I can't believe it. WTF. Michellin, in it's 6th year here, can't create a tire that will will finish the race? WTF.

NO FRENCHIE FUCKING TIRES FOR ANY OF MY CARS!!!

Is it Michelin or Ecclestone or Max Mosley with the FIA. This race is fucking bullshit.

Whats even more BULLSHIT is the fans throwing debris onto the track. THIS DAY.... I AM TRULY SAD TO BE REPRESENTED BY THESE FELLOW AMERICANS. IF I COULD GET ONE OF THEM IN MY HANDS RIGHT NOW, I WOULD BEAT THEM DOWN AS HARD AND AS LONG AS I COULD. THIS IS A TRAVESTY ! And an embarassment to all Americans that have paid their money to attend this race. My heart is very heavy on this day. The ramifications of this piss poor preparation by Michelin will have lasting effects.

Erik Madsen

Yes, Michelin f-ed up BIG TIME... but IMO it's the FIA that's f-ing up this event
If you have a problem, you fix it... You don't come with all your bureaucratic BS, like the FIA has done today...

They could have easily allowed Michelin to use the tires that they flew in
In exchange they could have allowed the Bridgestone teams a tirechange during the race (or some other penalty for the Michelin teams)

That way all the people that bought an expensive ticket would at least still have something to watch...

Watching 6 cars doing testlaps is total BS

IMO, Ecclestone and his f-face friends are the assh*les today!

Did ya notice Speed is still running the Michelin commercials during the race?

Completely agree. This is down to Max and Bernie.

I hope this is one more big step towards the breakaway series actually happening. I'd like nothing better than to see Mosley out of the F1 biz altogether.

Michelin screwed up and deserves to be penalized, but the race should have gone on somehow. A dark day for F1.

From what I understand Ferrari is the only that didn't agree to race with a chicane. Minardi and Jordans were willing. FUK Ferrari.

Serge,

What are your sources?? Because I just got off the phone with one of my college buddies that works for Scuderia, and he said the decision was made entirely by the FIA and had to deal with the FIA sanctioning of the circuit which must be approved many months prior to the event. He also said the teams were not contacted regarding the addition of a chicane. The tire manufacturers were contacted and the chicane was asked for by Michelin due to their lack of ability to produce and bring a tire that would stand up to the rigors of this racing surface which BTW was done by a Canadian company that did Mont Tremblant.

This is a very sad day, and I am still embarassed by the American fans as well as the FIA and Bernie. As for Michelin, they should have been prepared. They weren't!

So who responsible, the chicken or the egg, I say the EGG that Michelin layed was the beginning, but no one should have allowed this to happen. What a shame.

Erik

QUOTE (serge914 @ Jun 19 2005, 12:20 PM)

From what I understand Ferrari is the only that didn't agree to race with a chicane. Minardi and Jordans were willing. FUK Ferrari.

If it was the other way around, the rest of the teams would have done the same thing. I think that the FIA and Ferrari did the right thing.

-Britain

According to the Canadian television, Radio Canada, all the teams except Ferrari agreed to the Michelin proposition to run the race with the chicane, and all the Michelin runnind teams were even willing to forget about the championships points and start the race behind the Bridgestone teams.

Of course Michelin is faulty but they admitted it and were trying to save the day.
They also said that Bridgestone found about the new pavement because of Firestone who was running the Indy 500.

Thanks for the source!

But the track has been paved prior to the FIA sanctioning the race. If you have ever seen this process it is very intensive. It describes all of the changes at the track, barriers, corner worker stations, as well as track resurfacing, even if it is only one corner, it must be inspected by an FIA member. This would have been included in a sanctioning report to ALL teams, constructors, and tire manufacturers. I am glad I did not go this year, I would have been really pissed. as for Scuderia not saying okay to the Chicane, I don't think that is the case. But it will come out in the future. I am sure.

Erik

PS: For sale: Michelin Formula one race tires never raced only dropped once. Sorry, old WWII joke.

To Michelin & F-1....I go to the Champ car Long Beach Grand Prix every year and the ticket prices this year for a Suday only reserved seat was $70 !!!!!
I can't even imagine how much these people paid for their seats at the USGP!

And it was HORRIBLE that the fans actually threw things on the track and put the drivers who where trying to give them some kind of show in danger because of the debris!

Not a good day to be an American racing fan!

The Champ car race is on now and my favorite driver Jimmy Vasser was just highlighted....so at least that's cool.

But I don't understand why F-1 couldn't have taken care of this long before today's race....shame on them and Michelin!!

Lisa

QUOTE (Thorshammer @ Jun 19 2005, 01:44 PM)

PS: For sale: Michelin Formula one race tires never raced only dropped once. Sorry, old WWII joke.

Was it during the waving of the "WHITE FLAG"

Lisa

The teams wouldn't have dared pull this shit at the French GP.
Basicly, it's a "fuck you, America".

Nobody cried when Bridgestone fried tires earlier in the season
It was tough nuggies Bridgestone, build a better tire next time......but they ran till the tires puked.

The FIA should fine the teams that quit a million bucks apeice and the Bridgestone runners should get the money and be able to use new motors in France.

Michelin wanted a chicane.....fuck me stupid....what a bunch of arrogant asshole.

It's got nothing to do with "fuck you America"
But the differences in liability laws between the US and the rest of the world hasn't helped in this case...

Before the race, 9 teams had pledged not to race if they wouldn't allow the chicane. AFAIK, Ferrari was not one of them

During the "race" there was an interview with Paul Stodard (Minardi)
He was completely outraged, swearing and cussin' (hey, you can do that on Dutch TV )
Jordan was one of the teams that pledged not to race, but they (Jordan) decided to go for the points anyway at the very last minute. Because of that, Minardi was forced to go out as well (couldn't afford not to)
Stodard (Minardi) claimed he could have been competitive with Jordan under normal racing conditions, but after today, their season was over. Minardi has no change of closing the 4 point gap which Jordan "won" today over the rest of the season

Above all, Schumacher again proved to be a spineless turd today
And what about that moron driver from Jordan that got 3rd place... he was actually excited. Like he actually achieved something

If there's no competition, it's not racing... it's just BS

QUOTE

I hope this is one more big step towards the breakaway series actually happening

Slim chance... Fucclestone holds all the cards and is in a position he can pretty much blackmail EVERY other racing organisation (which he has done in the past and surely won't hessitate to do again in the future)

Bottom line, Michelin fucked up but tried everything in their power to save the day...
FIA should have provided a sollution to the problem, but chose not too

F1 has been BS for years. I stopped caring long ago.

QUOTE

And what about that moron driver from Jordan that got 3rd place... he was actually excited. Like he actually achieved something if

I think I disagree with that sentiment, he placed third.. in the US GP behind probably the greatest F1 driver of all time, and his very talented team-mate. Granted it was an unusual race, yet it was still a race!


In Montreal there were no tire issues, yet in Indy the Michelin tires couldnt last more than a few laps? ( for only one team!!!)

BTW the banking at Indy is kind of flat actually.

Your typical interstate is designed with a 2 degree crown to allow water drainage (this is on straight sections) Some highway turns exceed 6 deg depending on the radius design speed etc..

Im not sure what the delio was with the tires since only two of the 14 cars running on Michelins had problems..

I do know some kid from Portugal came in third in the US Grand Prix I say good on him

Michelin way F'd up, but can't believe that FIA couldn't come up with a solution. Use new flown in tires (although there seems to be some debate as to if these tires existed and if they would be any better) but all M teams start at the rear. Or no M teams score points.

All in all a travesty!

No french tires on my car....

QUOTE

Im not sure what the delio was with the tires since only two of the 14 cars running on Michelins had problems..

apparently the other Michelin shod cars, while not experiencing failures, saw evidence of trouble during practice and qualifying

QUOTE

Im not sure what the delio was with the tires since only two of the 14 cars running on Michelins had problems..

Michelin issued a written press statement where they claimed that there was a safety issue with their tires and they advised the teams not to run. If they chose to run anyway, it was at their own risk.

QUOTE (goose2 @ Jun 19 2005, 02:34 PM)

apparently the other Michelin shod cars, while not experiencing failures, saw evidence of trouble during practice and qualifying

Yes, that figures....since only 2 Michelin shod cars (both backmarkers) did tire tests at Indy.

Ferrari had the same problem earlier in the year. The "spineless turd" still ran the race tho he had no chance, but quit after 2 tires falied....the guttless sumbitch.

Racers race.

Put In a Chicane......Come on....Give me a break.........Whats Indy USGP w/out turn 13...Im glad nobody got hurt and Ralphies team made him sit..Alot of it had to do with him I bet....Crying his little eyes out pouting...About how dangerous the turn is..Lets see two different cars two different years...Try a new line Ralfie...FIA is 100% ok......Bernie wants to go to Las Vegas anyways...Whats unsafe try watching a race from the 60's this is a world sport that makes there own rules..Not just a SE US series....Truli and Kimi had to make the same decision so the rest folled..Cant blame Ferrari for taking advantage of it when the need it most......But hey the 24 Lemans makes up for an iffy Race weekend........

I haven't had one of their tires since maybe xvx? in like 87?

Well guys I was at the GP all weekend and let me tell you the race was a great dissapointment. Most of the crowd left in disgust before the race was 30 laps in. Even lots of ferrari fans. I talked to tons of people. It was ridiculous for anyone to even try to call that a race.

I think the FIA screwed the pooch here. They should have came to some compromise with the teams, whatever it took. Reguardless of rules or whatever, F1 would not exists without the fans. However I don't think the drivers should uneccisarily be required to endanger thier life with a faulty part, when a better one exists and is available. Safety should be number one. Period. Now this will negativly impact all the mometum they had going in america.

What we heard at the track was that the root cause of the original problem was the re-surfacing of the track. It was a drastically different surface than before apparently. We also heard that Bridgestone had already fixed the problem that michelin had becuase they already ran into the same issue with their firestone tires during the Indy 500.

In my opinion Ferrari should have stopped running with the rest of the teams as a professional courtesy. It was a great collection of points they recieved, but it was not earned through competition.

I don't quite understand your post. And please take this as me not busting your ass, but. At first you talk of fan disappointment, and in the last couple sentences you say that Ferrari should have pulled off out of professional courtesy. As far as I am concerned, at least the fans got to see someone go around the track. If I was a paying fan I would have been pissed beyond belief had no one raced at all. as for the others. Michelin was clearly not prepared, as for boycott, I think it is weak as hell that it came down to this. I think two sports will have a hard time returning to their former glory after two hold out type situations (even though they are really different) NHL and F1. Many people will vote with their wallet. As for me, no Michelins, from here on out. I had even thought about putting them on my motor home. Now, I will find something else. Just like the AFAM Sprockets I sent back 6 months ago. Made in you know where. No Thanks, I'll spend my cash elsewhere. As for the NHL, I'll go to one game a year (All I can afford in my city) and maybe instead of getting my son involved in Hockey, it will be Chess, we know the role models will be plentiful?! No disrespect meant to the chess community.

Erik Madsen

QUOTE (Jeroen @ Jun 19 2005, 10:43 AM)

Yes, Michelin f-ed up BIG TIME... but IMO it's the FIA that's f-ing up this event If you have a problem, you fix it... You don't come with all your bureaucratic BS, like the FIA has done today... They could have easily allowed Michelin to use the tires that they flew in In exchange they could have allowed the Bridgestone teams a tirechange during the race (or some other penalty for the Michelin teams) That way all the people that bought an expensive ticket would at least still have something to watch... Watching 6 cars doing testlaps is total BS IMO, Ecclestone and his f-face friends are the assh*les today!

Fuck Ecclestone, with his stupid assed comment about women "I think of them in white like a normal domestic appliance"....Fuck him, what an asshole! Even the NASCAR spokesman said he couldn't believe the comment...and, as much as I dislike the NASCAR bunch....they would NEVER have let the fans down like FIA did at Indy...never.

QUOTE (cdmcse @ Jun 19 2005, 10:28 PM)

I think the FIA screwed the pooch here. They should have came to some compromise with the teams, whatever it took. Reguardless of rules or whatever, F1 would not exists without the fans. However I don't think the drivers should uneccisarily be required to endanger thier life with a faulty part, when a better one exists and is available. Safety should be number one. Period.

I was out there all weekend too. It seems to me that FIA (Mosley?) could have tried to work something out so that there would still have been a race. I didn't pay $105 for my seat to watch a Bridgestone tire test. Many of the people who were around me at the start of the "race" had left by lap 15. Everyone in attendance was furious. I can only imagine how pissed off all the sponsors for McLaren, Toyota, et al, not to mention the race sponsors (Allianz, Orange, RBS, et al) must feel. You could probably hear the collective channel change all over the world once everyone realized that the race was f'ed. The only reason any of those companies support events like this is because they view it as a great advertising opportunity.

I was impressed by the Ferrari drivers' candor on the podium, but Schumi's remarks during the press conference made me feel worse about the day. I've heard all the rumors about Ferrari rejecting the bid for a chicane, and supposed collaboration w/FIA against the Michelin teams. I don't know what to believe on that. I think that if Ferrari had stepped up and forced the safety issue, then maybe FIA would have worked harder to develop a solution that worked for everyone. I won't fault Jordan or Minardi for fielding their cars though -- both those teams struggle mightily to participate that they need all the sponsorship exposure they can muster. Scoring points is a means to that end....

There was concern that the tires were unsafe, Michelin took the RESPONSIBLE action to notify everyone of the safety concern. I don't know what the problem is/was, or why it occurred, but it did and they recognized it and told everyone that the tires may not be safe. However mad I am about today's outcome, I would have been infinitely more upset had they not said anything and a driver, corner worker, or spectator was injured from an accident. The liability is enormous! I will gladly sacrifice my $105 ticket to make sure that myself, the drivers, the corner workers, and other spectators don't have to be put at an unnecessary risk just to watch cars go fast. At it was today, I was absolutely horrified to see people throwing trash onto the circuit. My heart skipped a beat everytime I saw a corner worker dash onto the tarmac to pick up a bottle or can. That was totally inexcusable, and I totally support the remorseless beating of anyone who threw stuff onto the track.

All in all, a sh*tty day. Shame on Michelin for not doing their homework. Shame on the FIA for not trying to develop an acceptable compromise, and then forcing some teams to make a tough call that could put the safety of everyone at IMS today at risk, with the alternative that they instead retire. Shame on a small group of attendees who took an unhappy event and turned it ugly. That is really not the impression that We want to portray on world television of our city (and by extension, our country and citizenry). There was never any need to throw debris onto the track at any time.

IMHO, it's all about politics. Point is nobody had the balls to make a decision to get things going and as Joeren mentionned everyone is affraid of liability in the US...

With the Ferrari issue, they did not refuse having a chicane, it was reported that they said that they would oblige to the decision of the FIA.

As for Michelin, aren't they allowed to screw up? Well by the racing rules no.

I don't get the fact of stopping buying their tires, they're among the best on the market, if it wouldn't be for them maybe we would still be running with chambers or whatever they are called. Might as well not buy a German car and I don't know why Japanese people buy Levi's...

Most of you guys are older than me and should remember the great days of F1 with the real Villeneuve, Lauda, Stewart, etc. You should also remember that death was part of racing also, on the track and in the stands. The question is would YOU go racing knowing that there are good chances of having a tire explode at over 200MPH!!!

Yes it was lame for the crowd and they had every reason to be pissed but like the saying says: shit happens and then you die (but no one had to at Indy today...)

Michellin bears full responsibility for what happened today.
The tire problems were on Friday. They notified the teams at 6:30 this morning that the tires might be unsafe, then they proposed changes to the FIA so that their teams could compete...give me a break! It's the team's (and their vendors) responsibility to provide safe, effective gear. If the tires aren't safe it's not the FIA's responsibility to change the race course so that the inferior product will last. My take on what Michellin has done is this: "Hey let's make the lightest tire we can make so our teams will go faster" no problem there....they just went too far and their tires were failing where the sidewall met the belts for the treaded area. Bridgestone did their homework...why should they or their teams be penalized? Why should the FIA have to change the race and/or race course?

For once, I agree with the FIA, it did the right thing.
I would have liked to watch a real race, but I would have been pissed if they made the proposed changes just to suit poor tire construction of one supplier.

QUOTE (mudfoot76 @ Jun 20 2005, 12:09 AM)

I totally support the remorseless beating of anyone who threw stuff onto the track.

From what was heard on the news a cameraman from F1World or something similar got his tole of ass-whooping from some angry fans.

From the Indianapolis Star:
----------------------------------
Memos flew before decision not to race

By Steve Ballard
steve.ballard@indystar.com


The great tire controversy that made a travesty of the U.S. Grand Prix produced a heated exchange of memos between the Federation Internationale de L’Automobile (FIA), Formula One’s ruling body, and tire company Michelin.

In what it termed to be “the interests of complete transparency,” the FIA released the memos to the media. Here are excerpts, beginning with Michelin’s original appeal, sent after qualifying Saturday to FIA race director Charlie Whiting:

“Having analyzed and fully evaluated the tire failures that have occurred over the (U.S.) Grand Prix practice sessions, we have been unable to identify a root cause.

“The current rules and time scale do not permit the use of an alternative tire solution and the race must be performed with the qualifying tires.

“Michelin has in the sole interest of safety informed its partner teams that we do not have total assurance that all tires that qualified the cars can be used unless the vehicle speed in turn 13 can be reduced.

“Michelin very much regrets this situation, but has taken this decision after careful consideration and in the best interests of safety.

“We trust the FIA can understand our position and we remain at your disposal if you want any further information.”

The memo was signed by Pierre Dupasquier, Michelin motor sport director, and Nick Shorrock, director of Michelin F-1 activities. It was copied to F-1 chief Bernie Ecclestone and the principals of each of the seven teams that use Michelin.

Whiting’s response, in part:

“We are very surprised this difficulty has arisen. As you know, each team is allowed to bring two different types of tire to an event so as to ensure a backup (usually of lower performance) is available should problems occur. It is hard to understand why you have not supplied your teams with such a tire given your years of experience at Indianapolis.

“No doubt you will inform your teams what is the maximum safe speed for their cars in turn 13. We will remind them of the need to follow your advice for safety reasons. We will also ask them to ensure their cars do not obstruct other competitors.

“Some of the teams have raised with us the possibility of running a tire which was not used in qualifying. We have told them this would be a breach of the rules to be considered by the stewards. We believe the penalty would not be exclusion but would have to be heavy enough to ensure that no team was tempted to use qualifying tires in the future.

“Another possibility would be for the relevant teams repeatedly to change the affected tire during the race. If the stewards were satisfied each change was made because the tire would otherwise fail and the relevant team was not gaining an advantage, there would be no penalty.

“Finally, it has been suggested (by you) that a chicane should be laid out in turn 13. I am sure you will appreciate this is out of the question. To change the course in order to help some teams with a performance problem caused by their failure to bring suitable equipment to the race would be a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to those teams which have come to Indianapolis with the correct tires.”

Sunday morning, Michelin replied with a memo restating its position that the tires on which its teams qualified could not guarantee the safety of the drivers.

“As a result, we reached the conclusion we will not compete with these tires in the current configuration of the circuit. We therefore reiterate our request to have a significant reduction of speed in turns 12-13.

“We request that the FIA consider favorably this request and remain at your disposal for further information.”

The FIA’s response was short and to the point:

“As explained in our earlier letter, your teams have a choice of running more slowly in turns 12-13, running a tire not used in qualifying (which would attract a penalty) or repeatedly changing a tire (subject to valid safety reasons).

“It is for them to decide. We have nothing to add.”

Both sides stood firm. So the 14 Michelin-shod cars, after taking their places on the starting grid, returned to their garages at the end of the formation lap and the race proceeded with just six cars.

QUOTE (jimtab @ Jun 19 2005, 08:57 PM)

Fuck Ecclestone, with his stupid assed comment about women "I think of them in white like a normal domestic appliance"....Fuck him, what an asshole!

Get the hell out....he really said that!!!!!
What a total asswipe!
I'd like to put his "domestic appliance" in a fucking vice grip

Lisa

He really did....what an assbag.

Calm down Lisa, he was refering to the gimp he dresses as a woman twice a month.



M

Lisa

While Michelin f-ed up, it was clearly the FIA and Ferrari that ruined the actual race. As reported by Autosport, a press release from Paul Stoddart, team principal at Minardi, summed up what actually happened before the race itself.

9 of the 10 teams agreed to run a race with a chicane in Turn 13. Ferrari objected. The Michelin teams offered to start behind all of the Bridgestone teams, and even to run without scoring any points at all, no matter how they finished. Ferrari still objected, and the FIA sided with Ferrari. So, the Michelin teams had no option but to not start. They ran the warm-up laps, which fulfilled their contractual obligations to the FIA, then pulled off. Nothing else they could do, really.

Jordan decided moments before the race to about face and race anyway. Minardi, who've stated as their goal this season to "not finish last", basically view Jordan as their only realistic competition, so they felt forced to run as well.

The obstinate position of the FIA and Ferrari prevented any changes that would have allowed an actual race to be run in reasonable safety. In my view, the Michelin teams bent over backwards to accomodate them, and were told to get stuffed.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Jun 20 2005, 06:45 AM)

While Michelin f-ed up, it was clearly the FIA and Ferrari that ruined the actual race. As reported by Autosport, a press release from Paul Stoddart, team principal at Minardi, summed up what actually happened before the race itself. 9 of the 10 teams agreed to run a race with a chicane in Turn 13. Ferrari objected. The Michelin teams offered to start behind all of the Bridgestone teams, and even to run without scoring any points at all, no matter how they finished. Ferrari still objected, and the FIA sided with Ferrari. So, the Michelin teams had no option but to not start. They ran the warm-up laps, which fulfilled their contractual obligations to the FIA, then pulled off. Nothing else they could do, really. Jordan decided moments before the race to about face and race anyway. Minardi, who've stated as their goal this season to "not finish last", basically view Jordan as their only realistic competition, so they felt forced to run as well. The obstinate position of the FIA and Ferrari prevented any changes that would have allowed an actual race to be run in reasonable safety. In my view, the Michelin teams bent over backwards to accomodate them, and were told to get stuffed.

Yep, that's exactly what he said live on TV here... except he used a lot of F-words

Stodard is one of the very few sportsmen left in F1 and was the only one to have the balls to speak up against the FIA

Michelin (or Michelin teams) ain't bitchin' about not earning points
Michelin f-ed up and as a result, their teams are screwed for points. No one has an issue with that. Sure it sucks, but those are the rules of the game.

FIA should (and could) have easily provided a way for the spectators and fans to see a race and still penalize the Michelin teams...

If there's a problem, you do everything in your power to fix it.
Michelin did, the teams did, but instead, FIA choose to hide behind their BS bureaucratic rules...

You should get a grab of this book:
"Bernie's Game: Inside the Formula One World of Bernie Ecclestone"
by Terry Lovell
It's a real eye-opener

Penalize them...Most of them wouldnt be able to finish anyways or even push there cars to the limit without killing the Michelins......Team Owners are to blame.....Michelin said they were unsafe...So team owners decided to get in a group and Pout....Not the FIA Not Ferrari and for once not Tony George..At least Coltard wanted to race he didnt give a crap...Newer racers and Crew peeps are getting alittle soft.................

QUOTE (F1rocco @ Jun 20 2005, 01:26 PM)

At least Coltard wanted to race he didnt give a crap...Newer racers and Crew peeps are getting alittle soft.................

Yeah, sure... Untill they had blown one of their tires, ended up in the wall and sued the team because of a cracked toe nail
And the US Gubment going after the team with manslaughter charges
And...

Yeah sure, the teams are to blame for not running

Well... they should have run... slower..



I just see it like you show up with the wrong gear... you pay..


M

Chicane my A$$! Ferrari was correct in not waviering, this all Michelin fault. This is what happens when you delute the suppliers down to two.
Almost all season long, Michelin has been the correct choice, but they failed when it came to the banking. No body gave any quarter to Ferrari for the early retirement in AUS, and dont forget the Barge Boards...

As for the 7 time WORLD CHAMP being spineless? Give me a break! He has bosses that pay him what 100 mil a year? You don't think they prep him? You dont think he knows what side the toast is buttered on?
Get real!

You just have to blame Michellin. They didn't do there homework and stuck their people with a tire that couldn't hold up. I'm sure Bridgestone didn't share their insight into tire wear but, there had to be rumors and Michellin should have been there testing. There is no excuse for being unprepared.

As for me, I won't buy Michellin again. If they are that ill prepared for racing on the world's biggest stage, F1, what details have they not tested on their passenger tires.

Dave

It's a different story when it's one team v. 2/3rds of the grid. Effectively, no race happened this weekend, because the FIA was too bloody-minded to allow one to happen. Once it became clear that Michelin messed up and there was no way to fix it, the ONLY thought should have been to have a race, anyway, in a manner that was safe. Both the FIA and Ferrari are insisting the Bridgestone runners shouldn't have been "penalized" by adding a chicane. That's right from a philosophical standpoint, but the end result was no race at all. Had they bent just a little and allowed a chicane, there at least would have been a race. As far as I'm concerned the FIA acted like a bunch of 8 year olds.

The whole idea that "racer's race" is what killed 1-2 drivers per season up until the early 80s. Safety should have been the No. 1 goal, as it clearly was with the Michelin teams. Having a race for the fans that paid so much to see one should have been the No. 2 goal. The FIA chose to ignore both goals, by blindly sticking to their rules in the face of very extraordinary circumstances.

The FIA are now taking the stance that blame needs to be laid primarily at the feet of the Michelin teams. It is expected they'll all be penalized, and perhaps quite severely. I expect this won't endear the FIA to these teams, which represent all of the major manufacturers besides Ferrari, who are already on the outs with these teams, anyway.

Bernie Eccelstone, btw, can't really be blamed, in my view. All he's interested in is the money. I'm sure he wanted a race to happen, and he wouldn't have minded the chicane solution at all. This result will only be bad for Bernie, as it will result in yet more major lawsuits and more bleeding of cash. This can't be what Bernie wanted, and I'm sure he would have chosen almost any option OTHER than this one. Bernie hasn't really been in control of the FIA now for several years. He worked for some time to oust Jean-Marie Balestre and install his old friend Mosley in the presidentcy, but now he's apparently lost control of Mosley. Since Bernie no longer owns a majority stake in FOM, nor does he still control the TV rights (he lost these to the bankers last year), he really doesn't have anything like the influence he had as recently as five years ago. Mosley and Whiting are primarily to blame here. Whiting can't see past the end of his nose wrt to the rules, and Mosley, I suspect, is just stirring up trouble because it delights him to stir it up. He's a bored bureaucrat who's now having a ball issuing proclamations. He'll sit in judgement of the teams, then watch as they all walk and the GPWC becomes a reality. Bernie will no doubt cut a deal with those outfits and continue to enjoy a share in the profits, or he'll finally retire (he's in his 70s) and spend is billions. Mosley, et al, will be left with a hollow organization, which is even more than they deserve.

QUOTE (DNHunt @ Jun 20 2005, 08:36 AM)

As for me, I won't buy Michellin again. If they are that ill prepared for racing on the world's biggest stage, F1, what details have they not tested on their passenger tires.

Oh, c'mon Dave. I'm quite sure there's no overlap between the group that designs the racing tires, and the group that designs the passenger tires. Passenger tires take months or years to design. The racing car guys have days or weeks to do the same thing, and have to keep doing and redoing it. Their mistake was inexcusable, but indicting the passenger car side for what the racing car side did seems unwarranted. As has been pointed out, Bridgestone earlier this season managed to produce tires that wore out so fast they punctured long before the end of the race. This is the first year of a highly controversial set of tire rules, and both companies are scrambling to adapt, and both have made mistakes. Michelin's mistake was a much bigger blunder, admittedly, but they've also been a lot more successful otherwise this season.

Trying to produce a tire that's both fast and reliable is clearly not all that straightforward. Both are under serious pressure to produce tires that are right at the limit, which is generally what racing technology has always been about. Anything that's too reliable is also probably too heavy or too hard. They can't afford to be too conservative, or they'll lose.

More from Autosport: according to a phone interview with Frank Williams, Tony George and Bernie came to an agreement on Saturday to run a chicane, and Bernie called Charlie Whiting to make it happen. Mosley then stepped in and vetoed the idea, and offered no other compromise that could have allowed a race to happen. Mosley was clearly hoping the Michelin teams would back down and race despite the danger to their drivers. To their credit, they chose not to do this. Mosley obviously didn't believe Michelin, or simply didn't care if a series of tire-related crashes happened in the race.

Bottom line, is F-1 a sport or a show/business?

Obviously the FIA believe they are running a sport event and just wanted the best team to win the race.

I believe, like most of the spectators that F-1 is a show and that the show must go on, regardless of the compromise that you need to do.

James

I'll stand by what I said. Granted racing and passenger operations are likely separated by a wide margin. Still Michellin would like us to think that what they learn from racing leads to a better passenger tire. So is the reverse true? Can a blunder in the racing program tell us anything about the passenger side? I think so. Live by the sword die by the sword.

Dave

QUOTE (DNHunt @ Jun 20 2005, 10:26 AM)

James I'll stand by what I said. Granted racing and passenger operations are likely separated by a wide margin. Still Michellin would like us to think that what they learn from racing leads to a better passenger tire. So is the reverse true? Can a blunder in the racing program tell us anything about the passenger side? I think so. Live by the sword die by the sword. Dave

Maybe, maybe not. I'm sure in the end we'll agree to disagree on this, but...

Is Bridgestone affected by the disaster that was the Explorer rollovers, which implicated Firestone tires, simply because they belong to the same corporate entity? Bridgestone tires failed Ferrari earlier this season, so while their mistake wasn't nearly so embarrassing, it was still a serious mistake. Does this really effect their road tires?

Dunlop had a number of tire-shredding failures in the early 1970s when slicks were first being introduced into racing. Since you say "never again, Michelin", it sounds like there's no time limit, and someone who'd witnessed the 1970s failures could employ the same logic to not buy Dunlops today, racing or street.

BF Goodrich is now just a brand owned by the Michelin group. So, by implication, BF Goodrich tires should also be covered by your ban.

The "never" option just seems a bit extreme. I'm sure every tire company that's ever made racing tires has made a serious blunder at some point. That's part of the point of "proving" new technology with racing. Sometimes, it's not going to work. Designing and making racing tires naturally MUST use unproven technology if the tires are to be competitive, because by the time it's proven, everyone has it, and there's no edge. Street tires, on the other hand, must ONLY use proven technology, since safety is far more important than ultimate performance on the street. I've seen no evidence that Michelin (or Bridgestone) has pushed the technology envelope on their street tires anywhere near as hard as they must in F1. Clearly, the F1 engineers crossed the line and pushed too hard, and one could imply a corporate mentality from that. Or one could simply imply that competition between Michelin and Bridgestone has been particularly fierce in a very challenging environment, and they're running on such a ragged edge by necessity that they're both tripping over it. Bridgestone got luckier earlier this year with their failure (and they only supply one competitive team, anyway). Had they supplied several more teams, we would have seen a much bigger problem there.

QUOTE (serge914 @ Jun 20 2005, 12:41 PM)

Bottom line, is F-1 a sport or a show/business?

It is a sport that evolved into a show. None of those companies that pay to have their logos plastered all over the cars and circuit would have handed over one penny if they didn't view it as a primo advertising opportunity. What has been overlooked is that people like you and me are the ones who are the target for all this marketing activity, and if we aren't paying attention, then there is no impetus for them to spend the $$ on the advertising, which goes to pay for cars, drivers, tires, tracks, etc....

It may be a sport, but it exists in the current form to entertain us, the spectators. We weren't entertained. Many people who were there yesterday will not return. If enough people choose that option, then the race (and possibly the series) dies. Some say that it already has died and yesterday was the last nail in the casket.

QUOTE (serge914 @ Jun 20 2005, 09:41 AM)

Bottom line, is F-1 a sport or a show/business? Obviously the FIA believe they are running a sport event and just wanted the best team to win the race. I believe, like most of the spectators that F-1 is a show and that the show must go on, regardless of the compromise that you need to do.

Sport or show business? As tightly controlled as NASCAR, and nearly as fake as WWF, it appears to exist for the enrichment of Bernie Ecclestone, who must know something that would REALLY embarass some ofthe people of the FIA. It's a show, IMO, that survives on it's own hype, again, like NASCAR. Le Mans, though long and sometimes tedious, provides lots of entertainment and real racing by real cars that people can relate to. F1 and NASCAR can't claim that. ................ BTW, go read the article on autoweek.com If the interested parties gave a sh*t about the fans, they could have made it right., giving thousands of spectators/fans something for their hard earned money. The Cap'n, glad he had something else to do on Fathers Day ................