recommendation of the late Wes Hildreth.

The car stops great. Easy to modulate. Reliable, and the park brake works. It is definitely enough brakes for a /4 powered car.

Only problem is the pads squeal, and Betty doesn't like it. I need to put some Smurf Stuff on the backs of the pads to stop the squeal.

If you lock the wheel, there is nothing more than the brake can do for you in that particular application. And frankly, if you can't lock the brakes on a 914 then something is wrong with the system!!

Any improvement is either going to be to the feel of the pedal, the pedal effort, how easy or difficult it is to modulate to keep on the edge of lock-up, and heat management. Not to stopping. Heat management is important on the track, but it's a very rare street drive that causes stock brakes to overheat...

Then again, the Big Red brakes with cross-drilled rotors are a look that some people like, and they will do those upgrades just for the looks. Just remember that a heavier system can actually increase your stopping distances if it's heavier enough!

--DD

This is what happened. I'd been driving this back road when this newer black and yellow BMW suddenly appeared in my rearview mirror. I began to punch it some and couldn't shake him. This went on for about 5 miles thru lots of turns and braking. At one point they just wouldn't slow the car down quickly enough as I went thru a turn much faster than I wanted. As I coming up on the turn I remember looking at the speedo, seeing 90 and thinking oh shit. Thought I had bought the farm but came out of the turn OK. Thank you Dr. Porsche. I noticed he had dropped back on that turn and didn't try to hang with me through it. Maybe his girlfriend was screaming. He was right back on me after that. We pulled over and talked before the road merged back into the Hi Way. Heck of a nice guy and an extremely nice new BMW. Very sporty looking. He said to me " I told my girlfriend Goddamn, that old Porsche moves". I didn't tell him that I almost shit myself. I went back thru some of Erc's stuff and think maybe I need to go bed them in again because they don't lock up anymore. Pedal is stiff and I remember that they did lock up after I bedded them in 2 years ago. Rotors, pads and calipers were new or rebuilt from Erc and I've put about 7K on the stock pads which don't show any wear.

Sounds like your flex-line liners are swollen.

They pinch off the fluid flow which causes the pads to drag and overheat fluid cant flow back out.
Once you boil the fluid in a caliper, they stop working completely (in that caliper)

I think you need Subaru brakes.

They were replaced along with everything else during the conversion.

And you NEED all the cool factor that is available, at age +65!

Remember, "it is better to look good than to feel good". (Fernando)
Dobro jutro.

Yes these should stop your 914.


Click to view attachment

John Rogers had a set of the original billet hubs with 911 vented rotors on his GT flared, racing tire equipped 914 and loved them compared to the stock solid rotors.

He has a review someplace about them. I think for him the biggest improvement was the cooling since clamping force should be the same.

I had a ride, can't remember with whom, went around a corner at some speed ( the guy knew his car ), I didn't! Man, after that I can't live without spirited driving!

It was in the back roads, by Bothell, on the way to the Red Hook brewery. It was a while ago. But, man I had some fun turning those corners! I didn't have my seat belt on, but I did after that corner, fo sho!

I wish I could remember who I was with??? Anyone remember that day?

Oh, 914's!

Oh yeah, braking! I am going with some M calipers with vented rotors, and definitely a prop valve!

Clay. Bed her pads again.

http://www.pmbperformance.com/bedin.html

I bumped this to see if there was any progress in the world of the illusive "billet hub" that has eluded me for nearly a decade. Any update here? I still would really like to get a set of these hubs.

+1

I have often wondered if we could machine off the rotor from a stock front hub and fit it to a wilwood rotor.

I had posed this exact question some years back when I was trying to drum up demand for someone to start making these hubs again. Consensus back then was that the stock rotor doesn't have enough meat to safely machine into a wilwood style rotor hat.

Another 914 owner from over seas posted his set up with 914 style rotors that where actually made vented and their purpose was a beetle upgrade. He had early struts and reported that every thing he bought from kerscher tuning fit.

here is the link to the rotors if anyone cares...

kerscher beetle brake rotor

The problem with getting these is they cost a ton to get them shipped over. I found a US dealer and was quoted nearly $700 to get a set of rotors. Too much $$$ for a consumable in my option.

Then I found another custom bug shop in Cali that makes a billet hub for bugs. I got into contact with them in September. Sent $125 for them to pick up a late 914 strut and test fit their hubs and wilwood caliper mounts. Now the guy wont email me back or return my calls. So it looks like I got burned there.

So now I am to the point that I may grab a rotor and a strut and go to an engineering firm and see if I can have something whipped up. I know that somewhere, someone has the CAD drawings of brads old hubs, if I was to get A copy of the blue prints I could get something made up quick.

If Bruce is making these, it would save me a lot of time and trouble. But if not, I may move forward and try to get something done.

That would be me , of course I cannot find it right now

I'm guessing Mark made his own drawing for the units Bruce has in the Classifieds section. Is that VW shop in NorCal or SoCal? If up here I'd gladly go pick those up!

My 914 is still not at my house so I don't have a strut assembly to measure. I fully plan on making a set for my car (with added material to eliminate my 20mm spacer) with my new CNC mill/lathe but I need my car at my house 1st!

Mueller, old pal... Its like deja vu with you me and these hubs again. So the original plans have gone the way dodo bird? When are you getting your car back?

Interesting day today has turned out to be. Today, out of the blue the guy at the custom bug shop emailed me to let me know he has mocked up the hub and and is in the process of designing caliper mounts for dynalite calipers. Probably a month out. Only one problem, the Hub is 5 lug 5x130. Good news is it does fit 914 struts. I guess this is great for guys that want performance brakes and 5 lugs wheels.

I don't want to buy new wheels again. But I will if I have to.

Hey Mueller, you said Bruce is selling them in the classified section, I can't for the life of me find them. Mind posting a link for me please?

Yep, we never learn do we?

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...hl=billet++hubs

I just noticed 5 lug, my bad, I cannot remember if he had some 4 lug versions for sale or not, couldn't hurt to ask.

Plans are someplace on one of my old computers I am sure, I know I have a hardcopy floating around in my garage someplace.

PM'd Bruce, his hubs are still in development.

I think if you can find your plans (fingers crossed) I have a guy in mind that can whip me up a set quick. Eric at kitcarchassis.com made my boxster S adapter plate to lS engine. Back when this was almost in the works a couple years ago I called him a mentioned these hubs. He was down to machine me a set.

That could be a option, or maybe see how this custom bug shop deal plays out. The shop is in So Cal. Its is... http://www.coolrydescustoms.com/

The owner seems like a cool dude, when I can reach him. 5 lug for me is a bit of a bummer, but it gives me a reason to buy some Z06 corvette wheels, which I always thought would look awesome on my car.

Interesting times here... stay tuned...

EDIT: Bruce PM'd me again to tell me that they had an issue with the first run, but he is underway with building these. So if that is the case, I would love to pay Bruce for a set and be done with this nightmare... lol

Some progress made. First samples had issues due to machine leveling. Plan is to make four and five lug. I only had three sets of five lug hubs. I think there is going to be a better market for 4 lug rotors wuth BMW 320i calipers modified for use with vented rotors.

Excellent answer
That's what I did

I think for 90% of the 914's out there, the stock system working correctly is great. It is us, the 10% that have scary fast cars that need more. Its a strange feeling when your at the end of a drag strip trying to slow down from 115 mph and see the end of the road come up fast and your car wont stop. When you get out of the car and see you rotors glowing, you know that you have maxed out your brakes.

I wouldn't have the patience you guys do. If I wasn't satisfied with my 4 lug brakes, I would upgrade to 5 lug. Yes it's going to be more expensive than waiting for a magic 4 lug conversion hub but you will have almost unlimited options to how big you want to go with off the shelf, bolt on parts.

Not only do big brakes give you ultimate stopping power but set up correctly, they provide modulation so different pressure on the pedal gives you different pressure to the pads. Something that doesn't always happen when you have to apply maximum pressure to lock up the brakes.

If you are maxing out your brakes from one drag racing pass you are doing something seriously wrong.
That would barely give them a workout compared to how I abuse my stock brakes on the track.

I brake about as hard as I can from 110 MPH (with 215 Hoosiers) on just one of 10 corners at the track, and do that for 20 minutes without stopping.
I have only detected brake fade a few times

It was more than one pass. I was tuning with nitrous, and finally got the car in the 11's. The brakes went south at about the fourth pass, scared myself a bit. A brake upgrade has been on the list since then.

Would the aluminum Brembo calipers from an old Alfa also fit?

I think so. i do not have any to test fit.

Then I still say you have something wrong.
Either the brakes are dragging, or you have fronts only working, etc.
One stop from 120 MPH to zero should make the rotors warm to the touch.
Then the time it takes to drive back to the line, restage, and go again and they would be cool to the touch again.
Laps at my track are only about 2.25 minutes so I repeat the 110 MPH to nearly zero every lap, and that is only one corner of 10. My brakes never get to the point of "glowing red hot".

Drag racing over & over as quickly as possible should not overheat these brakes even in 100% stock form.
Unless of course your car has 500 HP, and weighs 4000 lbs.

The physics just doesnt add up.
I'll calculate the energy dissipated and see.