hello,

I am an automotive engineering student at the University of Windsor. I am trying to somehow incorporate the restoration of my 914 into my education somehow. After talking to many of my professors a few of them are suggesting I try and turbo the original 1.8l type-4 came in the car. I have the entire case completely apart, down to the crank, and am at the stage where I'm getting ready to start blueprinting this engine. However, it seems that turbo type-4's are not very common, and I do not seem to understand why. I am ready to take on the challenge, however, I would love some advice (combinations, etc.).

I am thinking that I will keep stock crank and rods, and get some JE forged pistons (not sure of size yet). Was also thinking I port the stock heads. However, beyond that, i have planned anything.

cheers,

Blake

Search here for McMark Turbo.

Search using turbo and McMark as username.

He built a 1.7 turbo and has great pictures and info.

Ideally you'd measure the bores and order pistons to suite the application.
You do not want to bore them bigger, leave them as thick as possible for better sealing right now

Im not 100% but isn’t there an issue with the cylinder heads being thin and prone to cracking with boost? More food for thought is wether to use a head gasket.

I cannot seem to find anything. I will keep looking, I'm kind of new to 914 world and so I'm still figuring out how it all works. Thanks for the advice.

You got me curious, so I googled it. Here's a couple threads that should keep you busy for awhile

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...54&hl=turbo

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...p;#entry2140135

A few reasons turbos are not that popular on 914s that I can think of:

When the car had been brand new or even just a few years old, turbo technology just didnt have the best understanding. Heck even major diesel manufactures had N/A motors like Ford and Chevy and some big rigs.

For the most part 911 engines literally just bolt up. And the bigger motors that don't directly bolt up have support from companies that sell the small required parts.

For many back then and even now FI is like black magic. The stock EFI didn't play too nice with boost. Sure carbs can be made to work however that increases the cost and complexity depending on the design.

Berg made a kit, it was expensive. For a few bucks more one could do an engine swap to a Chevy or the like.

I don't think you will find that many other car models from the same era that has that many aftermarket turbo installs except maybe VW Bugs.

With the value of the cars going up, many people are keeping them stock or just increasing displacment a bit.

Consider supplementing with methanol injection to reduce preignition and cool under higher pressures.

I think McMark only runs about 7psi on his 1.7L. I've ridden in it and it has good smooth power. Not a monster but a nice running motor.

I'd like to see this when you get done, and I'm not too far away. Could maybe time it with a visit to a brother in Belle River. He's a grad of your program that works across the river for one of the big three.

Forsure, whenever you are near! Thanks for all the advice! To be honest the FI scares me but I will cross that bridge when I need too. Was think I might try a do some sort of carb set up, but I’m not sure. I do like the idea of running on meth.

You'll need to make a decision on FI or carbs before assembling the case as they require different camshafts.

Good luck with the project and keep us posted.

I think McMark made his as a proof-of-concept so he keeps the boost low for now. The case may have never been apart, so stock internals. He just basically said - “I know you can’t turbocharge a 914, but if you could, what would it look like?” If he started with fresh paper he could beef up the bottom end so he can dial up the boost.
I have driven it and it is pretty good. Small turbo, no lag.
Original Customs is in Grand Rapids Michigan, that’s McMark’s business.

Sorry, you HAVE to learn how FI works to be any sort of decent Engineer

If you promise to finish it and learn from it, just pay for shipping and I'll send you a partially built Megasquirt for no charge as I have decided this morning to spend the $ and buy a Microsquirt.

If interested I'll post a picture of how far along the assembly is.
Kit is similar to this one: https://www.diyautotune.com/product/megasqu...t-w-black-case/

Since McMark's already done the turbo, how about supercharging?

Carbs are a thing of the past-especially when coupled with forced induction. IMHO one of the biggest parts of this learning experience is in proper implementation of the EFI system (applied learning), though there is also a lot more theoretical learning in turbocharger sizing, intercooler design, etc. as well as potentially modeling the whole thing in Wave, GTPower, Dymola, etc. (Full disclosure I'm an ME with systems background)

Mike's offer is very generous.

For some reason I could have sworn I read Jake Raby saying something along the lines that he'd rather turbocharge a Type IV than do another supercharger. I could be way off here.

I would be very interested. It is not FI that is confusing to me. It is the 914's FI (what system to use etc.). I need to start somewhere. this would be a huge help, as obviously I am working with a student budget.

Cheers,

Blake

P.s. I sincerely promise I would finish it. It's how I learn best.

I wanted to add as well that I am currently restoring the entire car. It has some bad rust, and so I have literally torn it down to the shell. It's most definitely not a project I plan on having it running this summer, but to hopefully have it ready within the next two years.

Chances are you have D-jet, not too complicated if you read this site below, great wealth of information:

https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/DJetParts.htm

If you L-jet with the flapper (which I prefer over D-Jet just because I've had more 914's with it):

https://www.type4.org/manuals/ljet/

He indicated the engine is a 1.8, so it's probably L-jet.

Totally missed that! Thanks!

Of course the 1.8 I bought last year had D-jet installed on it.

Gene Berg never made a turbo kit, and he never did anything T4. Maybe Bernie Bergman made a kit.
Type 1 is easier to turbo as it has closer together, evenly spaced head studs.
Big downfall with the T4 is the head stud arraignment, one reason Mark turbos the 1.7 because it has smaller ID cylinders, so therefore the cylinders have thicker walls.

I'm sure some one has said "you can't turbo a 914", you can, it's even better now because of aftermarket FI/ignition, but the benefit to cost ratio doesn't make it a great choice.

What I'd try to run by your instructors is build a MS (megasquirt) FI system, then build modified motorcycle ITB's and maybe also a single plenum/TB design and do a comparative study between the two intake systems.

Below is a link to what I did for motorcycle ITB's, myself and many others here would help with any questions you have.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...w=&st=&

HPBooks- "How to Rebuild Your VOLKSWAGEN Air-Cooled Engine" by Tom Wilson arrived in the mail about 5 minutes ago. Looks like I'll be reading for the rest of today.

That book is OK but it's quite dated on fuel/ignition system and IIRC it's more for the type one beetle engine. The two engines are similar so it will give you a basic understanding of how they work.
With the type one and type four (914) engine the best analogy is V8's world of small block vs big block. The T4 would be the big block, very similar engines, but not quite the same.

Here it is:

Click to view attachment

I'd redo the harness, just use for parts.

I'm including the megastim as well.

http://www.msextra.com/manuals/stim/

Assembly manual for it:

http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/MS2V357_Hardware-3.4.pdf

This is so awesome and generous of you. I am extremely thankful. Are you sure you don't want anything for it? Looks perfect, yes I will redo the harness, going to start completely from scratch.

Do you need any info from me?

cheers,

Blake

If you've got a big project ahead of you getting the chassis sorted, do yourself a favor and just get a stock engine running to drive the car first. Engineering big power engines on paper is fun, but making them a reality is HARD, time consuming and expensive.

From what I'm reading of your posts, you're biting off more than anyone can chew. Don't start every project at once.

Unless, of course, you have a nice fat savings account to pay for everything.

No, my savings account isn't huge, however, I have lots of parts, multiple engines, and transmissions, and am a pretty handy kid in the garage I would say, and have rebuilt a few engines (mainly SBC's). I do have tons of support from my professors and will have access to engine dynos and lots of technical help from them whenever I need. I know its crazy, but if it was easy everyone would do it. My father just bought a '74 "stock 914" that I can drive whenever I want. If I wanted a stock running car, I would go find a clean shell and get it running. I know it's going to be lots of work, but that's why I am doing it, it's for learning. Like I said, I'm not looking to get this finished by the summer, I'm taking my time, working on one step at a time. I bet many people told you, that what you were doing was crazy, but that didn't seem to stop you either

Bellow is a video I have made, with the help of a friend describing the build if anyone is interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eWMMq30Yyc&t=6s

Awesome project! Sounds like an ambitious project, but it can be done. I built the 914 racecar in my avatar while I was in college and grad school (and a budget to match). So it can be done. You'll get lots of info. here when needed, and some parts too apparently . Keep us posted.

Scott

This thread warms my heart.

Good luck with this! Maybe you'll invent some stuff we can all use.

You completely misunderstand. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't. I'm saying the chassis is more important, and the bottom line of what I'm saying is that you should focus on that exclusively first. But you're FULLY capable of doing a turbo build. It's not rocket science. I'll gladly help. I'll share everything I know. But I've seen a lot of newbies come through here with grand ideas, only to get burned out, stalled, and give up.

If you wanna jump on it all right outta the gate, lets do it. What do you want to know?

I used a K03 turbo off of a 1.8VW/AUDI engine for my engine. I built a custom exhaust header using prebent piping from Summit Racing. I chose to put the turbo up high to allow for gravity oil drain and that worked fine for me. It also kept plumbing to a minimum. I'm running about 7lbs of boost and because of the small turbo there's no noticeable turbo lag. It's just always there. During testing and fiddling with the turbo settings I saw boost as high as 1bar. Didn't blow anything up right away.

You're going to be dealing with heat if you're trying to make big power from a small engine using a turbo. And unlike water-cooled cars, there's not much you can do that isn't fantastically expensive. So you have to give up some potential (in my opinion) to play it safe.

I think fuel injection is necessary for a well built turbo engine. Carbs can be run, and people have done it successfully, but it's always a bit of a hack.

So what else do you wanna know?

I have done a low boost turbo set up before. I did this 100% by myself with lots of research on a -6 3.0.. I ran 6 psi of boost using a 3.2 intake and megasquirt.. I was not a megasquirt expert but it worked fantastic for me.. I did blow that engine up when the wastegate signal line melted as it was too close to the exhaust. I then built a 3.2 short stroke out of it and went with a divided housing turbo and dual wastegates and bumped it to 9 psi with 8:1 compression ratio.. It was extremely reliable but the learning curve was expensive.. The type 4 project will be fun for you and for us to read about.. Enjoy the process but be prepared for set backs.

And just because I can I will share my 3.2 ss picture you will notice a few things changed along the way with exhaust and the intercooler.. Click to view attachment Click to view attachmentClick to view attachmentClick to view attachment

I'd say there are plenty of turbo type4's. They are just not in 914's but in beetles or busses. Look in the type4:um on Shoptalkforums and you will find reading a plenty and also alot of people with knowledge.

The challenge with the 914 and turbo as I see it is getting a working intercooler setup without hacking the body to bits. Some sort of Boxster like air intake behind the doors would probably be the most elegant solution, maybe IC on one side and oilcooler on the other?

Yes that would be ideal.. Much like the rendering that optimusglen did..

Member ejm on here built a 1.8 liter turbo four as well. IIRC, he used the turbo off a VW 1.8T, likely for the same reasons McMark did. He also ran CIS from (I think) an Audi 5-cylinder motor, using the 5th line for extra enrichment?

Member Evill Ed built a 1.7 turbo quite a long time ago. When the 1.7 started having problems I believe he bumped it up to a 1911cc. I don't remember the engine management, but he did have water/methanol injection to help with temps.

Another member here owns that car, and may have made improvements since.

Good ol' SammyG from Pelican built a 2.0 turbo. He used a draw-through carb setup. He admitted it wasn't optimal, but it did work. I think I remember that the car and engine were sold separately, and the turbo setup didn't go with either.


Finally: "Everybody knows you can't turbocharge a 914!" That is a quote from an old "european car" issue, which was widely derided at the time by those of us who had seen (or a few who had built!) the above cars. It's become a catch-phrase in many on-line 914 circles.

--DD

Kinda confused why you would do a aircooled turbo

Instead of watercooled

Or turbo diesal


The car with the audi turbo is really cool

As would a ecotech

The chassis is what I am working on right now. I am in second year, and will have to complete a big project in 4th year called capstone. SO what my professors have suggested is to try to get everything else on the car fixed, then come forth year I will spend most of my time on the engine component.

I was given a k03 off an a4 as well and was planning on using it. Found a $50 rebuild kit on eBay...

It is so cold outside right now, however, that my time is better spent learning (it's really amazing how much you can learn from some books) and planning right now, rather than freeze and getting frustrated outside. Just reading your turbo thread has taught so much. My apologies for the misinterpretation.

Fuel injection is definitely what I am going to do. Thank you to "mueller" for convincing me:)... excited to learn how to use and build megasquirt.

Heat is a concern, someone above mentioned I should try water-math injection to help keep temps down... What do you think about this? Also going to use forged JE pistons, just to be safe, and of course a big oil cooler was always going to be part of the plan. I have done some sketches of a turbo system for a 914 (did it for a design project in first year), that I will post when I get the chance. They are pretty basic, nothing special, but gives a good idea of how I'd like the setup to be.

I will have questions for you periodically, trust me. I'll also say that I completely understand tons of people come on here and say they are going to do incredible things, and end up failing. I am very determined with this car and I promise I won't give up until it is everything I say it's going to be. It means everything to me.

Thanks for the help and support, this isn't the last you've heard of me!

Blake

P.s. I posted a link bellow with a youtube video my friend made with me, that i talk about the build in. He has a youtube channel, and has suggested we do periodic "build updates" every few months.

That's the plan. Thanks for the support, helps me stay motivated!

The learning curve is expensive and time-consuming. Definitely prepared for setbacks, too be completely honest, sometimes setbacks are how I learn best sometimes. I have said, "I will never do it that way again", many times while taking the car apart. Funny actually while disassembling the engine (I did this on a cinderblock on the floor of my garage), I don't know why I decided to do this, but I thought I would be able to split the case and slide the pistons through the holes in the case, keeping the pistons, rods, and crank as one assembly. So I split the case and found out very quickly that the piston will not go through the holes in the case. This mistake took me 3 weeks and an angle grinder to figure out how to fix. It's a good thing I have a couple engines lol.

I have an idea for the intercooler. My car isn't in the best shape, so originality is not a concern. If a body panel gets in my way... bye bye panel. Some people may not like this too much.

Thanks for the advice. I know you can't turbo a 914, and that is exactly why I'm going to do it

Ben - when are we building a 914-6GT 3.2 turbo?

Simple... because of its cool and unique. Sure anyone can swap a different modern engine into there car with a turbo. But there is a lot less actually engineering that goes into that, as it has been done lots before. But it is not enough to make a project out of it, or one that would be approved by my professors. A flat 4 boxer has a very low C.G. and is perfect for the driving characteristics of a 914. Later on, in life, i plan on building 2 more 914's (probably many more), one that is AWD and has a Subaru STI drivetrain, and one with a SBC, with a blower that pokes out over the roof.

Here are the drawings i made:
Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

Very simple, most of my class had no idea what a turbo system even was so i didnt go into crazy detail.

I know it says radiator in the subject, however there are a few pictures of that you might use for intercooler location

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=246373

It will be very challenging to route the driveshaft forward to the front wheels--the engine will be in the way! I know that some mid-engine AWD cars run the driveshaft through the crankcase, and others that have transverse engines and transmissions just go forward from the trans case because that is to one side of the engine crankcase.

Either one would be tough to do with a Scooby drivetrain.

--DD

This is a dream of mine, it will be a long time before i even think about how to make it work.

Something to think about: Because of the expansion and contraction of the exhaust manifold you have designed I think you should put in some Stainless Steel bellows so the manifold does not crack.

My 2-liter with turbo at 7 lbs. of boost made a lot of power and the exhaust glowed red after hard running. This was back in 79 or 1980 or so.

I had hydraulic valve lifters in the car and the only thing wrong with my engine was the parts supplier did not sell me harden lifters. Every few hundred miles the vales would get out of adjustment and when I pulled down my engine the lifters looked like mushrooms.

Bob B
Click to view attachment

So by engine in the back, electric motor in the front.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/...mpaign=GRMDaily

That design isnt to be taken to seriously... it was a group project, not everything was my idea. Thanks for the advice.