what do i do?

just bought a STOCK BEAUTIFUL '72 1.7FI

always had carbs......it runs soooooooo smooth with the FI that im not ready to throw in the towel for my 40's...........yet, or should I?

it runs nice.....but i actually expected more power outta a porsche

my old bugs 1776cc had HELLA more headsnapping action....?? mebbe its the FI being weird? *crossing fingers*

it's mostly fine....but sometimes after coming off crusing speed for a bit, [5-10 min.....i live in WAY northern california, humboldt county, almost oregon, sea level, not to far to drive till i get to where im goin...so it never gets much workout...] it will stall out when it drops to idle.... then every time, till later after not being driven for a bit....the last few blocks home after getting off the highway is usually pretty aggro...

the other day tooling around Eureka, it was stalling out @ every red light & stop sign, i had to keep my foot on da gas to kep her from chokin out...

i bought a haynes mannual for my car already, but it says D-Jets you cant really do shit too.....so where am i left? i have nice carbs that can be dropped in an afternoon, but id like to rectify this insted if possible..

i ran 2 cans of chemtool injector cleaner through it with premium gas always [my old motor's builder said with the compression in it i should run hi-test]....should i run preimum in the 914 too? and it did feel better i think after those bottles of cleaner....

what now ?

thnks

-JD

BTW....the woman didnt come with the car......that was my addition

well, line up for the -6 conversion....

don't fix it if it ain't broke

Step 1--Get over to http://members.rennlist.com/pbanders .
Step 2--Read, read, read, read, read.....

--DD

The number one thing to do is to make sure all hoses that are supposed to be there are in fact there. Then make sure they are all tightly fit with no leaks.

QUOTE (grantsfo @ Jun 9 2005, 12:44 PM)

The number one thing to do is to make sure all hoses that are supposed to be there are in fact there. Then make sure they are all tightly fit with no leaks.

Then the number two thing is to check all wiring connections. They need to be clean and tight. The connectors have to be firmly attached to the wires.

30 year old cars need to be completely checked out, not just bought and driven. D-Jet or carbs. If you bought the car with carbs that had been installed 30 years ago, you'd likely be facing mystery problems that required the entire fuel system to be flushed out, and the carbs rebuilt, and the wiring gone through. No different with D-Jet, except that there's more wiring and more hoses.

As for power, you must remember that the 1.7 only made 80hp at best, and a 914 weighs more than a Bug. Your Bug's 1776 was NOT tuned for good emissions, which was the primary concern with the 1.7 in 1972. The "real" Porsche 914, the 914-6, made 110hp in 1970, and while it was considerably faster than the 1.7, and also a good deal faster than other VW offerings of the day, it would be flat stomped by a recent Golf or Jetta in straightline speed. Even a Camry with a V6 and a slushbox can out-accelerate these things. So, expecting neck-snapping power out of a stock-ish 914 is unrealistic. That's why you drop in a 180hp 911SC engine, or send a wad of money to Jake Raby for a 150hp 2270 Type IV, or drop in a Chebby.

these things would cause a degredation in proformance, not keep it from running entirely?

is it possible to remove emmisions devices from here without swapping FI for carbs? or would one need a programmable FI ECU?

have you checked the timing to ensure that it is correct at idle and that it is advancing correctly?

like others have said, check for vac. leaks...you might want to take the injectors out and look at the spray pattern

a '72 doesn't really have smog stuff to worry about......

for "stellar" performance your choices are new motor or a power-adder such as a turbo

no kit's so you are on your own

there arent any turbo kits for 914's been made?

what other reccomendations do yall have for shops/companies that offer good motors... RAT quoted me $$$14,500 shipped for a motor!!?!?! i guess i didnt know what i was getting into! how much are thes 911sc converts or others..?

QUOTE (Bezerker420 @ Jun 19 2005, 01:51 AM)

there arent any turbo kits for 914's been made? what other reccomendations do yall have for shops/companies that offer good motors... RAT quoted me $$$14,500 shipped for a motor!!?!?! i guess i didnt know what i was getting into! how much are thes 911sc converts or others..?

"You can't Turbo a 914!"

QUOTE (Bezerker420 @ Jun 19 2005, 12:51 AM)

there arent any turbo kits for 914's been made? what other reccomendations do yall have for shops/companies that offer good motors... RAT quoted me $$$14,500 shipped for a motor!!?!?! i guess i didnt know what i was getting into! how much are thes 911sc converts or others..?

No, turbo kits have never been available. There are a few one-offs out there.

That RAT quote is more than 2x the usual price; that must be with every bell and whistle available. Again, high power is never cheap. You can build a V8 for as little as $3K if you scrimp and do a lot of the work yourself. You can also spend more than $30K getting one that has the best of everything, all done by someone else. A Soob conversion can be 140-350hp, and cost anywhere from $2K to $20K. The usual "how fast do you want to go?" applies here.

To give you some idea of how far you'd need to go, just look at power/weight. A stock car weighs 2000-2200lbs (later cars are heavier). A C4 Corvette weighs about 2800lbs, and makes about 280hp, so a 10:1 weight to power ratio. So, you'd need about 200hp in a 914 to get in the C4 Corvette ballpark. The Acura RSX-S makes about 200hp for its 2800lbs, for a 14:1 ratio, and only 140hp will get you into that territory with an early 914.

You can cut about 200lbs off an early 914 for under $2000, which reduces your Corvette requirement down to only 180hp, and the Acura number down to only 130hp. You can get a streetable 130hp out of a 2056 Type IV, which can be built on the cheap for $2-3K. A non-turbo 2.5 Soob engine makes 165hp, so you comfortably split the difference between the Vette and the Acura, and that swap can be done for under $5K.

A decent V8 will have genuine supercar performance, but you need a lot more than just an engine swap to exploit that. The stock gearbox is marginal for this, so you start looking at other gearboxes, like the Audi/Boxster unit, or the 930. Wider wheels to put the power down rather than just generate tire smoke, which also means bodywork to clear those wheels, and you need better brakes to stop it all, etc. Renegade claims they can duplicate their show quality demo car for roughly $50K, which is a lot cheaper than a Ferrari. You could make something that went as fast but looked like hell for half that, which is only Honda Accord money.

here we go again...

six conversions cost about:
$3000-5500 for a 3.0-3.2 motor
$3000-5000 for the oil tank, lines, flywheel, etc for all the parts and pieces. You can save here for used swap meet stuff.
With 180-220 hp you need to install better brakes. You can:
install the special 4 bolt hubs sold here and install 911 M calipers with vented discs
or
Install a complete 911 front suspension at about $800 with SC brakes
You will need to install new front and rear bushings $800
You will need to install new koni's $700
You will need to install new Tbars and rear springs $300

You can install it yourself if you are good at mechanic's.

Cheaper to go out and buy a done car at $12000-15000

The RAT quote that he received is accurate... BUT it includes programmable EFI (3500.00) with EVERY component included including the pump and pressure regulator as well as ceramic lifters and every option except Nickies and Performance coatings.

With the addition of the Type 4 Store my complete engines have become a pedigreed hallmark and they now each receive TWICE as much build time and all the goodies included as a standard, including EFI. His price also included the 914 DTM- Thats about 1K...

This price also includes TWO solid days on the dyno to test the engine and also to ensure that the EFI is fully mapped.

Since the pricing and inclusion changes I have actually had an INCREASE in sales by 20%! I had originally thought that we would see a drop in sales, especially in the beginning but that assumption was totally incorrect. It seems that since people really want the most modern aircooled engine they can and are willing to pay for it. The backlog went from 8 months to 11 months very fast and I am expecting to see it go over a solid year by early August at this rate. A ton of these customers are from Europe- at least 30% of these engines are destined for shipping there.

Don't think that the added cost means more$$ for us, the extra cost in parts and the extra labor involved has kept the same margins for us but created an ultimate powerplant and thats my entire goal here.

The next inclusive part I plan to add to my engines are Nickies.... That means EVERY engine that I ship will have them...Look for that in 2006!

Here is a bit of history for ya...

In 1997 a RAT 2270 cost 6K and made 135HP on the dyno with carbs and a 009.. That same exact engine today makes 170 HP through refinements and without the EFI it would cost about 10K. All the things that I do to these engines and all the time I spend in R&D to keep raising the bar higher increases costs because those developments that we make ARE UTILIZED- Everyone else is too lazy to push the envelope and even spend 1 buck of their own to help the aircooled engine move forward in the 21st century- I just spent a solid week and about 6K on updating the dyno cell for better EFI tuning capability and on the install of a 32 channel data logger that can be used on the dyno or in the test car..... Test equipment is not cheap fellas.

another FYI- In 1997 I did 60 engines, so far this year I have only completed 14... The engines are MUCH more developed and built with much better tolerances than in 1997.

My engines have never cost so much before, never made as much power and I have never been busier than I am right now- Sure not everyone can afford it, but I want to KNOW the names of my customers and have no desire to have any more volume than I do right now.

If you can't afford to buy the complete engine, or can't wait long enough for the build then I offer kits for roughly 40% of what the entire engine costs... BUT the kit won't get you a custom dyno tuned EFI engine but it will score you a complete, dyno proven combination that is 100% balanced, machined and ready to assemble.. Its so simple that a 15 year old can do it!

Just fix the current FI and enjoy the car for a while before you start spending $$$ for conversions. These guys will have you dropping in a V12 before you know what hit ya.

Go read Brad Anders' site (linked above). Tune the car and check (better yet replace) all your vacuum lines. Then let us know how it runs or of you're still having problems.

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Jun 19 2005, 09:05 AM)

The RAT quote that he received is accurate... BUT it includes programmable EFI (3500.00) with EVERY component included...

I think that qualifies as "all the bells and whistles"...

Run the D-jet, run the motor as-is, learn the car. Drive it for a year, then figure out where you want to go.

--DD

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jun 19 2005, 11:05 AM)

No, turbo kits have never been available. There are a few one-offs out there.

you might want to ask Martin Scheider for a second opinion on that one :-)... certainly, there were very few, and it was a l-o-n-g time ago...

i haven't heard any mention of the leaky MPS nor the cylinder head temp sensor yet.

Step One: bring EVERYTHING up to factory-original snuff. do a by-the-book tune-up. adjust the valves, get the point gap and timing spot-on, make sure there are no vacuum leaks anywhere. clean or replace the trigger points. adjust the TPS, make sure the CHT sensor is in range.

carbs will NOT add any power by themselves.

1,7's are not stoplight Grand Prix cars - they are handling cars, designed to scoot away from bigger and more powerful cars in the twisty bits. if you want a drag racing car, go buy a Camaro or a HemiCuda or a Supra or something.

AFTER everything is working as well it's supposed to, you can add as much power as you want. the floor is about $20 per HP; there is no upper bound.

You can also easily build up a good replacement TIV yourself. Hell, as old as these cars are, a stock-rebuilt 1.7 will seem like the difference of night and dayto an old tired engine. A new set of pistons, rings and cylinders + a valve job would be a nice inexpensive way to freshen the motor.

I Agree, check your TPS, and all components of FI system.
Once running-well, enjoy driving the car, then figure-out what's next!

first off.....im am a convert from high performance Beetles...[yall Porsche boys dont laugh] and im not really interested in motor "conversions" i like the concept and execution of the aircooled motor.....the porsche 6 seems to "fit" it is a [truer??] porsche motor....but i got into this with the idea of a sportier more "luxury" VW, so that /6 dosent really hold any intrigue.....

as for the RAT powerplant, ive always been one to scrimp/save and be able to purchase the BEST of a given item, then to get something thats not the tits...

Type I's are turboed like crazy....arent T4's? or is is a porsche engine bay space thing....?


as for the current motor, ODO says 87,xxx miles and the body/interior and perfectly stockness of the motor reflect this, i belive, it was supposedly sitting ina garage since a 1986 divorce... hoses all look good....from what my haynes says i need a CO monitor to tune the air/fuel ratio and, i think, that is the "only" thing wrong from here.....from a trouble shooting table i found on a site somewhere.... but with only 87,xxx mi I dunno how the tranny could be so shitty felling....mechanic say it looks like orig enigne tho..!?

QUOTE (Bezerker420 @ Jun 24 2005, 03:39 AM)

Type I's are turboed like crazy....arent T4's? or is is a porsche engine bay space thing....? haynes says i need a CO monitor to tune the air/fuel ratio .... with only 87,xxx mi I dunno how the tranny could be so shitty felling....

turbos: it is a "there aren't enough T-IV people who want to pay the money to do it right to make it worth building a kit that people will bolt up to original engines and be pissed off when they break" thing.

a CO monitor is nice and not that expensive but if you fix and check all the stuff that can be done without it, you should find the CO will be correct. you cannot "just" tune the air/fuel ratio. you adjust the stuff like the fuel pressure regulator and make sure your manifold pressure sensor and cylinder head sensor are working. if they are - your mixture will be correct. if they're not, nothing you do will make it right...

your tranny can be shitty-shifting because the original 87,xxx mi rubber transmission and engine mounts and plastic shift linkage bushings are 35 years old and falling apart. your fuel lines are probably in the same shape, so be careful...

QUOTE (Bezerker420 @ Jun 23 2005, 11:39 PM)

but with only 87,xxx mi I dunno how the tranny could be so shitty felling..

Change the shift bushing. It made a huge differance in my car
http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopca..._pedals_pg1.htm

Check out Brad's page. That resoure and this book and you should be able to tackle any D-jet problems. I picked it up at the public library.

A quick fix(meaning not the best) is to raise the idle with the air bypass screw on the throttle body. That will keep it from stalling at lights, untill you've read up and can fix the problem correctly

Stalling out can be fixed by:
#1 New points, plugs, condensor, cap, rotor, wires, clean all FI grounds, battery terminals, tranny strap ground connections
#2 Adjust timing to 27 degrees BFTDC @ 3500rpms with a timing lite (check marks first)
#3 Adjust valves (cold) before starting engine to .006
#4 Check for vacuum leaks and replace all old hoses and install new O rings and gaskets
#5 Adjust idle mix and speed with the engine hot
#6 Lube the AAR valve with a couple of shots of PB Blasters (not WD40)

Car should start up cold and idle at 1500-1800 rpms and after 5-10 minutes settle down to a sweet 950 rpms and stay there even when at a stop lite. Throttle response is instant and there should be no hesitation off idle to cruise.
No bucking at 3000 rpms as thats caused by a bad TPS.

The Turbo thing on a TIV Vs. a TI goes very deep. The TI has an exhaust port that is better for Turbo than a TIV simply because it's the strong point of the head. With any Turbo engine the exhaust heat and pressure is the key and with the TIV we just don't have that port characteristic in the factory heads.

My Billet heads will be great for Turbo, I am building a Turbo TIV with them now.

Sure you can Turbo a TIV with the right machining and thoughts and components, BUT since the gains are not as big as they should be it simply isn't worth the effort at the present..

yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah....i moved...outta the 2bed apartment into a 4 bedroom house.....no driveway house is like 4 feet off sidewalk, and the garage is only like 8 feet deep and 6 feet tall.....[the previous tenants grew tons of pot and moved walls around to suit their "needs" so i only have storage, not workspace.... ]



im curious/confused why VW would have moved backwards to a "weaker" casted head on a TIV then from the earlier engines...?

jake....how far north are you from fayetteville? my GF's family is all from there.....and one whole branch of my fam tree is from rome/carrolton....I visit georiga more often then most others, and im gonna have to stop by and check out your new digs....



sorry for asking.....but [years ago] a guy i knew put a huge/nasty T1 in his 912 cause a new motor [912] was same price as a monster T1....why couldnt/shouldnt i do this with the 914? with a bus case maby to mount it?

QUOTE (Bezerker420 @ Jul 14 2005, 10:04 AM)

sorry for asking.....but [years ago] a guy i knew put a huge/nasty T1 in his 912 cause a new motor [912] was same price as a monster T1....why couldnt/shouldnt i do this with the 914? with a bus case maby to mount it?

Fully built Type Is don't tend to live very long. From everything I've heard, you're lucky to get 50K miles between rebuilds. The Type IV is much more robust, and a 2.3-2.5L T4 will last a lot longer than a similarly sized T1.

The T4 was designed just as the emissions era began, so the heads are the way they are partly for good emissions reasons. Later, people figured out how to get good emissions with power (catalytic convertors and good EFI), but in the late 60s, mild engine tuning and fairly crude EFI were the best that was available. This compromised the engine design, and many of these compromises have to be undone today.