So help me out here. I've accepted the fact that I'll probably be doing a 6 conversion next, and want to get all my ducks in a row, but I'm going to need some help from the peanut gallery...

I've read to buy the engine LAST...I can deal with that.

I've read to spent lots of time/energy on the body first....No problem.

But what about buying someone elses failed attempt? Hmmm...

Anyone know of a six-conversion that someone needs to get out from under? A good roller that I can start with? Am I going about this wrong?

I'm not even on the road with my 4cyl yet, but I want to plan for next winter. I want someone else to do the body this time. I'm REAL good at collecting parts...and putting things back together.

Thoughts?

Doug,

I finished last august a ground up resto on my 75..full strip and everything. I find my 1.8l too anemic. 1st and 2nd gear are fine but nothing in 3rd, 4th and 5th. I've been told by too many people that the best upgrade is a 3.2l motronic engine (forget the carbs..go motronic!). Guess this engine slides right in the easiest.

So, I'm starting the hunt for a 3.2 or a donor 911 (wrecked). Have the looks, have the handling..i just now need the power!

On topic..if been told do the incidentals first though....5 lug conversion...oil tank...gather all the parts...then get your engine. Plan on around 3.5k to 4k on incidentals needed (oil tank, mount bar, sheet metal, throttle linkage, oil lines etc.) then whatever you spend on an engine. There are a few members in here (in tennessee I think and texas) that sell conversion parts. GPR also sells about everything you need. Talk to a914guy, perrine? in here, and Dave at GPR parts.

My goal is to show up at the FFC with a 3.2l in the engine bay!...Oh, I've also been told you can save money by buying someone elses forgotten project...but for me most of the fun is in the project of building it itself..so, I'm going to be converting mine.

If you shop carefully you can get all the conversion parts for under $3k.

I did the whole thing for around $4k including the running 2.0 SIX.

This was the best decision I could have ever made.
The SIX is awesome.

Why buy the engine last? Find you a mill.
Some of the components you select will be appropriate to your motor. Engine mount, cooler, etc...

KT

I'll agree with Trekkors work. That car sounds and feels fantastic. Just idling it is waay smoother than a 4 and sounds pretty stout too!

I didn't know there was aright way......but it has cost a pile so far....just got the oil res, fly wheel , and remote oil cooler to buy....than I am going to sweet talk Root into coming to visit me for a week or so.....
When the project starts, depends on the running condition of the 3.0 I may do a topend on it first.....
Right or wrong is a matter of perspective.....at least thats what i have heard

I think I want to get the right tub first. I don't trust the one I have now to a six. This one will never be a 10pt car, and my knowledge at the time of restoration on a lot of issues was limited. It was a learning experience.

I know some of the parts, so I guess i'll start there. 5-lug, Oil pan, linkages... Then find the appropriate engine and get the rest from there...

I guess I need to line up a place that can media blast locally...that'd be a good move.

QUOTE (CptTripps @ May 4 2005, 06:41 AM)

I guess I need to line up a place that can media blast locally...that'd be a good move.

That would be an excellent move! Ask me how I know... Soda blasting is the current "state-of-the-art". Better than sand because it's water soluable. In other words, unlike sand, glass, walnut or other stuff, it dissolves. Definitely the way I would go the next time (if there is a next time).

If you want to do it the "right way", start talking to Rich Johnson. In fact, try a google search. He makes and provides conversion opeices and has done several top quality conversions. Rich's email is a914guy@aol.com Clay Perrine knows him quite well. Both are members here, but Rich rarely posts. Email is the best way to contact him. Your tastes may differ from Rich's, but by all accounts he provides excellent products and is a good guy to sart learning from.

Couplealinks:
http://www.914conversions.com/html/rich.html
http://www.914fan.net/rich-6.html

That's the kind of info I was looking for...

Thanks Mike...

Yeah, I use Rich's stuff for all my conversions...I also build my own oil lines, I use conevrsion fittings to AN off the oil tank. I use Kennedy for the conversion flywheels and buy the new clutch parts from them as well...

Nahhh, the right way to do it is bring it to my shop, tell me what you want, oh and leave the blank (signed) check on the desk!

So do I start putting out feelers for an engine now? Or wait till I get the rest of the stuff...

How much can I get BEFORE I decide on an engine? I'm not sold on one or another...2.0, 2.2, 2.7, 3.0...I've heard ALL KINDS of arguments on what engine to get, but I don't want that done here. I'm just looking for if there are 2-3 different ways I can go. Or which 'stuff' can I buy to keep my options open.

QUOTE (CptTripps @ May 4 2005, 09:26 AM)

How much can I get BEFORE I decide on an engine?

there are a couple of approximate decision points.
if you are going to track the car, plan on a front cooler.
at or over 2,7 plan on a front cooler.
somewhere around 3,0 start thinking about a 915.
over 3,2 the motor mounts changed.
somewhere around 200 HP you'll have trouble getting the power to the road with the tires that will fit under stock fenders so you have to think about traction. LSD? flares and big wheels ?
without monster-truck wheels, something 911S or A calipers front and some kind of rear brake upgrade will be about what you need.

those are the biggies, just off the top.
there are people here who have done 3,6's and there's something to be said for going with the biggest and pulling it off, but it looks like a bit more bother than it's worth to me. YMMV.

QUOTE (9146986 @ May 4 2005, 05:54 AM)

Nahhh, the right way to do it is bring it to my shop, tell me what you want, oh and leave the blank (signed) check on the desk!

At least he's honest...

Get the best engine you can afford. One with paperwork, one that is in the car so you drive it. Also consider what if any race class you want to compete in. The larger the bore the larger the cubic megabucks you will compete against.

If you don't care, get a bigun and just play. But unless you are a gud driver, a smaller motor will be the bigger giant killer as it forces you to be a better driver as opposed to just flooring the pedal in the straights....

QUOTE (pete-stevers @ May 3 2005, 10:14 PM)

I didn't know there was aright way......but it has cost a pile so far....just got the oil res, fly wheel , and remote oil cooler to buy....than I am going to sweet talk Root into coming to visit me for a week or so.....

My wife and I go to the Whistler weekend bash in August. Maybe around that time? Gotta remember to get our passports too!

It is really dependant on what sort of funds you have for the project. Can you do it for $4k, hell yeah, Trekkor did, I have tons of times. Can you do it for $10k, hell yeah. Just depends on how/where you get your parts from, what you use ect. The biggest single purchase would be the engine and I would actually get that FIRST because different engines can sometimes require different conversion parts. i.e. Flywheel and such.

Go find and engine.

QUOTE

It is really dependant on what sort of funds you have for the project.  Can you do it for $4k, hell yeah, Trekkor did, I have tons of times.  Can you do it for $10k, hell yeah.  Just depends on how/where you get your parts from, what you use ect.  The biggest single purchase would be the engine and I would actually get that FIRST because different engines can sometimes require different conversion parts.  i.e. Flywheel and such. Go find and engine.  ;)

If I had Doug's money, I'd burn mine.

I will be going down this same path this winter, well step one anyway. I have a three year plan, so this winter will be the 5 lug conversion & minor body work (rust repair in front trunk channel).

I too have the same questions about what engine to use. I have access to a complete 74 911 targa, but it hasn't ran in 5 years so engine condition is unknown. I might buy it and part it out and keep the fuchs, front suspension and if I can get the motor running that also.

The one thing I need to do before I do any of this is to plant that money tree in my back yard

QUOTE (CptTripps @ May 4 2005, 06:26 AM)

How much can I get BEFORE I decide on an engine? I'm not sold on one or another...2.0, 2.2, 2.7, 3.0...I've heard ALL KINDS of arguments on what engine to get, but I don't want that done here. I'm just looking for if there are 2-3 different ways I can go. Or which 'stuff' can I buy to keep my options open.

I think one of the better "small" engines you can get would be a 7R case 2.4 of some variant. They are inexpensive, generally removed for upgrades and have the later 5R or 7R cases. The 2.7's are good if you can find a healthy one, but seems like most of those you roll the dice.

If you have the $$$$ just about any 3.0 or 3.2 would be the ticket, but that is a rather big ticket.

914-6's I have owned (built others, these are just mine)

2.7S 72' red
2.2E 74' Silver
2.2E 76' Blue
2.0T 74' Black
2.2T 73' Orange
2.4ROW 73' Orange

My favorite was the 2.7 of course, but the 2.4ROW really surprised me. It was probably the cheapeset engine out of all of them which has made it the best bang for the buck by far.

Again, all about money, what do you have to spend?

QUOTE (itsa914 @ May 4 2005, 06:57 AM)

I will be going down this same path this winter, well step one anyway. I have a three year plan, so this winter will be the 5 lug conversion & minor body work (rust repair in front trunk channel). I too have the same questions about what engine to use. I have access to a complete 74 911 targa, but it hasn't ran in 5 years so engine condition is unknown. I might buy it and part it out and keep the fuchs, front suspension and if I can get the motor running that also. The one thing I need to do before I do any of this is to plant that money tree in my back yard

Keep me in mind for the motor....

Personally, I think the $4K conversion is the exception not the rule. Trekor's engine could have easily been a smokey core requiring $4K in rebuilding. Trekor also did a lot of fabrication. I applaud his efforts. He put that thing together in short order. I encourage anyone to read Trekor's and Root's six conversion topics. They do a lot of fabrication in order to do a conversion on the cheap. It obviously takes a lot of time.

Personally, I'd be more of an off the shelf type conversion guy. Spending tens of hours to fabricate a part and save $300 isn't worth it to me.

Engines: personally, I don't think I'd buy a used engine unless it was in a car and I could test drive it and get it compression and leakdown tested. Even with all that you could be looking at broken head studs on a big 911 engine 3 months after you install it. These engines are expensive to repair and if you get unlucky get ready to add $3-4K to your conversion project.

Final point of wisdom - just buy a six - conversion or real. It's way easier and more cost effective.

Let's see...last one "I" did.

$2500 for a 2.0 "S" motor, complete with carbs
$ 250 for the tank,
100 for repairs..pinholes
450 for engine mount, mounts and fasteners
400 for headers
400 for aeroquip lines, fittings and adapters
200 for New Bursch muff
300 misc stuff....

$4600.....

Engine had a fresh top end....tub was prepped with five lug and Carrera brakes......I got a "rebate" for having the four cylinder rebuilt and selling it.....so my "net" costs are considerably lower.

QUOTE

Final point of wisdom - just buy a six - conversion or real. It's way easier and more cost effective

Thats another thought...but this is more fun...and that's all I'm really concerned about.

Food for thought: If everybody just bought them, there wouldn't be any to buy.

There's a solid malaga red roller in the classifieds.. In LA tho.. maybe you could get a bulk rate on shipping 914s from CA to Ohio.

INHO, it doesn't get MORE "right" than Rich's car...


it's nice in pics , but UNBELIEVEABLE in person!!

QUOTE ("Z" @ May 4 2005, 07:54 AM)

Let's see...last one "I" did. $2500 for a 2.0 "S" motor, complete with carbs $ 250 for the tank, 100 for repairs..pinholes 450 for engine mount, mounts and fasteners 400 for headers 400 for aeroquip lines, fittings and adapters 200 for New Bursch muff 300 misc stuff.... $4600..... Engine had a fresh top end....tub was prepped with five lug and Carrera brakes......I got a "rebate" for having the four cylinder rebuilt and selling it.....so my "net" costs are considerably lower.

That isn't a bad deal at all either. I think that is also a good example of how things can come together without spending too much.

The 2.4 I bought from Geoff for $1k, I put oil fed tensioners on it and will need to spend $100 on carb tune up kits for it. I rolled the dice on it and got lucky. Engine is in great shape. So I will be into it for around $1500-1600 or so (engine only of course).

QUOTE

That isn't a bad deal at all either.

That's a steal. An S engine with carbs and a fresh top end should be selling for a lot more. Geoff's engine was an unknown quantity right? It could have easily needed a rebuild. It seem slike the only way you can do these cheap conversion is with a fair bit of luck on the engine purchase.

I bought that engine and a long block 2.2 from Glenn Sager's shop...so I got a deal on the both of them.

Ya just have to be able to pull the trigger when good priced motors come up.

QUOTE

$ 250 for the tank, 100 for repairs..pinholes 450 for engine mount, mounts and fasteners 400 for headers 400 for aeroquip lines, fittings and adapters 200 for New Bursch muff 300 misc stuff....

Z, I'm comparing your list to Brad's. What did you do about the following:

engine tin
flywheel
clutch
bell crank kit

Oooppsie....tin I forgot about....add 300, I bought f/g repros

Flywheel and clutch were compatible as the motor had it in it....and the early 911 motors used a 901 trans....

I recently bought a bell crank unit from Root Werks...not installed yet... but I did a working modification with the stock cable and changed the geometry on the throttle linkage.

It works but it ain't pretty. Never track tested....now that I'm a little less cash poor....I am gonna get Manfred on the track and run it...since none of you cheapies wanna buy it...I'm gonna go thrash....err test it and run it.

Like others have stated the Engine purchase is the one that can bite you, Good deal ? Documentation, oil leaks , comp./ leakdown , hear it run.
Dan root has been really lucky lately with his motors,(I sold him one) Trekkor had more info on his.

old 911 engines can leak oil in a lot of places, not mention shoddy workmanship ,valve job ,rebuild, that will cost you a bunch later.

I just bought a 2.7S weber carbs,ignitor,early 911 exhaust, runs good ,oil seepage. 2k

"S" motor can mean alot of things , Another thing to be careful of (Z knows the guy though)

QUOTE

Ya just have to be able to pull the trigger when good priced motors come up.

Be Patient , Buyer beware

QUOTE (sixnotfour @ May 4 2005, 12:09 PM)

I just bought a 2.7S weber carbs,ignitor,early 911 exhaust...

if that was for a 914 conversion, i'm probably in the market for early 911 exhaust...
if you're in make-a-deal mode, contact me offlist and we'll compare lists...

QUOTE ("Z" @ May 4 2005, 08:51 AM)

I recently bought a bell crank unit from Root Werks...not installed yet... but I did a working modification with the stock cable and changed the geometry on the throttle linkage. It works but it ain't pretty. Never track tested....now that I'm a little less cash poor....I am gonna get Manfred on the track and run it...since none of you cheapies wanna buy it...I'm gonna go thrash....err test it and run it.

Pop it in, you'll like it. Nice smooth linear pedal travel.

Yeah Jeff, Been pretty lucky with my used engine dice roll'in for a while now.

QUOTE (Root_Werks @ May 4 2005, 10:02 AM)

QUOTE ("Z" @ May 4 2005, 08:51 AM) I recently bought a bell crank unit from Root Werks...not installed yet... but I did a working modification with the stock cable and changed the geometry on the throttle linkage.   It works but it ain't pretty.  Never track tested....now that I'm a little less cash poor....I am gonna get Manfred on the track and run it...since none of you cheapies wanna buy it...I'm gonna go thrash....err test it and run it. Pop it in, you'll like it. Nice smooth linear pedal travel. Yeah Jeff, Been pretty lucky with my used engine dice roll'in for a while now.

I need to find the rod for the top of the engine to the linkage...it's in a box somewhere....

okay you conversion guys...

once before i posted an engine/transmission package but evidently nobody was interested in reselling me the induction and the transmission. oh well...

here EBay Item #7971241873 is a 3,0 and 915 with a B-I-N of $4750 - in Chicago.

if i can't pull off the deal for the 915 i'm looking at (my bid is under the reserve but about what i figure it's worth...) i might be looking at the 915 portion of this deal. that'd result in a pretty low cost running 3,0 with updated tensioners...

Rich...I would be interested in the motor. Can we get someone to verify that the studs are OK and it has compression?

OK, Chicago people - the ball is in your court now...

i'm really hoping i can wind up with the gearbox i'm bidding on now, but i think he wants too much; we may know something in another few hours...

update - i bid it up enough to discover the reserve price, so unless he flakes on me, i'm committed... still hafta get it up from FL to PA tho. or i could get outbid in the next 4 hrs, in which case, i've already bid all i'm gonna...

he does also have a 2,7 with a fresh MotorMeister rebuild for $6k... (Item #7971071951)

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ May 4 2005, 12:46 PM)

. he does also have a 2,7 with a fresh MotorMeister rebuild for $6k... (Item #7971071951)

Isn't that an oxymoron?

That's cheap for a 3.0 and a 915. I'd be all over that if it was local to me and I could PPI it.

QUOTE (J P Stein @ May 4 2005, 05:31 PM)

QUOTE (ArtechnikA @ May 4 2005, 12:46 PM) . he does also have a 2,7 with a fresh MotorMeister rebuild for $6k... (Item #7971071951) Isn't that an oxymoron?

i didn't say it was a "good" rebuild - just "fresh"

MM actually did the 915, too, but in this case, i think their reputation for doing as little as possible should be a good thing - since there shouldn't have been as much to screw up...

it's all something of a crapshoot anyway. the transmission i've got now is definitely worn out, and the clutch is on the ragged edge between incomplete release and slip - i've gotta do something, and with the 2,7 a 915 is the right thing to do anyway. if it needs attention "some day" - well - the Type 911 was going to need attention REAL SOON and i'd rather be putting the money into a 915 than the 911.

i am gonna need an electric speedo tho. the closet rice boy in me wants to install a 300 Km/H speedo from a Canadian Turbo....

Yah...."fresh"= opposite of spoiled, rotten, moldy,yada....

Then there are terms like "fresh roadkill"....which in this case would prolly be more appropiate.

BTW...in the classifieds there is a Patrick motor mount for $250....and Rich Johnson has his on sale....

Negative on the patrick racing firewall mount. I just nabbed it.

Nice avatar numbnutz....

What are you gonna use it on?

i cant see my avatar. aaron said he was going to change it, but since i cant see it, i have no idea if theres anything there.

Ok, in the interest of 'knowing'...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...&category=33615

Would that be a good engine?

probably.

you will need to replace or mod the oil cooler.
you will need to mod the exhaust valve covers.
you will need to replace the flywheel (he says it's set up for 915).

i'm already set to go down my path or i might be interested.
go for it. i expect it'll get bid up a bit over its current $1500 level...

I'm just trying to get my head around everything...

That 3.0 with the 915 tranny would be great, but I'm not ready yet...want to get all my ducks in a row first.

Nothing wrong with a good 901...

QUOTE ("Z" @ May 5 2005, 06:23 AM)

Nothing wrong with a good 901...

901's can take more hp/tq than most people think. You just can't be dumping the clutch on them all the time.

QUOTE (CptTripps @ May 5 2005, 08:45 AM)

That 3.0 with the 915 tranny would be great, but I'm not ready yet...

i'm only interested in the 915 because i want it for the 911, where it is an easy upgrade, and because it's intended to live behind a fairly healthy 2,8.

i'd have no qualms running a 901/914 in a 914 with anything up to 3,2 or so.
modding a 915 for midengine use is neither cheap nor easy, done right, but it drops into a 911 like it was made for it (duh :-) ...)

QUOTE (CptTripps @ May 5 2005, 06:34 AM)

Ok, in the interest of 'knowing'... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...&category=33615 Would that be a good engine?

It probably would be a fine engine if it was built right. It all comes down to who did the machining, who built it, are there receipts, a warranty, etc. I've heard enough ebay horror stories that I wouldn't pay this guy major coin for his engine because:


1) I don't know him or his reputation
2) regardless of what he says the engine is untested and an unknown quantity
3) no compression and leakdown figures (he could do that without installing it in a car)


Treat any engine that you can't have personally tested as a core requiring a full rebuild.