Full Version: Michellin sucks
Just imagine how many millions Japanese and Asians wake up in the middle of the night to watch that fiasco on TV..........
Big Show... Big Bussiness... Big Ego's...
I've been reading the news articles, and the press releases from all the sides.
I really don't blame Ferrari, Jordan or Minardi for fielding their cars. No, Ferrari did not veto anything, they simply said that they'd abide by whatever decision the FIA made. They came to the race with the right equipment. Michelin blew it, big time. Furthermore, the Michelin shod teams were offered the chance to run on other tires, and to change tires durring the race, but apparently they felt that was an "imposistion" on them and chose not to run instead. They could have run, with alternate tires that they changed frequently and suffered the penalties that came with it. They chose not too, and I can't really blame them either. Of course a chicane was inappropriate, but I agree, -something- should have been done to allow the race to continue without placing the driver's at undue risk.
Bridgestone has been behind the curve for half a season, fielding cars with obviously inferior tires. Did they throw up this level of a stink? No. Granted, it wasn't as blatant a safety issue, but nonetheless, it wasn't made into political theater.
And come on. Michelin blew it catastrophically. If they can't supply tires that can even last more than 10 laps, that's inexcusable. Geez, they've been running at the that track for how long? I know it was the resurfacing that probably changed things, but if Michelin's tires were so close to the raged edge that a change in surface in one high speed turn reduces an 80+ lap finsihing tire to a safety risk after only 10 laps then that's obviously putting the driver's life at risk already. They (Michelin) cut it too close, and are going to suffer for it.
Michelin helped to ruin the USGP, but the origin of that problem goes right up the sewer pipe to the top. The one-tire rule was absurd to begin with, and while Kimi's massive failure in Germany should have already been enough to highlight that issue, this will most certainly have serious repercussions on the one-tire rule, and unfortunately for Michelin, their future in Formula 1 as well...
It's a sad, sad day for F1, A dark day for F1 in the USA. And darker still for the world's perception of American fans. Throwing debris onto the racetrack, that's inexcusable. That fellow they caught on camera hucking a bottle from the trash can, they should find him, and charge him with reckless endangerment at the very least. Or better yet, fire a water bottle at him at 200 mph and see if he likes how it feels...
Interesting enough, I just heard from a little bird that another tire manufacturer is going to be make a bid for building F1 tires next year... Well, the door is wide open now.
I thought Michael was properly subdued at the podium. And while I felt it was inapropriate for Monteiro to celebrate quite so much, can you really blame him? What are the odds that a rookie from Portugal is going to find himself on the Podium of a F1 race behind the likes of Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello? If he had made his way to the podium durring a crash filled race in Monoco, with only six finishers, no one would begrudge him the least. Still, a little less fist pumping would have been better given the circumstances.
-Josh2
I've been reading the news articles, and the press releases from all the sides.
I really don't blame Ferrari, Jordan or Minardi for fielding their cars. No, Ferrari did not veto anything, they simply said that they'd abide by whatever decision the FIA made. They came to the race with the right equipment. Michelin blew it, big time. Furthermore, the Michelin shod teams were offered the chance to run on other tires, and to change tires durring the race, but apparently they felt that was an "imposistion" on them and chose not to run instead. They could have run, with alternate tires that they changed frequently and suffered the penalties that came with it. They chose not too, and I can't really blame them either. Of course a chicane was inappropriate, but I agree, -something- should have been done to allow the race to continue without placing the driver's at undue risk.
Bridgestone has been behind the curve for half a season, fielding cars with obviously inferior tires. Did they throw up this level of a stink? No. Granted, it wasn't as blatant a safety issue, but nonetheless, it wasn't made into political theater.
And come on. Michelin blew it catastrophically. If they can't supply tires that can even last more than 10 laps, that's inexcusable. Geez, they've been running at the that track for how long? I know it was the resurfacing that probably changed things, but if Michelin's tires were so close to the raged edge that a change in surface in one high speed turn reduces an 80+ lap finsihing tire to a safety risk after only 10 laps then that's obviously putting the driver's life at risk already. They (Michelin) cut it too close, and are going to suffer for it.
Michelin helped to ruin the USGP, but the origin of that problem goes right up the sewer pipe to the top. The one-tire rule was absurd to begin with, and while Kimi's massive failure in Germany should have already been enough to highlight that issue, this will most certainly have serious repercussions on the one-tire rule, and unfortunately for Michelin, their future in Formula 1 as well...
It's a sad, sad day for F1, A dark day for F1 in the USA. And darker still for the world's perception of American fans. Throwing debris onto the racetrack, that's inexcusable. That fellow they caught on camera hucking a bottle from the trash can, they should find him, and charge him with reckless endangerment at the very least. Or better yet, fire a water bottle at him at 200 mph and see if he likes how it feels...
Interesting enough, I just heard from a little bird that another tire manufacturer is going to be make a bid for building F1 tires next year... Well, the door is wide open now.
I thought Michael was properly subdued at the podium. And while I felt it was inapropriate for Monteiro to celebrate quite so much, can you really blame him? What are the odds that a rookie from Portugal is going to find himself on the Podium of a F1 race behind the likes of Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello? If he had made his way to the podium durring a crash filled race in Monoco, with only six finishers, no one would begrudge him the least. Still, a little less fist pumping would have been better given the circumstances.
-Josh2
From the FIA's website:
2005 UNITED STATES GRAND PRIX
20.06.2005
Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate to clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.
At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess. However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane.
The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres. They did not need to slow down. The Michelin teams’ lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One. It must also be remembered that the FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that “tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances” (see correspondence attached).
A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tyres optimised for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally – from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting. It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures.
The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.
What about the American fans? What about Formula One fans world-wide? Rather than boycott the race the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13. The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race. As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport.
It should also be made clear that Formula One Management and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as commercial entities, can have no role in the enforcement of the rules.
To read the correspondence between the FIA and all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1 & 2, 2005, please Click Here.
2005 UNITED STATES GRAND PRIX
20.06.2005
Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate to clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.
At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess. However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane.
The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres. They did not need to slow down. The Michelin teams’ lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One. It must also be remembered that the FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that “tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances” (see correspondence attached).
A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tyres optimised for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally – from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting. It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures.
The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.
What about the American fans? What about Formula One fans world-wide? Rather than boycott the race the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13. The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race. As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport.
It should also be made clear that Formula One Management and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as commercial entities, can have no role in the enforcement of the rules.
To read the correspondence between the FIA and all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1 & 2, 2005, please Click Here.
Yep, I read that one... Interesting read!
Clearly, FIA is lying through it's teeth
Michelin or the Michelin-teams never expected not to be penalized
The teams asked for the chicane and were prepared to start at the back of the field or waive championship points completely for this race. They just wanted to go out and give the crowd a run for their money, but safely
The fact that FIA claims that an alteration of the track would be dangerous...
What a bunch 'o crap!
What could be more dangerous than the concrete wall that was already there???
Bottom line... FIA fucked it up
Everybody (except Ferrari) was ready to save the day for the spectators
Clearly, FIA is lying through it's teeth
Michelin or the Michelin-teams never expected not to be penalized
The teams asked for the chicane and were prepared to start at the back of the field or waive championship points completely for this race. They just wanted to go out and give the crowd a run for their money, but safely
The fact that FIA claims that an alteration of the track would be dangerous...
What a bunch 'o crap!
What could be more dangerous than the concrete wall that was already there???
Bottom line... FIA fucked it up
Everybody (except Ferrari) was ready to save the day for the spectators
actually, it's not a concrete barrier there, it was a SAFER barrier.
So can some explain to me why adding a chicane to the track would make the michelin tires safer?
| QUOTE |
| So can some explain to me why adding a chicane to the track would make the michelin tires safer? |
apparently the Michelins could not take the loadings at that fastest part of the track.. a chicane before 13 would have lowered entry/exit speeds and of course lowered top speeds and entry speed into 1
This incident reminds me of the NASCAR tire wars a few years ago. Hoosier offered a tire that was much faster than the Goodyears everyone was using. This forced Goodyear to come up with a faster but less reliable compound. Hoosier responded with a less reliable tire of their own. After several crashes and at least one death,(Neil Bonnet, my favorite driver at that time) NASCAR eventually decided to give Goodyear exclusive rights.
As long as there is competition manufacturers will push the limits and sometimes go over. I'm sure there was a better way to handle yesterdays' problem, but at least no one died.
As long as there is competition manufacturers will push the limits and sometimes go over. I'm sure there was a better way to handle yesterdays' problem, but at least no one died.
Okay bitches I'm back!
Lapi,
Some of what you say is true, a few things that are not:
Ecclefuck sold the TV rights after one season of lower profits. He sold the rights to a group of bankers as you say for a PROFIT, not because he had to.
American lawyers??, What The Fuck? Do you know the Italians are still trying to hang someones ass for Ayrton Senna's death, please, The entire world has gotten entrenched in legal ramblings (Jeroen, the netherlands isn't any better) so someone can pay, bottom line racing is dangerous, and you can die doing it. Read The bottom of my post. We are living in a world of people that just can't take responsibility for their own actions.
As for this weekends debacle. many of you make good points and many of you are rationalizing occurances to make your point fact. There are many issues here.
1. Did Michelin perform "due diligence"in testing their tires at this facility. Answer NO, they did not send any top teams to Indy to test.
2.Did Bridgestone send proper test teams, yes. How do I know this, their tire did not blow up!!!!
3. Was Michelin's primary tire ready for competition? NO. Was their back up tire ready for competition, NO.
4. Was Bridgestones work completed and did their tire perform as designed, YES
This sums this entire problem up in these Q&A. Anything else is Bullshit. It's like saying "I didn't do my homework last night, so can I have the class period to do it and still get full credit" I would hope the answer is "NO"
Some of you are saying the FIA is the culprit?
1. Did the FIA design the tires that would not last the race, NO
2. Did the FIA give Michelin options so they could race, YES. Either slow down in turn 13 or bring your cars in before the Michelin engineers have indicated the tire will fail, and change it. We (FIA)will allow you to do this, WITHOUT PENALTY!.
3. Did the FIA enforce it's rules as written, YES
4. Regardless if all the teams asked for the chicane, two reasons it is impossible. a. The insurance for the event will be set in stone as for the confirguration, this is not changeable. b.It is not fair to the competing teams that did their homework and came prepared. How would you like to be Mike that did your homework, when Johnny did not, Then because Johnny did not do his, the teacher changed the test, You would be Bullshit, and so would I. I don't care who was watching/spectating the test.
As for the teams, they have one entity to blame, Michelin, they are the start, they have all the blame, they ARE RESPONSIBLE. Thinking anything else is assinine. As for Coulthard, only guy in the whole paddock with a set of balls.
One last thing: Last year during the Road Atlanta AMA superbike race, it was a known fact that the Dunlops on Mat Mladins Suzuki GSXR1000 would not go the distance, Mat raced anyway, and had a blow out at over 170 mph. He rode it out and survived with no injuries, he was lucky, now thats a racer, whether you like him or not, makes no difference, he is willing to sacrifice everything to win. Carl Fogarty was asked many years ago, "are the any hard men in World Superbike"? "No, well maybe Jim Moodie." Fogarty said, "don't get me wrong, there's alot of PURSE THROWING, but no hard men".This sums up most of the pretty boys in F1, sans a few.
Last LAST thing: No one has spoken of the significant rumors about a breakaway of teams from the FIA. Maybe this is just the beginning. And this revolt is only the start. As for Michelin ruining thousands of peoples USGP, they did, I will have zero ability to make this right for anyone. However, my only way to communicate with Michelin is to not buy their product. And this is my course of action. If fact, I just ordered a new set of Bridgestones for my sisters Accord about 3 hours ago. She was do for them, The old tires, Michelin.
Erik Madsen
Lapi,
Some of what you say is true, a few things that are not:
Ecclefuck sold the TV rights after one season of lower profits. He sold the rights to a group of bankers as you say for a PROFIT, not because he had to.
American lawyers??, What The Fuck? Do you know the Italians are still trying to hang someones ass for Ayrton Senna's death, please, The entire world has gotten entrenched in legal ramblings (Jeroen, the netherlands isn't any better) so someone can pay, bottom line racing is dangerous, and you can die doing it. Read The bottom of my post. We are living in a world of people that just can't take responsibility for their own actions.
As for this weekends debacle. many of you make good points and many of you are rationalizing occurances to make your point fact. There are many issues here.
1. Did Michelin perform "due diligence"in testing their tires at this facility. Answer NO, they did not send any top teams to Indy to test.
2.Did Bridgestone send proper test teams, yes. How do I know this, their tire did not blow up!!!!
3. Was Michelin's primary tire ready for competition? NO. Was their back up tire ready for competition, NO.
4. Was Bridgestones work completed and did their tire perform as designed, YES
This sums this entire problem up in these Q&A. Anything else is Bullshit. It's like saying "I didn't do my homework last night, so can I have the class period to do it and still get full credit" I would hope the answer is "NO"
Some of you are saying the FIA is the culprit?
1. Did the FIA design the tires that would not last the race, NO
2. Did the FIA give Michelin options so they could race, YES. Either slow down in turn 13 or bring your cars in before the Michelin engineers have indicated the tire will fail, and change it. We (FIA)will allow you to do this, WITHOUT PENALTY!.
3. Did the FIA enforce it's rules as written, YES
4. Regardless if all the teams asked for the chicane, two reasons it is impossible. a. The insurance for the event will be set in stone as for the confirguration, this is not changeable. b.It is not fair to the competing teams that did their homework and came prepared. How would you like to be Mike that did your homework, when Johnny did not, Then because Johnny did not do his, the teacher changed the test, You would be Bullshit, and so would I. I don't care who was watching/spectating the test.
As for the teams, they have one entity to blame, Michelin, they are the start, they have all the blame, they ARE RESPONSIBLE. Thinking anything else is assinine. As for Coulthard, only guy in the whole paddock with a set of balls.
One last thing: Last year during the Road Atlanta AMA superbike race, it was a known fact that the Dunlops on Mat Mladins Suzuki GSXR1000 would not go the distance, Mat raced anyway, and had a blow out at over 170 mph. He rode it out and survived with no injuries, he was lucky, now thats a racer, whether you like him or not, makes no difference, he is willing to sacrifice everything to win. Carl Fogarty was asked many years ago, "are the any hard men in World Superbike"? "No, well maybe Jim Moodie." Fogarty said, "don't get me wrong, there's alot of PURSE THROWING, but no hard men".This sums up most of the pretty boys in F1, sans a few.
Last LAST thing: No one has spoken of the significant rumors about a breakaway of teams from the FIA. Maybe this is just the beginning. And this revolt is only the start. As for Michelin ruining thousands of peoples USGP, they did, I will have zero ability to make this right for anyone. However, my only way to communicate with Michelin is to not buy their product. And this is my course of action. If fact, I just ordered a new set of Bridgestones for my sisters Accord about 3 hours ago. She was do for them, The old tires, Michelin.
Erik Madsen
Eric...you echo my point of view precisely. I have been watching this unfold for over 24 hours now, have read all the involved parties' excuses, read all the message boards, seen all the interviews and concluded that the blame rests 95% with Michelin. Sure there are politics, and everyone involved is trying to spin things to suit their particular agenda, but the bottom line is Michelin was not prepared and wouldn't take responsibility......so the fans and F1 suffer. I'll boycott Michelin pdoducts for moral reasons, not because they are necessarily inferior. Hats off to DC!
Michelin tires were on the the 1-2 finishing cars at LeMans this very same weekend.
And there were apparently no issues with the Michelin tires at the Canadian GP, I wonder what happened?
The green light should never have been turned on, but I have no idea how they would explain no race at all?
And there were apparently no issues with the Michelin tires at the Canadian GP, I wonder what happened?
The green light should never have been turned on, but I have no idea how they would explain no race at all?
Simple, Michelin+French=surrender....
Next question....
Next question....
Erik, regardless of whether Bernie sold the TV rights for a profit or not, he no longer controls them, and appears to have lost control of Mosley. Therefore, he's lost much of whatever control of F1 he used to enjoy.
As for the insurance angle on the chicane, this was never mentioned as a concern. Not only did the teams agree to a chicane, but Tony George and Bernie also agreed. I'm not entirely certain if the FIA even has insurance to indemnify them from action from the teams (only they would sue). The teams and each driver have their own insurance. The legal structure of the FIA basically requires that all teams agree to submit to arbitration, so the lawsuit threat is a pretty minor one.
There is, in fact, at least one precedent for a last-minute track change in adding a temp. chicane: Spa in 1994, at the foot of Eau Rouge. I forget the details of why it was added, but it was very much added at the last minute, and Bernie even brought this up during the discussions. This whole "we can negotiate the rules" business is horseshit, plain and simple.
Michelin wouldn't warrant the tires as safe, and that would have exposed the teams to potential legal action from the drivers (or their estates). No reason was given for the teams not accepting the tire changing offer. I don't accept the "just slow down" offer. That's just absurd. Slow down how much? For how long? No one knew the answer to this. No one really knew how long the tires would last at full speed either, which may be why the teams didn't accept the tire changing offer. Michelin may also have not brought enough tires to change even one left rear 6 times for 14 cars. Indeed, the FIA specifically enjoins the tire makers from bringing "too many" tires. The teams are, after all, only allowed to use two sets during the entire weekend, with two types allow, so four sets of tires per car. They'd already used one set for practice, so even with the extras flown in, Michelin may have only had another 4 sets for each car. We don't know how many they brought in (likely only one set per car, since presumably that would be all they'd need because of the one-tire rule), so even if they HAD accepted the tire changing, it's likely we would have had only 6 finishers, and perhaps a very serious accident or two along the way.
The "due diligence" angle is also invalid. NONE of the teams make test visits to EVERY track. Indeed, they're not ALLOWED to under the limited testing rules. Michelin doesn't make testing visits to all tracks, and neither do Bridgestone.
I don't excuse Michelin. They f-ed up, plain and simple. That's not the issue. The issue was how the FIA responded to an unprecented problem. In my view, they didn't have to bend very far to have a full grid, and the teams bent VERY far to try to make the race happen.
As for the insurance angle on the chicane, this was never mentioned as a concern. Not only did the teams agree to a chicane, but Tony George and Bernie also agreed. I'm not entirely certain if the FIA even has insurance to indemnify them from action from the teams (only they would sue). The teams and each driver have their own insurance. The legal structure of the FIA basically requires that all teams agree to submit to arbitration, so the lawsuit threat is a pretty minor one.
There is, in fact, at least one precedent for a last-minute track change in adding a temp. chicane: Spa in 1994, at the foot of Eau Rouge. I forget the details of why it was added, but it was very much added at the last minute, and Bernie even brought this up during the discussions. This whole "we can negotiate the rules" business is horseshit, plain and simple.
Michelin wouldn't warrant the tires as safe, and that would have exposed the teams to potential legal action from the drivers (or their estates). No reason was given for the teams not accepting the tire changing offer. I don't accept the "just slow down" offer. That's just absurd. Slow down how much? For how long? No one knew the answer to this. No one really knew how long the tires would last at full speed either, which may be why the teams didn't accept the tire changing offer. Michelin may also have not brought enough tires to change even one left rear 6 times for 14 cars. Indeed, the FIA specifically enjoins the tire makers from bringing "too many" tires. The teams are, after all, only allowed to use two sets during the entire weekend, with two types allow, so four sets of tires per car. They'd already used one set for practice, so even with the extras flown in, Michelin may have only had another 4 sets for each car. We don't know how many they brought in (likely only one set per car, since presumably that would be all they'd need because of the one-tire rule), so even if they HAD accepted the tire changing, it's likely we would have had only 6 finishers, and perhaps a very serious accident or two along the way.
The "due diligence" angle is also invalid. NONE of the teams make test visits to EVERY track. Indeed, they're not ALLOWED to under the limited testing rules. Michelin doesn't make testing visits to all tracks, and neither do Bridgestone.
I don't excuse Michelin. They f-ed up, plain and simple. That's not the issue. The issue was how the FIA responded to an unprecented problem. In my view, they didn't have to bend very far to have a full grid, and the teams bent VERY far to try to make the race happen.
the only teams that "bent" were the Michellin teams...they were the teams that had something to gain by a compromise.
Michellin is 100% to blame for this...no one else.
Michellin is 100% to blame for this...no one else.
Due diligence is testing at all circuits by different teams, you are right not all teams are able to test a each given circuit. But there was testing for Michelin at Indy. But the data was either useless or not looked at. However, by Michelins own admission,they did not bring a second tire following the rules "a second tire must be available that will offer less performance but be absolutely reliable"
As for The FIA and Ecclefuck, you are aware the FIA and F1 are separate entities? Ecclejunk in control of Mosley, it certainly does not look like it to me. One point of interest is Tony George (via Chitwood) claims no knowledge of the request for a chicane to be installed? Now, I think this is probably BS, I think he knew and the teams would have put him on alert in case they got their way with the FIA.
I don't disagree that slowing down for turn 13 is absurd, but so is michelin not fulfilling their contractual obligations. As for coming in without penalty to change any tire they felt they needed to at will. This IS a solution to the problem. As for Ferrari not willing to allow the Chicane. I think if the shoe was on the other foot, would 7 other teams assist Ferrari to compete. I do not think they would. You forget, some of these teams have 100m+ dollar budgets. Any advantage is exploited, remember traction control. I also remember the Ferrari's with tire woes earlier this year, and I did'nt hear of anyone changing the course or rules to allow them to compete without incident.
I think the tire rules are ridiculous! This is not F1 it's F1 endurance. It's a joke.
All we are going to see in the next few days is finger pointing. Michelin will have to get the monkey off their back, and the finger will point at Indy. Ecclestone will point the finger at Mosley and the team managers and Michelin. Michelin will kiss Eccleballs ass because they want to be the next single tire supplier to F1. Joke.
As for Ferrari, Michael will most likely step down as driver representative for his lack of support, or perceived lack of support.
There will be no refunds, as Tony G will not give anything back. Champcar will offer free admission to their next race with a USGP ticket stub, using it as a marketing ploy to gain new fans to champcar racing.
Also a new sanctioning body will be formed and several teams will defect with Eccleanus out of the picture, tracks will be hard to come by and the sport will suffer. but thats just the stuff out of my crystal balls, how about yours?
Erik Madsen
As for The FIA and Ecclefuck, you are aware the FIA and F1 are separate entities? Ecclejunk in control of Mosley, it certainly does not look like it to me. One point of interest is Tony George (via Chitwood) claims no knowledge of the request for a chicane to be installed? Now, I think this is probably BS, I think he knew and the teams would have put him on alert in case they got their way with the FIA.
I don't disagree that slowing down for turn 13 is absurd, but so is michelin not fulfilling their contractual obligations. As for coming in without penalty to change any tire they felt they needed to at will. This IS a solution to the problem. As for Ferrari not willing to allow the Chicane. I think if the shoe was on the other foot, would 7 other teams assist Ferrari to compete. I do not think they would. You forget, some of these teams have 100m+ dollar budgets. Any advantage is exploited, remember traction control. I also remember the Ferrari's with tire woes earlier this year, and I did'nt hear of anyone changing the course or rules to allow them to compete without incident.
I think the tire rules are ridiculous! This is not F1 it's F1 endurance. It's a joke.
All we are going to see in the next few days is finger pointing. Michelin will have to get the monkey off their back, and the finger will point at Indy. Ecclestone will point the finger at Mosley and the team managers and Michelin. Michelin will kiss Eccleballs ass because they want to be the next single tire supplier to F1. Joke.
As for Ferrari, Michael will most likely step down as driver representative for his lack of support, or perceived lack of support.
There will be no refunds, as Tony G will not give anything back. Champcar will offer free admission to their next race with a USGP ticket stub, using it as a marketing ploy to gain new fans to champcar racing.
Also a new sanctioning body will be formed and several teams will defect with Eccleanus out of the picture, tracks will be hard to come by and the sport will suffer. but thats just the stuff out of my crystal balls, how about yours?
Erik Madsen
| QUOTE (seanery @ Jun 21 2005, 04:13 AM) |
| the only teams that "bent" were the Michellin teams...they were the teams that had something to gain by a compromise. Michellin is 100% to blame for this...no one else. |
Agian... NOT TRUE
The Michelin teams had nothing to gain anymore
They were ready to accept any penalty the FIA/F1 deemed needed
They just wanted to run and not let down the crowds
9 out of 10 teams had agreed to the chicane (so that includes 2 b-stone teams)
Here's a quote from Paul Stodard (Minardi, which is a Bridgestone team)
| QUOTE |
| “First of all, our sincere apologies go out to the race fans, both here at Indianapolis and indeed, around the world, for the farce that took place at Indianapolis this afternoon. This really was a time when Formula One needed to put sport above politics, but sadly, this did not occur. Earlier on today, nine of the 10 competing teams had agreed that, in the interests of safety, a temporary chicane needed to be placed before the final turn, and that unless that took place, the nine teams would not compete. “This idea was rejected by FIA President, Max Mosley, and in no uncertain terms, the teams were told that, should this occur, there would be no race. This, in my opinion, is clearly not in the interests of the sport, the American public, or Formula One fans around the world. “I have complete sympathy with the Michelin teams, and can take neither satisfaction from, nor interest in, this afternoon’s race, if you can call it that. For the avoidance of doubt, Minardi only participated when it became clear that Jordan had changed its decision to compete from this morning. “I sincerely hope that valuable lessons are taken away from here today before we destroy the sport we love with politics. A solution, which would have allowed the United States Grand Prix to have proceeded unaffected today existed, but was resisted by the FIA and not supported by Ferrari, who claimed it was not their problem”. |
In spite of being bitter about this whole situation, I went ahead and renewed my tickets in hope that maybe the F1 race in Indy might be saved. We did this last year, and were treated to drive a lap around the track. Last year, we sat in a traffic jam for an hour just to get into the Speedway, then it was bumper to bumper all the way around.
Yesterday, the place was deserted. I nearly had the entire circuit to myself. Too bad the speed limit is 30 mph
If this is any indication of the public interest, the Indy race is dead.
At least if they do still run something next year, I can probably sit anywhere I damn well please....
Yesterday, the place was deserted. I nearly had the entire circuit to myself. Too bad the speed limit is 30 mph
If this is any indication of the public interest, the Indy race is dead.
At least if they do still run something next year, I can probably sit anywhere I damn well please....
how you guys can even endure sitting through a complete F1 race is beyond me.
k
k
| QUOTE (seanery @ Jun 20 2005, 07:13 PM) |
| the only teams that "bent" were the Michellin teams...they were the teams that had something to gain by a compromise. Michellin is 100% to blame for this...no one else. |
Oddly enough, the FIA itself doesn't agree with you. They released the charges against the teams, and specifically blame the TEAMS for not bringing the correct equipment, despite the fact that the teams aren't at all responsible for the tires Michelin bring to the event.
| QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Jun 21 2005, 03:19 PM) |
| how you guys can even endure sitting through a complete F1 race is beyond me. k |
We have 2 excellent F1 commentators here
They know their shit, have strong opinions and a good sense of humor
Listening to these guys alone is worth it
i'll be booking a flight promptly then. do the brown cafes televise the races? 
k
k
yeah, but they don't come with english subtitles
Jeroen,
Just take him window shopping and he will forget that he was there to see a race.
Erik
Just take him window shopping and he will forget that he was there to see a race.
Erik
btdt, 1976. all i did was window shop. i was dating a wee scotish gal so i spent my money on the necessities.
k
k
| QUOTE (Jeroen @ Jun 22 2005, 08:33 AM) |
| read em and weep http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/new...622131809.shtml |
This is funny.
Here's a guy putting jam on both sides of the toast then trying to eat it without getting his hands dirty.....oughta be in the US senate.
sorta OT...anyone have this book??
Ferrari Formula 1: Under the Skin of the Championship-Winning F1-2000 by Peter G. Wright
if so, worth getting???
sounds like an interesting book
Ferrari Formula 1: Under the Skin of the Championship-Winning F1-2000 by Peter G. Wright
if so, worth getting???
sounds like an interesting book
| QUOTE (Mueller @ Jun 22 2005, 11:40 AM) |
| sorta OT...anyone have this book?? Ferrari Formula 1: Under the Skin of the Championship-Winning F1-2000 by Peter G. Wright |
No, but I read A Mechanic's Tale, Life in the Fast Lane, by Steve Matchett, this past year and enjoyed it. It is not a great book in the sense of a classic, but it gives an idea of what a mechanics life in an F1 team is like. The author was a mechanic on the Bennetton team before and during the Scumacher years and is now one of the Speed F1 commentators.
And I will admit that I watch most F1 broadcasts, although I find the recent CBS broadcasts to be terrible relative to those presented by Speed. The CBS broadcastors made so many mistakes during the recent Canadian GP that it wasn't funny.
| QUOTE (Jeroen @ Jun 22 2005, 08:33 AM) |
| read em and weep http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/new...622131809.shtml |
Darth Mosely strikes again!!!
What was it like 6 Michelin teams that boycotted two FIA F1 2005 meetings already this year...So dont burn your bridges....Punks..The Scott Speed debut/noshow is what really pisses me off..............
Minardi
Do I need to say anymore.....
Do I need to say anymore.....
I can't say I think anyone directly involved in the whole USGP debacle is totally blameless. But I can see one standpoint of Ferrari. They had a lot to gain by running uncontested on an empty track. And even if the Michelin teams gave up all claim to points and started at the back of the grid, A Ferrari could still get tangled up with a Michelin car (that had nothing to loose), and be out the otherwise giftwrapped points that come from a nearly guranteed 1-2 finish. Was is good sportsmanship? No. But was it good tactics? Yeah. But what would have been the result if Ferrari pulled in and left Jordan in the grid. Would we have seen an even worse sham? Jordan, 1-2 in a race of 2... What would have resulted from a race that didn't happen at all?
Pip! Pip! For DC! He said he wanted to race, and he was serious. However, the driver's don't make the decisions in F1.
Wasn't it just a few years ago that the drivers called a race at California Speedway because of safety concerns? At least they did it with more advance notice, and no one "crossed".
-Josh2
Pip! Pip! For DC! He said he wanted to race, and he was serious. However, the driver's don't make the decisions in F1.
Wasn't it just a few years ago that the drivers called a race at California Speedway because of safety concerns? At least they did it with more advance notice, and no one "crossed".
-Josh2
It was Texas World Speedway. Super high banking with super high speeds. No one had EVER run an open-wheeled racer there before, and apparently little to no testing of any kind had been done before the first race weekend (this was CART, not IRL). During practice, many of the drivers complained of dizziness from having to sustain 2-3G for nearly the entire lap. CART called off the race, sent everyone home, and lawsuits ensued. Lots of fans had still showed up by that point. One could say more testing prior to the race weekend should have happened, but new tracks debut with little to no testing all the time, so it was hardly unprecedented.
DC wasn't the only one that wanted to race. Most of the drivers wanted to race. Most of the teams wanted to race. All of them recognized we can't turn the clock back to 1980 and have drivers dying constantly because the track or equipment are unsafe.
DC wasn't the only one that wanted to race. Most of the drivers wanted to race. Most of the teams wanted to race. All of them recognized we can't turn the clock back to 1980 and have drivers dying constantly because the track or equipment are unsafe.
Actually, it was Texas Motor Speedway. Not trying to pick nits, but TMS is in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. Texas World Speedway is further South near College Station. Tx World is also a high-banked superspeedway, but it hasn't had a major race in a long time (if ever?).
The whole CART attempt at a race was a real debacle, just like F1 last weekend. CART officials had been warned by more than 1 race simulation guy that TMS would be unsafe for champcars. In response, they had Christian Fittipaldi run a 1/2 day test in the dead of winter. Speeds were slow, so the CART officials left convinced that there wouldn't be a problem, ignoring that the test wasn't valid for a number of reasons:
1. cold temps led to downforce/drag levels that wouldn't be representative of race conditions
2. a single car test didn't have the aero tow effects of multi-car packs
3. with nothing to gain the team had no motivation to run fast, so they cranked in a lot of downforce, stuck the car to the track, pounded out a few laps, and then packed it all up to get in out of the cold
Turns out, on the race weekend, when the teams were running in real anger, speeds climbed significantly higher than those in the test -- high enough to be dangerous. CART eventually cancelled the race. It was a real black eye for the sport.
The whole CART attempt at a race was a real debacle, just like F1 last weekend. CART officials had been warned by more than 1 race simulation guy that TMS would be unsafe for champcars. In response, they had Christian Fittipaldi run a 1/2 day test in the dead of winter. Speeds were slow, so the CART officials left convinced that there wouldn't be a problem, ignoring that the test wasn't valid for a number of reasons:
1. cold temps led to downforce/drag levels that wouldn't be representative of race conditions
2. a single car test didn't have the aero tow effects of multi-car packs
3. with nothing to gain the team had no motivation to run fast, so they cranked in a lot of downforce, stuck the car to the track, pounded out a few laps, and then packed it all up to get in out of the cold
Turns out, on the race weekend, when the teams were running in real anger, speeds climbed significantly higher than those in the test -- high enough to be dangerous. CART eventually cancelled the race. It was a real black eye for the sport.
| QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jun 22 2005, 01:51 PM) |
| It was Texas World Speedway. Super high banking with super high speeds. No one had EVER run an open-wheeled racer there before, and apparently little to no testing of any kind had been done before the first race weekend (this was CART, not IRL). During practice, many of the drivers complained of dizziness from having to sustain 2-3G for nearly the entire lap. CART called off the race, sent everyone home, and lawsuits ensued. Lots of fans had still showed up by that point. One could say more testing prior to the race weekend should have happened, but new tracks debut with little to no testing all the time, so it was hardly unprecedented. DC wasn't the only one that wanted to race. Most of the drivers wanted to race. Most of the teams wanted to race. All of them recognized we can't turn the clock back to 1980 and have drivers dying constantly because the track or equipment are unsafe. |
Michael Andretti
Do I need to say anymore......................
Michelin to offer US GP refunds
From the BBC website:-
Michelin to refund US spectators
Michelin in complaint to F1 boss
Michelin has offered to refund US Grand Prix fans ahead of Wednesday's disciplinary hearing involving the seven teams that refused to race.
The teams, who all use Michelin tyres, sat out Indianapolis after the company said it could not guarantee safety.
Michelin also offered to buy 20,000 tickets for the 2006 US Grand Prix to be given to this year's spectators.
The seven teams face charges of bringing the sport into disrepute and could be docked constructors' points.
A Michelin statement read: "Michelin deeply regrets that the public was deprived of an exciting race and therefore wishes to be the first, among the different groups involved in the race, to make a strong gesture towards the spectators.
"This is an important decision, since Michelin is not at all legally bound to do this."
The Michelin gesture is likely to reduce the risk of the teams - championship leaders Renault, McLaren, Williams, Toyota, Sauber, Red Bull and BAR - from being heavily sanctioned.
The governing body will always win
Max Mosley, FIA president
F1 teams 'ready to boycott races'
The teams are also less likely to take action against any penalties at Sunday's French Grand Prix.
F1 governing body chief Max Mosley says punishment could range from a reprimand to a ban for life - but he thought it would fall between those two extremes.
But Minardi boss Paul Stoddart said it would be wrong to hand out "draconian bans" and hinted at a possible boycott.
"If it emerges that the guilt of certain teams is of a certain level, then a ban will be justified," FIA president Mosley has previously said.
"There are various other possibilities - points being deducted, a fine or reprimand."
However, Stoddart countered by claiming teams would be prepared to boycott future races if the punishment meted out was deemed unjust.
"Would we race after a penalty? I think we'd have a meeting and you wouldn't guarantee it," he said.
Any points penalties would damage the championship ambitions of Renault and McLaren, as well as Williams and Toyota in joint fourth place.
Max just wants to humiliate us. I fear this is not a battle we can fight and win
Sir Frank Williams
Sauber, BAR-Honda and Red Bull are the three others teams up before the FIA world motorsport council.
The FIA considers it would not be fair to penalise the drivers as it believes they were as much victims of the circumstances as the race organisers.
But Williams team chief Sir Frank Williams suggested that any action the teams may try to take might not be strong enough.
"It will be like trying to storm a castle armed only with bows and arrows," he told Autosport magazine.
"Max just wants to humiliate us. I fear this is not a battle we can fight and win."
The Indianapolis Motor Speedway management has yet to decide what action to take.
It could include a lawsuit against F1 rights-holder Bernie Ecclestone's Formula One Management, or cancel the contract for the 2006 race.
And organisers might sue Ecclestone for the $13.5m (£7.5m) it cost to stage the event.
The FIA has also hinted that the way out of the deadlock would be for the seven teams, plus Michelin, to reimburse the 160,000 spectators who attended the race, a gesture that would cost in the region of $16m (£9m).
From the BBC website:-
Michelin to refund US spectators
Michelin in complaint to F1 boss
Michelin has offered to refund US Grand Prix fans ahead of Wednesday's disciplinary hearing involving the seven teams that refused to race.
The teams, who all use Michelin tyres, sat out Indianapolis after the company said it could not guarantee safety.
Michelin also offered to buy 20,000 tickets for the 2006 US Grand Prix to be given to this year's spectators.
The seven teams face charges of bringing the sport into disrepute and could be docked constructors' points.
A Michelin statement read: "Michelin deeply regrets that the public was deprived of an exciting race and therefore wishes to be the first, among the different groups involved in the race, to make a strong gesture towards the spectators.
"This is an important decision, since Michelin is not at all legally bound to do this."
The Michelin gesture is likely to reduce the risk of the teams - championship leaders Renault, McLaren, Williams, Toyota, Sauber, Red Bull and BAR - from being heavily sanctioned.
The governing body will always win
Max Mosley, FIA president
F1 teams 'ready to boycott races'
The teams are also less likely to take action against any penalties at Sunday's French Grand Prix.
F1 governing body chief Max Mosley says punishment could range from a reprimand to a ban for life - but he thought it would fall between those two extremes.
But Minardi boss Paul Stoddart said it would be wrong to hand out "draconian bans" and hinted at a possible boycott.
"If it emerges that the guilt of certain teams is of a certain level, then a ban will be justified," FIA president Mosley has previously said.
"There are various other possibilities - points being deducted, a fine or reprimand."
However, Stoddart countered by claiming teams would be prepared to boycott future races if the punishment meted out was deemed unjust.
"Would we race after a penalty? I think we'd have a meeting and you wouldn't guarantee it," he said.
Any points penalties would damage the championship ambitions of Renault and McLaren, as well as Williams and Toyota in joint fourth place.
Max just wants to humiliate us. I fear this is not a battle we can fight and win
Sir Frank Williams
Sauber, BAR-Honda and Red Bull are the three others teams up before the FIA world motorsport council.
The FIA considers it would not be fair to penalise the drivers as it believes they were as much victims of the circumstances as the race organisers.
But Williams team chief Sir Frank Williams suggested that any action the teams may try to take might not be strong enough.
"It will be like trying to storm a castle armed only with bows and arrows," he told Autosport magazine.
"Max just wants to humiliate us. I fear this is not a battle we can fight and win."
The Indianapolis Motor Speedway management has yet to decide what action to take.
It could include a lawsuit against F1 rights-holder Bernie Ecclestone's Formula One Management, or cancel the contract for the 2006 race.
And organisers might sue Ecclestone for the $13.5m (£7.5m) it cost to stage the event.
The FIA has also hinted that the way out of the deadlock would be for the seven teams, plus Michelin, to reimburse the 160,000 spectators who attended the race, a gesture that would cost in the region of $16m (£9m).
Michelin is really doing the stand-up thing here. A refund for all '05 specators PLUS 20K more free tickets for the '06 race is pretty generous. Tomorrow's hearing will be very interesting. I expect Mosley to be in full tyrant mode.
Yeah, Max will be in full tyrant mode tomorrow but he is somewhat limited in his options. What's he gonna do? Exclude everyone who pulled in at Indy? And do this again? Hee hee! And adding seconds to everyone is pretty much pointless since it is only Ferrari that matters and they will largely be passed in the opening laps while their Bridgestones are still off. So it is either a loss of points or a fine. I am betting fine, but if points, then I hope the SOB does the stand up thing and make it manufacturers'points and not the drivers'.
Honestly, I have followed this story and the background through various countries and I think Michelin is the only one blameless here. They fucked up with the tires but I can't blame them for making a mistake. (Note though they do not test here though.) And they were stand up and told the teams the tires were unsafe. Good for them. So the teams could not run them safely (the FIA wouldn't allow the chicane and running 85 mph slower is itself unsafe), Ferrari was NOT stand up and objected to the chicane (as was their right, obviously) and the FIA stuck to their rules. What a bitch. For what Ferrari has taken from the sport (n.b., not "given", they have taken a hell of a lot more than they have given) they were awfully short cited, esp in their largest market. And the FIA is simply too stupid (or sucking up to Ferrari too much?) to utilize any common sense and consider the business development of F1. I mean, do they think there is more potential for F1 in the middle east or the US? Idiots.
Man, I am glad I went to see Canada and not the US.
Honestly, I have followed this story and the background through various countries and I think Michelin is the only one blameless here. They fucked up with the tires but I can't blame them for making a mistake. (Note though they do not test here though.) And they were stand up and told the teams the tires were unsafe. Good for them. So the teams could not run them safely (the FIA wouldn't allow the chicane and running 85 mph slower is itself unsafe), Ferrari was NOT stand up and objected to the chicane (as was their right, obviously) and the FIA stuck to their rules. What a bitch. For what Ferrari has taken from the sport (n.b., not "given", they have taken a hell of a lot more than they have given) they were awfully short cited, esp in their largest market. And the FIA is simply too stupid (or sucking up to Ferrari too much?) to utilize any common sense and consider the business development of F1. I mean, do they think there is more potential for F1 in the middle east or the US? Idiots.
Man, I am glad I went to see Canada and not the US.
well, that's the first thing Michellin has done right since Friday practice. It still doesn't excuse them from their stupidity, though.
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