Got the 123Ignition yesterday, I pushed all of my projects back!
"Sorry granny I'll get to those bearings on your heart/lung machine soon, I promise."
Blocked out 3 hours for the removal and install.
Added about an hour to charge the battery.
Installed as expected, there is a spacer that is necessary for type 4, just slides over the dizzy shaft.
I decided to route the wires and vacuum away from the fan so access to the vacuum nipple was easier, since the vacuum can is gone there's a lot more space.
Followed the instructions but made the mistake of using the TDC 0* instead of the 27* as the basic timing point. I just walked the dizzy CCW until she started!
Didn't do anything other than matched my timing with my idle, I let her run till she settled down.
Just around the block once, ha ha the trailer hitching is GONE!
Responsive throttle, man!
Setting up a tuning session, nice 150 mile run up the California coast with the AFR meter.
Mike

Congratulations. good to hear.

What was the distributor that you replaced with the 123?

205A

HaHa...

Nice!
What's your engine, induction system?

Really liked my 1 2 3. Did you get the programmable one?

I found the indicator on the switch exceptionally difficult to be sure which setting was selected but other than that it was flawless. I have the one with the electronic trigger points!

'74 D-Jet with matching bits.

Been running my 123 dist. for about a year now, money well spent, 76 D Jet 2056.

This has been on my want list for a while now.

Wheres the best place to get one?

I bought mine from the manufacturer.

bought mine at 123ignitionusa.com

Authorized USA retailer.

I'm limited to the D-Jet version, after putting all the facts together I used the "B" setting 174 011 with vacuum retard only.

I don't see any way to determine what to get unless you map the original dizzy to the setting?

I'd get this if I ever have to replace trigger points.

Now for the ugly.

I am Sorry, I am SORRY, I AM SORRY!

And now I have to take her out to dinner. My bad.


I had my wife help with timing the engine.
Roughly a five hand job, our four didn't do to well. Lots of screaming and nashing of teeth, hence the dinner out.

But that was this morning, let's go back to yesterday.

I got the itch to take it for a ride, something short just buzz the freeway a bit.

Not a good idea.
She seemed to run ok at the start, cold engine, but I hit the highway and up to 3k and a lot of ping. OK keep it under 3k and just cruise.

But as the engine got hotter she ran worse, felt like a short or loose wire in the FI or ignition.

OK take her home, dame now I'm in bumper to bumper traffic, this is karma, I should have greased Nana bearings.

Got the car home and gave up for the night.

Come Saturday morning all things new and fresh!

"I'll get to those squeaky bearings today Gramm, I promise"


"Honey pie, can you help me with the car?"
I said to the wife, she knew something was up.

It's simple, you just have to hold the tach at 3500 rpm and listen for me to say stop!

"What was the word to stop?"

Stop sweety!


Well after about a half hour of screaming STOP, now go, STOP, no go!
Some neighbors gathered wispering and pointing at the crazy couple yelling STOP, now go.


My wife was mad.
I got the timing set.


After promising dinner out, I took the car for a short run on the freeway.
OK wack the throttle, no ping! But as the rpms go up I feel a hesitation, sort of.
It feels like a short, loose connector, plug wire, same as yesterday.

OK back home, look for the loose connection.


Looking at the install manual I see the spec page on the inside cover.
As I scan down I see the temp specs, "?"
-30*C to 95*C

OK -30*C is not going to happen here in Los Angeles but 95*C is about 195*F which is the oil temp my car likes to produce on an up hill run.
Have I found the Achillie's heel of this device?
OK above the Artic Circle but here at "almost the equator" we got issues.
I'll keep you posted.

Mine likes to run around 210 on the oil...

OK so I am going through the ignition wiring, the wire on cyl # 2 is pulled away from the spark plug connector about 1/4 inch, ah ha, this could be the reason for the miss.

"Granny I'll be back in a few, just need to get some gas and put a few miles on the car to see if it's running ok. Wow she has finaly quieted down."

5 gallons premium and off to the 118 freeway. Oil temp still cool, running nice accelerates smoothly.

Oil temps coming up, freeway speed 80mph, as I look at the oil temp gauge, 185*F, just about 8 miles and....

something changed, loosing power, missing.

Pull over, check wiring. Cyl #4 spark plug connector, disconnected completely.
Reconnect and we're off again.

Few miles feels ok, then, the same missing, losing power. Plug wire came off again?

Pull over and wires seem fine.
looking closer I see the vacuum line has come loose from the dizzy, lets try again.

That didn't help much it has the same strange missing, sort of a intermittent connection.

I give up for now.

Maybe a coil that's on its way out? Mine behaved the same as you describe. Replaced with a new one and all was well...

Ive got the 123 for my Bmw2002. I have yet to put it in, but I'm excited about it.

For yours on your car, you can tune these beyond just setting the timing. Actually get mapping and can reset the curve to get the most out of your ignition. My guess is that you have a little tuning to do.

Also, the operating temps should not be a concern. I think the -30C to 95C is ambient temps, not engine oil temps. The ignition module is on the cool side of the engine tins, and it was designed for the more cramped bug engine bay. That said, contact 123. See what they have to say. From what I have read on the BMW forums, their people are really helpful. If I did not already have crankfire on my 914, I'd be getting one of these unites for my 914 too.

Zach

Also been running a 123 on my 2270 dual-carbed Raby motor since January. It's been fantastic- rock solid, performs great. Putting one on my '70 Datsun 240Z next.

So the miss I find is a loose injector connector, yeah remember D-Jet connectors.

I've been taking the car on 20 to 30 mile test runs, dealing with ambiant temps and fuel octane.

There has been a real Jeckell and Hyde situation, one run good and strong, another lots of ping and no power at WOT.

I started to lean to the temp issue. Until yesterday, we had 99 to 102* F I took the car for an 80 mile run through a few stressing circumstances.

After 6 miles, engine not even up to running temps she felt like, I've heard the English use the term "lumpy."

I was heading into a downhill section of the 14 FWY north, I pushed the throttle to max, she responded.

From that point on she was Jeckell! The temps outside were brutal, but as long as I was hitting 85 most of the time the breeze was nice.

Since the loose injector wire I've done nothing under the hood except adjust the idle using the air bypass screw, which has been varying from 600 to 1300 RPM. So after reading another 123 post, I will start expermenting with removing the retard vacuum line. I had a problem with low idle with the headlights on, doesn't help the lightend flywheel any.

Here is where I start to examine the fuel issue. After an internet search for Summer/Winter fuel blend info. Did you know that they add butane to gasoline in the summer months.

My normal fuel is not the best gas ever, so I suspect this might be the issue.

I found some 100 octane "race fuel" at a Sonoco station in Pasadena.
I have been mixing that with the 91 octane. By blending both fuels I been able to find a point that makes the car run without pinging.
Yesterdays blend was about 94 octane. Even with stressing the engine with full throttle uphill acceleration no pinging. I did hear a singular ping on occasion, seemed to happen between off throttle and WOT at 3500 to 4000 RPM.
Oil temps never went over 215* F.


Next I will burn off the 94 octane and use a high quality 91 octane.
When I get what I consider a stable ignition I will begin checking the FI with the AFR meter.
Stay tuned.

Sounds like you are well on the way.
I hate electrical gremlins. So hard to track and fix.

The low idle with headlights - did you fix that? That will not be helping you tune, and could be part of your issue. Could be dirty grounds (or dirty contacts raising resistance in your wire harness). If thats the issue, it could be pervasive.

Have you considered taking the car to a dyno and having it tuned there? I was very slow to accept this, and Mark opened my eyes to it. I'm so sold on it now.

Zach

We all have a need to see.

Click to view attachment

Don't know why they are 90* off in the post but correct when viewing the image alone.
Here is the 123Porsche-4-R-V-IE advance selection port.


Click to view attachment

FYI type 4 needs a spacer which should come with the unit.

Shaft on the Bosch unit is not as long as the 123 hence the spacer.

Click to view attachment

Hey they look right on my dam phone!

Cool, thanks for the pictures. So now I know it's advance curve "b" when mine arrives


I've had that happen to me a couple of times in the last few weeks . Need to figure out what the "trick" is (e.g., getting those little "boots" over the injectors...?)

Hey BeatNavy,
I might change the curve after I do some more research and remove the retard vacuum line.

Use the boots, if you got them. The original style has pull tabs on either side of the boot. Newer Bowsby style doesn't have the tabs, but the rubber is newer and much more supple.

I took her out for an early spin on Saturday, 68*F ran like "Jeckell" BOY HOUDY...

Using up the last 3 gals of the 94 octane, mostly 14 fwy, 85 mph uphill

I decided to remove the vacuum retard hose and cap the throttle body, I did have idle issues. I tried to get the best balance between day and night, driving lights off and on.

I seem to have an issue with "hot start," five to ten minutes in a store to pick up something and wham.
My usual procedure is to press the throttle and feed some air, but that was not working. Getting the engine to start was a bit more difficult. I needed to floor the accelorator pedal holding it until the engine fired and than feathering the pedal so the engine wouldn't stall, not what I call ideal. But after a minute or two a stable idle.

Ok after a good 60 + mile ride, time for fuel. Second Wind sugested Chevron premium 91 octane, as a good quality gas, so 8 gals of 91, outside temps low 80's*F.
Out of the station and right onto the freeway on ramp, and floored the accelorator and wham, ping, lots of it!

So immediately there is a change, it is directly related to the octane of the fuel.
Next test is to drive in a lower temperature environment to see it the ping is present at mid 60's*F.
I'm going to wait till the moisture clears up a bit here in Los Angeles as a storm moves through.


What I may need here is some advise as to what I can do to run without ping using pump fuel.
I'm in L.A. it's a good 30 mile trek to get some of the 100 octane "race fuel" and real fuel additives as octane boosters are not to be found on the shelves of the general flaps.

Of course the obvious is to reduce the timing a bit.

On the 1,2,3 I found that the cap could move around a bit and add a few degrees of timing to the problem just by knocking it about. Something to check for sure.

Also may want to check your compression to be sure that you have equal values across.

Seems the clips holding the cap on are not as "beefy" as a stock Bosch unit.

I don't seem to understand why reducing advance would help with ping other then the engine not running as hot?
I think that changing the advance curve might be a better option than detuning the engine? Simply a selection on the 123 dizzy.

If the car did not ping with the stock distributor I would suspect the 123 unit is programmed more aggressively or just too much timing along of the curve.

Have you verified the advance with a timing light? A programmable timing light with RPM read out can help you determine where your at now through out the rpm range. The high octane will compensate for too much advance but at a high cost and inconvenience.

VP Racing Fuels on Western Ave and PCH sells race gas in any configuration you would want.

Have you verified fuel pressure? checking AFR would also be a good idea as you might be too lean which could lead to ping.

I am curious as was there ping before the 123 unit?

Early spark is the most common cause. Cylinder pressure rises too rapidly.

i agree that your timing has to be off but also you should not have to be running 100 octane in a stock motor. the original designers of this motor intended 87 octane fuel in a stock motor.
you need correct fuel- pinging is pre-ignition- the fuel is igniting before it should before or after, it is supposed to, when the piston is in the perfect position. So go back to the correct fuel and re set your timing. i had these same issues when i first got my car I did the same thing- and a big part of it was thst other than timing, and vac leaks, the car was running too lean- it ended up being the MPS was rebuilt but not retuned- once i had a AF meter i was able to fet the mps set correctly and then, no more pinging-

Our cars run on regular fuel. Unless modified, they shouldn’t even need premium. Race gas is for race engines. Way too expensive to run on the street. Something is really wrong if that’s the solution.

When you change a part that affects timing and you then get pinging, it's pretty obvious that you need to readjust the timing.

The fuel octane subject has been beat to death around here. Look it up. Unless you have a high compression engine, running fuel with higher octane than regular is a waste of money and has the wrong burn rate.

Have you verified fuel pressure? checking AFR would also be a good idea as you might be too lean which could lead to ping.

Hey Pete,
the lid is coming along nicely, I just need some more sunny days.

The programmable timing light should be a good test, but that would be a six hand operation on a 914! I need to get enough friends together at one time to try it.

Fuel pressure is verified, but on the list of things to check again like compression.

Ping seemed to be and issue whenever the seasons changed. I would reduce the timing and feel the loss of power, until I switched the vacuum can to an adjustable one. I would loosen the lock nut and turn the adjustment screw in or out, increasing or decreasing the advance as needed.

What I am looking for in the 123 is a curve that might activate slightly later on the rpm scale or fewer degrees of advance, I believe the '74 D-Jet is 22* advance at 3000 rpm. This is where the TUNE + would be a great tool, if I could limit the max advance to 19* while keeping mid range at max advance.

I Rebuilt this dizzy when I built the motor about 15k miles ago.


Click to view attachment

Ok this engine is not stock.

Click to view attachment



J&E forged pistons, nickie cylinders, 9550 cam and valve train kit.
H rods, lightened and counterweighted crank, 8.3:1 compression ratio.
Lightened flywheel, built by me, D Jet tuned by me.

Not sure this is helpful but attached is the curve for the stock dizzy. Note that everything is show as 1/2 of the value.

Click to view attachment

This corresponds to the 123 chart of showing a max of 22 degrees advance for the 914 dizzy.

I struggled with this 22 vs 27 degrees but it makes sense as at idle your timing would have to be a certain number of degrees BTDC so the re is no need for 27 degrees of advance in the dizzy.

I would suspect that at times you are running leaner that you would like and the high octane worked with your build to keep it from pinging.

If your MPS is adjustable, I would try making it richer by loosening the inner screw alone. While this will make both the Part-Load Mixture Full-Load Mixture richer, it may have an impact on the pinging at standard advance settings. Of course, the only way to tell if it is lean is by having a AFR.

For my 2056 I found the D-jet required a good deal of change to make it run richer to get optimal performance.

Ok nothing has changed, I did nothing to the car except start it up.
Jeckell is back, took a 40+ mile run up the 14 fwy and back, not a single ping!

Outside temp is 66*F with humidity of 75%

Same Chevron gas, didn't add or change anything.

So I don't believe it is a problem with timing, I don't believe it's a problem with lean mixture.

It is definitely a problem with fuel and temperature.

This could be an issue with the Temp Sensor I or as I suspect, ambient temps above 80*F with the current Winter/Summer fuel blend.

So the 123 Ignition is so spot on it will bring all of the faults within your system to light!

I would tend to agree. I chased a miss for quite some time. Even thought it was bad gas. Turned out to be the coil. Get a Bosch Blue (Brazil) not Mexico made
Ed

I just ordered a new Bosch (Blue) coil, new plugs, and new wires. After the install this weekend, and settling (for now) on the proper advance curve setting, I am still having issues with very difficult restarts. Starts no issue when cold. But if you kill it and even try an immediate restart it's a chore (if it will start at all). I still need to verify timing on the new curve setting, but I'm hoping those new ignition components will resolve that issue.

Might want to take a look at Post #171 in this thread: Post #171

about 3 gallon of techron 91 left in the tank, took it out for a run down the 5 fwy with the wife.
72*F humidity 70% partly cloudy 24 mile run, toward the end a slight up hill, oil temps at 185*F I could hear pinging at full throttle, Hyde just poking his head out.

At this point I think I am sold on the plugged retard vacuum line, I have a pretty steady idle at 1050 rpm, headlights have an effect but not as pronounced as using the vacuum retard.

This is a '74 D-Jet so the throttle body has the single vacuum nipple, so no vacuum advance.

I am having the more pronounced "hot start" issue, my solution, at startup WOT, as she fires I reduce the peddle input but not so much to stall the engine, idle will be way to low for the first 30 seconds, so I just feather the throttle till the idle stablizes.


Also this engine has the blue coil.

Running on the last 2 gallons of the Chevron, I decided to try the Shell product Nitro+??
5 gallons, I set off on the 5 north and an instant later she is Hyde, pings no power above 3000 rpm oil temps start to rise 200*F.
Ambiant temps in Los Angeles 73*F humidity at 20%.

I was saving this test for higher temps but here goes.
I pull the connector from the Temp Sensor I in the intake plenum. Idle drops, because of the rich condition, I readjust the idle using the air screw.

I take her back out on the 210 fwy, JECKELL is BACK, up hill WOT power and no ping, I drive about 20 miles 85 to 90 mph, oil temps never cracked 190*F.

So I can see at this point that throwing fuel at the problem has an instant effect.

OK so I see and AFR meter secession in my future.