QUOTE (redshift @ Jun 17 2005, 04:09 AM)

I have been up most of the night looking around the web for WRX, and related tuning (jees! i R a TuNErZ!)... maybe I am just not searching for the right thing.. I thought there was more bolt on stuff. Where are all the 400-500hp Subarus I keep hearing about? M

Dude, there are bolt ons up the wazoo for WRXs.


Just word your search differently.


Buy a block, throw a huge turbo on there, all the supporting mods like bigger intercooler, free flowing exhaust, injectors, fuel pump (maybe new fuel rails so cylinder number 3 doesn't lean out), and some good tuning and you have a 400 horsepower Suby. It is $$$ though.

I found some other ones, using product names to search with..

One went as far as having the front end off of a motor, showing the timing belt.

I'm out! I also can't handle professional websites with huge banner phrases like:

The Compotishion SUXORS!!!LOLOLOL!!!


M

QUOTE (redshift @ Jun 17 2005, 08:49 AM)

I found some other ones, using product names to search with.. One went as far as having the front end off of a motor, showing the timing belt. I'm out! I also can't handle professional websites with huge banner phrases like: The Compotishion SUXORS!!!LOLOLOL!!! M

Miles, in socal we spell tuners with a Z, so its tunerZ

dont hate

Is it just me, or does an Impreza look like some kind of Chinese catfish?




M

QUOTE (mudfoot76 @ Jun 17 2005, 07:36 AM)

All this talk about suby swaps makes me wish I had kept my wrecked SVX, and wish and dream about what RH might have worked up for the EJ33 (it is the 3.3L flat six in case you weren't aware...)

I looked into the 3.3 but decided against it because of the lack of aftermarket parts available for it. Hardley anyone has upgraded this engine to get more power so if you were looking to do so you would be the guinea pig. Whereas the EJ20 and EJ22 both have a proven track record.

QUOTE (brokenmoped @ Jun 16 2005, 10:20 PM)

I understand if you can't divulge any information as of yet, but my impatience has gotten the better...could you give us a ballpark figure of the pricing?

I'd guess $900 to $1200 not including the radiator stuff............we shall see...only 12 1/2 more hours to go before it is no longer the 17th


I wonder if the new 3.0 six will have better support for it with the aftermarket stuff and tuners...that also is a neat motor, I thought I read that they made it to be about only an inch or so longer than the fours????

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jun 17 2005, 02:33 PM)

I wonder if the new 3.0 six will have better support for it with the aftermarket stuff and tuners...

donno. that's what's in our '04 Outback, J's daily driver. she loves it. but -- is that available in any manual-transmission car yet? last i heard it was for AT's only (probably a decent decision in the light of WRX transmission woes...) -- and i don't think you're going to see a huge groundswell of performance-part support for an engine available only in AT wagons...

I haven't seen anything for a 6.


M

In general, the four cylinders have the most aftermarket engine compnenets etc.


If you guys are looking for specific stuff, post a thread up on WRXFanatics.com, I am sure many people would love to help you. Tell them I sent you over.

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jun 17 2005, 10:33 AM)

I'd guess $900 to $1200 not including the radiator stuff............we shall see...only 12 1/2 more hours to go before it is no longer the 17th

Ah, but price info is only useful if you also know what ISN'T included.
-Ben M.

I'm wondering if they are going to include stuff like exhaust components, a chopped oil pan, stuff for flipping the altnerator to a new location, etc. I'm anxious to see what is included in the kit and also, how they get away with making an engine support that uses the stock mounting points without comprimising strength.

-Tony

blasting thru the tunnel

doesn't sound too bad, better than my clackity Type IV

more pics and video on the move host site...no price from what I can tell.............

found the price:

QUOTE

The kit includes at 10 pieces of the Renegade Hybrids cradle style mount, rubber isolators, mount plates (front), mount blocks (rear), billet adapter plate, custom flywheel, pilot bearing, throw out bearing, Kevlar clutch disc, stage two pressure plate, and all necessary hardware.  We offer an introductory price for the complete kit listed above for $1995.

no pictures of the engine mount or instructions until they get the legal/paperwork stuff out of the way to help distract copy-cats....


now the next questions is radiator?!?!?!?! can one purchase this kit and just use a junkyard radiator or is the really nice, sorted out Renegade radiator the way to go???

http://www.renegadehybrids.com/turbo914/914subaru.html

QUOTE (TonyAKAVW @ Jun 17 2005, 12:07 PM)

I'm wondering if they are going to include stuff like exhaust components, a chopped oil pan, stuff for flipping the altnerator to a new location, etc.  I'm anxious to see what is included in the kit and also, how they get away with making an engine support that uses the stock mounting points without comprimising strength.   -Tony

this kit does not require you to chop the oil pan, move alternators ect... the engine remains pretty much stock. and yes you can use the stock engine mounts without any comprimising of anything! exhaust is really easy in these kits so other than a custom up-pipe on turbo applications we will leave the rest of the exhaust up to the customer. as for the radiator, We are offering the tried and true renegade hybrids radiator system with these kits. even though these engines are smaller than a v8 it does not mean that they run cooler. my RH radiator is cooling the subie engine wonderfully and I would recommend against running anything from a junkyard. P.S. more info and pricing was just added to the site!subie info

Wow, I must say that this kit sounds like a LOT of money for what amounts to an engine bar and a transmission adapter and clutch.

QUOTE

this kit does not require you to chop the oil pan, move alternators ect... the engine remains pretty much stock. and yes you can use the stock engine mounts without any comprimising of anything! exhaust is really easy in these kits so other than a custom up-pipe on turbo applications we will leave the rest of the exhaust up to the customer. as for the radiator, We are offering the tried and true renegade hybrids radiator system with these kits. even though these engines are smaller than a v8 it does not mean that they run cooler. my RH radiator is cooling the subie engine wonderfully and I would recommend against running anything from a junkyard. P.S. more info ans pricing was just added to the site!subie info

Chopping the oil pan just allows you to lower the center of gravity, which is one of the huge advantages of using a flat-4 motor in the first place. The oil pans are (relative to the dimensions of the engine) fairly tall for the Subaru engine.

I suppose moving the enigne forward a bit is what allows you to use the stock air intake location without cutting up the car. I guess I can't see a real disadvantage to that. Probably also offsets the problem of having the engine mounts skewed. (i.e. the engine mounts on the engine are in the back and the mounts on the car are in the front)

It really sounds like this is a $3000 kit when you includ the cost of the radiator/cooling system which if you are going to buy a kit like this you might as well do. Then you've got to figure another $1000 for an engine management system and wiring harness. And who knows how much for exhaust. So in the end you are looking at $4000 plus engine, plus a bunch of smaller random stuff. In the end, $5-$8k is probalby what its going to cost. That sounds fairly close to what a V8 conversion would cost.

From my perspective, (that of someone who likes to make his own stuff) this kit is pretty expensive for what you get. And really, for the naturally aspirated 2.5 engines or smaller, the engine bay radiator advantage is lost. I can understand why it might be hard to get sufficient cooling for the turbo motors with this configuration, but as far as I can tell this kit wouldn't allow for an engine bay radiator.

I figure that by the time I'm done with my conversion I will end up having spent well under $4000 total (thats for the car, 911 suspension, engine, converions, etc). But then I am doing a lot of work myself.... Depends on what kind of project you want I guess...

-Tony

Any time you do a conversion like this it will cost you some money, but believe me with the amazing performance capabilities and great reliability of this kit it makes it worth every penny! as for the engine bay radiator mounting there is still a lot of room in front of the engine ( I replaced a stock waterpump with the engine in the car) if you want to try it you can. and if it works more power to you. but the renegade radiator is a great setup that has proven its self as a winner over the decades. when you see the quality and complexity of this engine mount you will see why it is priced where it is.

obviously anything can be done cheaper, but they are selling a known working package...I'm sure they'll find a few buyers for this kit....just wait, starting in a few weeks to a month we'll be seeing new people joining the club looking for a good donor chassis for thier new conversion project

i'm sure we'll also see a few more homebrew conversions as well..some will look professional, others will look hacked....

So the kit comes with the radiator package, or is that separate? Your ad states 10 pieces, and lists out the parts - but not the radiator!?!?

Shit. I just KNEW it was going to be more expensive than the V8 conversion, even including less special bits and pieces. So much for a budget conversion. And no, I can't really "roll my own."

QUOTE (Travis Neff @ Jun 17 2005, 01:33 PM)

So the kit comes with the radiator package, or is that separate? Your ad states 10 pieces, and lists out the parts - but not the radiator!?!?

radiator is sold separate.

QUOTE (FriarJohn @ Jun 17 2005, 01:37 PM)

Shit. I just KNEW it was going to be more expensive than the V8 conversion, even including less special bits and pieces. So much for a budget conversion. And no, I can't really "roll my own."

this kit is actually $130 less than the v8 when you take clutch components into concideration. Remember how affordable the subie engines are. my 2004 400 mile wrx turbo engine cost me $1200, ecu $500 $ wiring harness $500. and no ecu tuning required for pre 2005 computers!

I disagree. $2K sounds like a pretty good price. Adapter and flywheel alone from Kennedy is, what, $500-700? Clutch is another $500-ish. There's your first grand or so. $800-1000 for the engine mounting hardware is a bit steep, but not hugely so. If you can't weld, it would cost a fair bit to have someone else make it for you. If you can produce nice units for less, I'd invite you to make them and set up shop.

I'll also disagree with your math. Getting to $8K is really a stretch. $2K for the RH kit, plus an engine at $500-2000 (let's just call it $2K), plus an exhaust (which is not expensive, as it's pretty simple, so let's say $500 to have it custom fabbed), plus maybe $1K for an aftermarket ECU assuming you don't get an ECU with your engine (which, for $2K, you should). Looks like $5500 minus rad, which could be done for $200 or less using Scott's example. Find a local $500 engine at a wrecker, use the Vanagon examples on the ECU, and you could do this for under $4K.

Battery relocated? looks like the intercooler takes it's place.

QUOTE (Travis Neff @ Jun 17 2005, 01:47 PM)

Battery relocated? looks like the intercooler takes it's place.

my battery tray rusted away decades ago so it was not an issue. not that I had a choice though, unless you go with an aftermarket intercooler that is about the only spot it will fit. why keep your heavy battery up high and in the back any way? we usually put them in the front trunk.

one advantage with the Subaru conversion is that a few companies offer basicly plug-n-play boards for the ECU which allows you to to fully control the ECU with your laptop or pendant...........

QUOTE

I disagree. $2K sounds like a pretty good price. Adapter and flywheel alone from Kennedy is, what, $500-700? Clutch is another $500-ish. There's your first grand or so. $800-1000 for the engine mounting hardware is a bit steep, but not hugely so. If you can't weld, it would cost a fair bit to have someone else make it for you. If you can produce nice units for less, I'd invite you to make them and set up shop.

Actually the quote I got from them when I was looking at the adapter kit was $450. The clutch was another $350-$450 I believe. So you are correct, probably $800 for the clutch and adapter. If you shop around though you can get better deals on clutches.

QUOTE

I'll also disagree with your math. Getting to $8K is really a stretch. $2K for the RH kit, plus an engine at $500-2000 (let's just call it $2K), plus an exhaust (which is not expensive, as it's pretty simple, so let's say $500 to have it custom fabbed), plus maybe $1K for an aftermarket ECU assuming you don't get an ECU with your engine (which, for $2K, you should). Looks like $5500 minus rad, which could be done for $200 or less using Scott's example. Find a local $500 engine at a wrecker, use the Vanagon examples on the ECU, and you could do this for under $4K.

I agree with your example, but to do Scott's radiator setup required a reasonable amount of welding as well as cutting up of the engine surround. If you are going to go through all that hassle, you may well be the kind of person to weld up your own engine support bar as well. (giant U shape basically)

Finding a WRX engine for $500 would amaze me. I'm sure someone will find one for that much but from what I've seen the engines go for at least $1000 typically. I figure if you are going to spend a lot of money on a conversion you will want to ensure you have a good engine. So I'm not so sure a $500 engine is all that realistic for someone spending a few thousand on other parts. (this is just my logic though, mostly opinion)

-Tony

my ecu cost $500, engine was $1200. also there is no welding required for the renegade radiator install. or the rest of the kit for that matter.

i have 2700 in mine. which includes a good used stock clutch, all exhaust and a new stock suby radiator.

i paid 1500 for my complete and i mean everything including the full stock exhaust 60 k mile engine ( that included shipping too )

as for radiators i still think the best way to do the radiator is to use the stock radiator from the car the motor comes from, that way you know flow and size are matched, my new suby radiator cost me 179 dollars. as for engine bay cooling it works on my 2.5 liter na, i just spent 1 hour in stop to 10 mph traffic and my second fan would turn on and off on its own ( ecu controlled ) . but i would never try it with a turbo.

also moving the engine forward is something i thought off to get the intake to clear, but it was just as easy to flip the intake. now i know what it takes i could do it in an hour including flipping the alt.

i do plan on selling my engine bar design and an instuction manual that i am working on for about 500, it will also include an engine bay radiator frame ( or 50 bucks less with out )

i was thinking about selling a complete kit with wiring harness, engine mount, exhaust, intake parts, for about 1500 to 2 grand and i would even do the alt and intake mod if some one shipped those part to me ( lower end if they dont ). now i would not supply a clutch due to they can be found cheap enough already why have me mark it upand no radiator becuase they can be picked up locally.

so figure with my kit lets say the partial

1500 engine
500 engine bar and manual
200 radiator
100 fans
500 kep plate and fly wheel
300 misc

total 3100 and about 80 to 120 hours

full kit
1500 engine
1500 kit
200 radiator
100 fans
500 kep plate
200 misc

4000 and 40 hours

edit this is all for a na motor and no clutch which would add about 300

For some, the cost of this kit seems too high, I personally think that it's reasonable for now. The various V8 kits have sold long enough that they're no longer re-couping the intial development time. For those people out there that would make their own, I suggest that they do it, but please don't copy someone else's design unless the developer say it's OK. There's a limited number of companies/individuals trying to develop new products for our cars, and if they take the time to work out the kinks on an idea/product and their work is ripped off, they'll drop out and move on to more profitable endevours. Renegade, Desert Hybrids, Simpson radiators, Jake's T4's, etc., all are accused of overpricing their intellectual property. There's not many people making an honest living on 914's, most cover other areas as well. We're most of their 914 customer base, and I for one, appreciate their commitment.

Just my $.02
Eric

PS: I could have done my conversion cheaper than the RH full monty, but I get plenty of comments on how well it turned out. For me, money well spent.

I considered the Subaru transplant and I think the kit price is pretty fair. I am putting a rotary engine in my car and bought the RH radiator to keep it cool (cost around $1100 if I remember right). When you add the clutch, flywheel and adapter plate to my build I would close to their kit cost.

On another note, I also just bought a 1993 RX7 and am purchasing an Apexi Power FC stand alone EMS for it. The 3rd Generation RX7 guys swear by it and I had a very knowledgeable friend who toured a bunch of the high end Japenese tuner shops in Japan who also swear by it (and Motec of course). The nice thing about the Power FC is that it plugs into the stock wiring harness and there is very little cutting to do. I just noticed that the Power FC comes for a WRX:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...&category=33596

Perhaps those of you who are using the stock wiring harness and are thinking of getting a stock ECU might want to consider this option if you want to go to a stand alone EMS. What do you think?

i also have a wrx powered 914 it runs a wolf ems (version4 which is fully programable) r33 gts skyline intercooler, 300zx ballbearing gt28 turbocharger and believe it or not an automatic 4sp gearbox, this is the first stage we have no dyno printouts or 1/4 mile times as yet but believe it should be a ball tearer , the car hasnt as yet been road driven however it does run and produces boost straight from idle, the car also has 911 front struts and brakes ,911 16x8 & 16x7s ,the guards have been pumped out approx 100mm front and rear.
if anyone wants pics contact me onporscheboy914@hotmail.com as i would be glad to share.
one of the other 914s on my list also sports a 270kw wrx sti race engine and 6speed box also with wolf ems amd 10in rear boots but is for race only.

banksyinoz,

why not just post them here?

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jun 17 2005, 12:42 PM)

no pictures of the engine mount or instructions until they get the legal/paperwork stuff out of the way to help distract copy-cats....

Considering the design, manufacturing headaches, liability, and having to deal with a "wide" range of consumers this is a good price! Of course you will receive a kit that may have bugs to be worked out but that's the price of being one of the first.

Anyone really know if a conversion kit can be copy protected? I am just thinking ahead about my Audi conversion and the possibility of marketing a kit.

QUOTE (Neo914 @ Jun 17 2005, 09:08 PM)

Anyone really know if a conversion kit can be copy protected? I am just thinking ahead about my Audi conversion and the possibility of marketing a kit.

Unless you are BiGCorP Inc., it's not very cost effective, neither is fighting an upshoot copy-cat.. all they have to do is change one thing, and you have the burden of proving that it isn't different enough, to not step on your... dare I say.. intelectual property.

You'd be hard pressed finding a part of your conversion you could call your own.. more likely someone already that one..


M

QUOTE

i also have a wrx powered 914 it runs a wolf ems (version4 which is fully programable) r33 gts skyline intercooler, 300zx ballbearing gt28 turbocharger and believe it or not an automatic 4sp gearbox

i thought I read that the autobox supposed to be able to handle more power? is this true?? I wish I could find the article that the tuner is featured in....

pictures would be great of your car if you don't mind posting them (have to do one at a time, but we don't mind )

oh yea, welcome

QUOTE (redshift @ Jun 17 2005, 05:13 PM)

QUOTE (Neo914 @ Jun 17 2005, 09:08 PM) Anyone really know if a conversion kit can be copy protected?  I am just thinking ahead about my Audi conversion and the possibility of marketing a kit. Unless you are BiGCorP Inc., it's not very cost effective, neither is fighting an upshoot copy-cat.. all they have to do is change one thing, and you have the burden of proving that it isn't different enough, to not step on your... dare I say.. intelectual property. You'd be hard pressed finding a part of your conversion you could call your own.. more likely someone already that one.. M

I dealt first hand with IP litigation...depositions and all.

Low market and margins aren't worth the buying the legal protection. crap, I'm answering my own question.

QUOTE (banksyinoz @ Jun 17 2005, 03:56 PM)

i also have a wrx powered 914 it runs a wolf ems (version4 which is fully programable) r33 gts skyline intercooler, 300zx ballbearing gt28 turbocharger and believe it or not an automatic 4sp gearbox...

You Ausies are always doing the coolest stuff with cars. I wish we had more of that culture in the USA (like it was back in the '50s for example).

-Ben M.

Bankysy contacted me a few days ago and added this photo of his ride. I encouraged him to particiapte here....

Looks like a sweet ride. Right hand driver, too!

Doesn't surprise me; there a bit weird up north. I'm off to far north queensland (or effin Q as its colloquially called) with the bride tomorrow for a weeks r and r (she reads, I play golf). I'll take the camera.

How

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jun 17 2005, 05:41 PM)

QUOTE i also have a wrx powered 914 it runs a wolf ems (version4 which is fully programable) r33 gts skyline intercooler, 300zx ballbearing gt28 turbocharger and believe it or not an automatic 4sp gearbox i thought I read that the autobox supposed to be able to handle more power? is this true?? I wish I could find the article that the tuner is featured in.... pictures would be great of your car if you don't mind posting them (have to do one at a time, but we don't mind ) oh yea, welcome

a company known here in oz as rigoli performance (two brothers v&e rigoli) have some very potent subaru engines in their drag cars running autos try looking them up just remember .com.au

the pics r crappy but its only a phonecamera the crale that holds the whole thing in place was nothing more than 2"x2" heavy wall box section &2"angle

i believe that if anyone can build something in their shed with their own tools then good luck if they want to know how to do it then i will gladly tell them what ive done.
i know many will not appreciate the things that have been done to this car but who wants to be boring , i would like to build an original one also maybe a gt look alike

the computer that was used was a "wolf " it runs everything apart from the auto however the program has all the trims plus 5 extra aux outputs combined with the handset it is one of the better ones available here in oz i am not sure if it can b plugged straight in yet but can be wired up easily

ok i'm sold on this 300+ hp porcharu!! i've checked the junk yards and the motors are way up there i was quoted 4500 for a 2004 with 16000 mi. on it with the wire harness and computer!! i guess the east coast is more expensive or it's who you know or who you ????. but i'll keep looking. in the mean time i have a 2.0 with carbs and 1000 miles and over $8000 in to it i'm looking to sell to help with the cost of the conversion. any ideas i don't want a total loss on the 2.0.

QUOTE (firstknight13 @ Jun 18 2005, 07:22 PM)

ok i'm sold on this 300+ hp porcharu!! i've checked the junk yards and the motors are way up there i was quoted 4500 for a 2004 with 16000 mi. on it with the wire harness and computer!! i guess the east coast is more expensive or it's who you know or who you ????. but i'll keep looking. in the mean time i have a 2.0 with carbs and 1000 miles and over $8000 in to it i'm looking to sell to help with the cost of the conversion. any ideas i don't want a total loss on the 2.0.

If you really want an STi engine, then you have to pay for it. 300hp isn't going to be cheap no matter how you do it. However, non-turbo EJ25 engines are under $1K, and that's 165hp, or more than a Jake Raby 2270 Type IV will get you ($5-7K).

You can get a pretty hot (250hp) Soob engine for much less than $4500 if you look around. Check some of the Subaru websites.

okay, get a standard wrx turbo... stock 227 hp and i have heard that by taking out the cat that goes before the turbo gives 30 hp. so now you are to about 250 or so. then getting in to some custom tuning parts like chips and playing with boost controlers getting 275 should be pretty easy. i dont think you would notice 25 hp when you are at this level.

The stock WRX (2.0 EJ20T) makes 227 HP and if you remove the cats (2 after the turbo and one 'pre-cat' in the uppipe) it adds roughly 30 horsepower. Tuning can get you another 30. The WRXs are tuned very conservatively from the factory so freeing up the exhaust flow and tuning makes a big difference. You'll see similar increases in power with the EJ25T STi engine.

I would love to have either in a 914.

Oh yeah, removing the 3 cats and tuning the car adds noticeable power but the best change is the spool-up of the turbo. It kicks in much sooner and it pulls smoother.