How does your car handle with that big motor? Notice a big difference in handling due to extra weight or higher center of gravity?


Stephane

if you have never driven a 914 and a V8 car is your 1st one, you'll never know the differance in additional weight.....


now if on Sat you drove your /4, and then installed a V8 engine that night and drove your car on Sunday, yes, you'll notice the change, but it's not enough to ruin the experiance........

in theory the lighter car should handle better...........

My lowered, front sway equiped, 6 in front, 7 in rear (or is it 7 & 8?) handles like a dream. Sticks like glue UNLESS I'm too heavy on the throttle in a turn, which will quickly break the rear loose. Tough to think of that as bad though.

QUOTE (Mueller @ May 26 2005, 03:59 PM)

if you have never driven a 914 and a V8 car is your 1st one, you'll never know the differance in additional weight..... now if on Sat you drove your /4, and then installed a V8 engine that night and drove your car on Sunday, yes, you'll notice the change, but it's not enough to ruin the experiance........ in theory the lighter car should handle better...........

you can put a 50lb bag of sand in each of your trunks, have a 200lb passenger and see if you notice the difference...

Like Mike said, you'd have to drive both in comparable cars. Alot of the V8 guys built on non-runners including myself so we don't have a baseline. Generally if you're installing a V8 there are many suspension improvements as well.

A 300 lb overall increase due to a V8 conversion seems a bit high to me.

Only 8 cars I have driven neglected to do the stuff I have done to my six conversions....I've never ridden or driven one that's been prepped to the degree that "I" would be satisfied.

That said....the extra 300lbs can be written off...IF....the suspension has some attention to it....

QUOTE (914GT @ May 26 2005, 08:23 PM)

A 300 lb overall increase due to a V8 conversion seems a bit high to me.

I have to agree, 300 seems like a high figure, I dont think it is that much. On top of that, would someone post the weight of a six conversion please? I am to the understanding that it is only about 80 pounds heavier than a 6 conversion. Porsche 6 that is. The engines are quite heavy. And by the time you add all the stuff to go with it, there isnt that much difference.

a six has an oil tank and aluminum or magnesium case.

a v8 convo has a big engine bar, a big iron block and heads, and a big radiator up front....


and the weight of all that water

It is not as much as you would think. If you use aluminum heads the engine doesnt weigh as much as you think. I think it is only about 535 pounds. How much does a 6 weigh?

I found it, this is copied from Rod Simpsons website.

The Chevy V8 with cast iron heads weighs 490 lbs. The 930 engine weighs 510 lbs. The standard Porsche 911 engine weighs 410 lbs. You can shave approx 50 more lbs off your Chevy by using aluminum heads.

So I was wrong about the weight, its lighter than I thought.

2.4L is 400 lbs. But remember, it has a much lower center of mass (the engine) because the heads, pistons, and crank are all very low compared to a V8, and a (real) six doesnt have a radiator and water running through it, so that saves weight too.

cool.

One more thing to keep in mind:

The overall weight is significant to a car's handling, but also its distribution of weight is important. The increase of mass in the dead center of the car isnt as significant as increasing weight on the outsides. Since the 914 is mid engined, its distance from the center of mass to the center of the engine mass is relativly small leaving a small moment. What this means; an increase in weight of the engine of a 914 is not AS significant as increasing weight in a 911/912, or any front engine car.

The same rules apply for all 3 axes though. So if you increase center of mass in the Z direction (up from the ground), with the same suspension geometry you're going to have more dive on your suspension.

QUOTE (MattR @ May 26 2005, 10:21 PM)

2.4L is 400 lbs. But remember, it has a much lower center of mass (the engine) because the heads, pistons, and crank are all very low compared to a V8, and a (real) six doesnt have a radiator and water running through it, so that saves weight too.

But the weight distribution is different also, you add all that weight to the back only with a 6 conversion but with the V8, you add weight front and rear keeping the balance more than the 6. I am sure someone has the figures somewhere. I am not going to get into a pissin match with you about it. Lets just get the cars out on the road and see the difference. My little 914 with the little old small block in it againts your 2.4 liter 6 cylinder that only weighs 400 pounds. We could even stop at the scales and weigh the cars to see just where we are at in that department. Then we could get some actual numbers on weight. Since none of us have them currently, we really shouldnt be talking about what is only heresay at this point.

its settled. type 4 baby

QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ May 26 2005, 09:34 PM)

its settled. type 4 baby

nice avatar

Having converted mine, I (at first) had problems with it Not being able to stick, and having way to much understeer...

I dont have that problem now...

It will feel amazing when you finally get it to stick.

Just drive it around with 1/16th throttle and it will be a t4... Thats what I did at the WCC....

Andrew

Everything Im saying comes out of a series of text books. Take it for what its worth.

Im not going to argue a v8 914 handles well enough or anything, thats all driver preference. If you're asking theoretically which one handles better I can help, but I have no hard data to back up my claims.

Obviously the 4 will handle better....

But the question is is it noticable enough, or takes away from the handling enough for it to be noticable enough that a v8 is not a "914" or something....


I dont think its enough difference that it takes away from the 914 aspect...

I love going into a corner and powersliding out.. Or not!

Andrew

Here is a copy of a thread from the Pors-chev group about engine weight. I know this is a all aluminum LS1 V8 vs a 3.0 six.

I have seen this issue pop up on this forum from time to time well,

I finally got an answer to this myth.

I took the time today to take my 1980 911 3.0 SC engine and 2000 GM LS1
Corvette engine to the scales to weigh them and this is what I found
out:

My fully dressed 1980 3.0 Porsche engine ready to install weighed 472
lbs. Factor in the weight of the oil in the 10 quart oil tank needed to
support the 3.0 engine, then your engine plus oil tank weight jumps up
to 490. 5 lbs. at the rear of thevehicle.

(One gallon of oil is 7.4 lbs. Ten quarts is 2.5 gallons, 2.5 x 7.4 =
18.5lbs.)

My fully dressed 2000 LS1 Corvette engine ready to install with the
engine computer and wire harness, complete exhaust system, engine
mounting brackets, AC compressor, alternator, custom water pump adapter,
transmission adapter plate and flywheel weighed 434 lbs. This is a rear
vehicle weight savings of 56 lbs. over the Porsche 3.0 engine.

I did not weigh the above engines with the transaxle or clutch assembly
bolted to either engine. These parts would be used for both
installations and their weights would obviously cancel.

Just wanted to share this information with you guys.

ToyJet.


Bob

And to kill off myth #608 about V8s, the RH engine bar is nearly identical to a stock tail shifter bar, except for two hollow upright pieces that probably weigh less than 2 lbs total.

As far as the "center of gravity" being higher on a V8, a 350 does have some of its mass higher than a flat 6, but it also has a nearly equall amount of mass lower than a flat 6 due to the shape of the block. Thus, any potential rotational force on the Z axis would be nulled out.

The cast iron bar seems to weigh almost the same as the tube steel V8 bar, just by going out and picking one up from my junkpile. Sometime when I'm bored I might compare them on a scale.

QUOTE (BIGKAT_83 @ May 27 2005, 02:05 AM)

Here is a copy of a thread from the Pors-chev group about engine weight. I know this is a all aluminum LS1 V8 vs a 3.0 six. I have seen this issue pop up on this forum from time to time well, I finally got an answer to this myth. I took the time today to take my 1980 911 3.0 SC engine and 2000 GM LS1 Corvette engine to the scales to weigh them and this is what I found out: My fully dressed 1980 3.0 Porsche engine ready to install weighed 472 lbs. Factor in the weight of the oil in the 10 quart oil tank needed to support the 3.0 engine, then your engine plus oil tank weight jumps up to 490. 5 lbs. at the rear of thevehicle. (One gallon of oil is 7.4 lbs. Ten quarts is 2.5 gallons, 2.5 x 7.4 = 18.5lbs.) My fully dressed 2000 LS1 Corvette engine ready to install with the engine computer and wire harness, complete exhaust system, engine mounting brackets, AC compressor, alternator, custom water pump adapter, transmission adapter plate and flywheel weighed 434 lbs. This is a rear vehicle weight savings of 56 lbs. over the Porsche 3.0 engine. I did not weigh the above engines with the transaxle or clutch assembly bolted to either engine. These parts would be used for both installations and their weights would obviously cancel. Just wanted to share this information with you guys. ToyJet. Bob

I think the comparison should be with a typical basic all iron block and head V8 used in most conversions. If we want to go overboard, you can use a Donovan all aluminum block to trim more weight but how many cars have it or the LS1 installed and running, maybe two or three? How many have paid for aluminum heads to save a ~80lbs? How many added weight with a cage or chassis stiffening?

Matt has a good point, we can weigh the parts to put this to bed. The V8 transforms the car and it's handling characterisics. Why nitpick which is "better" since you can watch a race track or autocross and see where a V8 or 4 cyl. each has their advantages?

I would guess the added extra 200 to 300 hp makes for more of a change in the handling than the extra 200 lbs on a all iron block sbc conversion.

Bob

QUOTE (BIGKAT_83 @ May 27 2005, 09:37 AM)

I would guess the added extra 200 to 300 hp makes for more of a change in the handling than the extra 200 lbs on a all iron block sbc conversion. Bob

ayup

When I get my LT1 conversion done I will be weighing it, front and rear. (Iron block, aluminum heads and intake)

What do you think the giant tires that a v8 needs does to the handling?

QUOTE (Rider914 @ May 27 2005, 07:17 PM)

What do you think the giant tires that a v8 needs does to the handling?

another mis-understanding.....you don't have to have 12" wide tires just 'cause you have a 400hp V8....plenty of 914's with tons of power running 205 and 225 sized tires...Scott @ Renegade used to only run 7" wide rims on "Peel"......


yes, the factory added GT flares to the race cars, but remember tire technology is far better today than it was 30 years ago....

I have had both, a 4cyl and now a v8 car.
I had a stock, factory swaybars, 76 2.0, 80k miles with original shocks.
I now have a 74 v8 with 300lb rear springs, 27mm front bar and Koni front adjustable front shocks.
In daily driving the v8 car is fine, but is not anything like the 4cyl.
When auto-xing the 4cyl was much less work to drive fast. The v8 car needs more shifting, (4500 rpm redline) and more correction to the wheel.
Having run both cars 2 seasons in a row, against the same competitors, I get the pretty much the same times.
It is just a lot more work in the v8 car.
I need to add this, on the street there are many more times that you could accelerate hard than drive turns hard enough to get a thrill and be safe, so the v8 car is a kick in the pants every time I drive it, the 4cyl was better on a long twisty road.
I also need to say that I do not have as much "seat time" in the v8 car.
Also if I had a ls1 or an alum head 302 that could rev to 6500 rpm then the driving exp would be very different.

George

My 350 spins to 6500 no problem. I can feel the torque dropping off at that point, probably due to the hydraulic lifters.

much to ponder. more field research is needed. I think Ill go drive mine while y'all speculate about what might be if you had one. theres alot of typing about something someone has never done

Sean,
Wish I could say the same. Removed the engine from my yellow car this morning to install the A/C compressor.

QUOTE (sean_v8_914 @ May 28 2005, 01:09 PM)

much to ponder. more field research is needed. I think Ill go drive mine while y'all speculate about what might be if you had one. theres alot of typing about something someone has never done

Bob

QUOTE (sean_v8_914 @ May 28 2005, 10:09 AM)

much to ponder. more field research is needed. I think Ill go drive mine while y'all speculate about what might be if you had one. theres alot of typing about something someone has never done

Sean,

Good advice but most of the folks posting here have a V8 914 or are building one. It's a fair question for someone considering a V8...

Is your's running now?

well...no. this afternoon I pulled teh water pump. the impeller is toast.
I have (had) a set of Yokohama AOO3A that are at teh end of the line so I put them on this morning and cooked em round town all day. they get so slippery toward the end

Guy: do you have pics of your radiator installation? the bracket fab and shrouding?

QUOTE (MattR @ May 26 2005, 09:21 PM)

2.4L is 400 lbs. But remember, it has a much lower center of mass (the engine) because the heads, pistons, and crank are all very low compared to a V8, and a (real) six doesnt have a radiator and water running through it, so that saves weight too.

yes.

QUOTE (sean_v8_914 @ May 28 2005, 07:38 PM)

well...no. this afternoon I pulled teh water pump. the impeller is toast. I have (had) a set of Yokohama AOO3A that are at teh end of the line so I put them on this morning and cooked em round town all day. they get so slippery toward the end Guy: do you have pics of your radiator installation? the bracket fab and shrouding?

Sean,

Here's my old Simpson and new Renegade. Quite a variation in design features. I got part numbers from Scott but don't know which numbers belong to which impeller. The Simpson's w/p bearing is still tight but then I had low miles on it. I just wanted to see what it looked like before I sold it. I will use distilled water this time...

I've never had the shroud off my Renegade rad.

QUOTE (Andyrew @ May 26 2005, 09:46 PM)

Having converted mine, I (at first) had problems with it Not being able to stick, and having way to much understeer... I dont have that problem now... It will feel amazing when you finally get it to stick. Just drive it around with 1/16th throttle and it will be a t4... Thats what I did at the WCC.... Andrew

1/16th throttle was still enough to bounce my head off the back window! After ridding in Andrews car, I've decided I need a V8. Who cares if it handles a little worse, you have way more power! And the sounds of a hot V8 should make up for something too.

its all true. a V8 914 handles like shit. they all overheat and the tranny breaks the first time you drive it. you can never do a burn out. the engine is too tightly jammed in there. its harder to work on. teh engine is too big and will flex teh chassis. you need sub-frame connectors. teh PCA people will flock to marvel at your fine machine. you need to run 5000 lbs rear springs to support the heavy motor. the high center of gravity will make your car flip over at on-ramps. you have to cut holes everywhere to make it fit. teh brakes will not stop the car with the heavy v8. gUys in Mustangs will wave you by to pass.

did I miss any?

that would be hearsay.

k

Well... How many guys was I tailing at the wcc on the corners? How many did I pass? Couple. How many guys passed me? Well... Drew passed me, but he's running slicks. The orange 6 passed me, I think he's running sticky tires... and "Ugly" passed me... but I managed to keep up with him for a while... then my balls came up and I held back a little Im sure there was others

I was running street tires, and I was very impressed with how much it "stuck".

Did I piss off enough people yet? No?

shoot...

i here...er, hear ya. being aware than any car with 350-400 hp is going to be a handful with a pile of go pedal is the key. i was cautious when driving craig's yellow 8. it wasn't my car to brake, er, break.

k

QUOTE (sean_v8_914 @ May 28 2005, 08:38 PM)

Guy: do you have pics of your radiator installation? the bracket fab and shrouding?

Sean, unfortunately I never took any pictures of the radiator during installation on my yellow car. Guess I was in too much of a rush. I just have pics of the opening and then after it was installed. But maybe I can take some pictures when the radiator goes in the new red car.

QUOTE (sean_v8_914 @ May 29 2005, 09:28 AM)

its all true. a V8 914 handles like shit. they all overheat and the tranny breaks the first time you drive it. you can never do a burn out. the engine is too tightly jammed in there. its harder to work on. teh engine is too big and will flex teh chassis. you need sub-frame connectors. teh PCA people will flock to marvel at your fine machine. you need to run 5000 lbs rear springs to support the heavy motor. the high center of gravity will make your car flip over at on-ramps. you have to cut holes everywhere to make it fit. teh brakes will not stop the car with the heavy v8. gUys in Mustangs will wave you by to pass. did I miss any?

You got most of them - someone posted here "you can't get to the spark plugs", uh - I can change them in 5 minutes and my 7 yr old son could change them.

I have driven mine daily from about '98. The only time it stranded me was when the clutch cable (it was factory from '72) broke. I walked to ACE and bought some cable clamps and went on my way.

My 315 35zr17's are just enough to keep it planted, I know it would be better with bigger - I don't know how it would work on smaller tires? Could be a myth because I have never driven one with stock small tires.

It is funny how V8's have become "accepted"