Hello,

I have the option of buying a 2.4L running engine from a 911T (F-model). The engine, with the carbs, is offered for $3900. First off, assuming I find nothing more about the engine, is this a reasonable price? (I asked already for compression, leak-down numbers, etc, I am waiting to hear the answers.)

Second, how hard is it to get this engine installed in my 1.7L 914 (is it even possible?) and is this an enormous project that will take my car out of commission for several years, or is this more like a month-long project? In a different 914 I did do a full engine rebuild (1.8L), how does converting to a -6 compare in terms of complexity of the project?

Thanks,
Andrei.

Go to the Classic section and read up one it. Pelican Parts has a how to also. George at AA has a booklet he published.

Engine tin
Engine wire harness
Engine bulkhead mount
Clutch
flywheel
Oil tank
Oil lines
Headers or heat exchangers
Muffler
Modify oil cooler
Modify tach
Modify shift rod
Oil pressure temp gauge

Figure $10-15k to do it right.

Read a bunch of conversion threads on this site. It’s all been done many times before. It’s always cheaper and faster to buy one already done but the project is part of the fun.

Ben / MB911 owns 914-6Werkshop.com in Burlington WI. He can help you with parts or do the conversion for you.

Wow what an open question. To some it will be the hardest thing they have ever done. To others it will be a walk in the park on a perfect day.

Some can do the swap in a weekend other will find it decades in doing.

But the car was built around excepting both the type-4 and the 911 based -6. Both fit very well documented swap and books have been written about it.

Enjoy the research, engine price, unless it is pure junk, or scam, is a great deal.

especially since OP is in WI.

Also aregree on Mark's assessment of cost. /6 conversions aren't cheap but you won't regret the sound, low CG, and relative ease of a proper air cooled six swap.

Hi Andrei, all the comments are spot on with additional cost for five bolt 911 sespension, rust repair. My project is nearing the end if you would like to see. I'm just north of Madison (Merrimac) about 40 miles. On vacation in Florida for two more weeks then home. Best, Mark

A small six transforms the 914 experience—the car immediately feels different...hard to describe in some ways but mine went from feeling like an affordable sports car of the 1970s in the vein of a 2000s MR-2 Spyder to something altogether more expensive and even a hair exotic. Which is funny, because nearly everything else remains the same and I don't view 911 street engines as "exotic." But there is something about Porsche's air-cooled flat six in the lightest road car chassis ever designed to house it. I do miss a bit of the four-cylinder setup's lightness and "flickability," but I suspect I can improve the handling.

My 2.2 conversion took years in terms of parts gathering, timing, etc, but went pretty quickly once it was started mainly because the person I worked with had converted a dozen or so 914-4s. It is an "easy" job for someone who knows what they're doing, since the 914 was designed by Porsche to accept a 911 engine, with maybe the "trickiest" part being the quality for the wiring conversion and cable linkages. My car has had precisely zero problems in the 8-9 years since the conversion. 2.4 is a great choice, whether mild and torquey as a T or wilder as a high-compression S. Ditto for 2.2, and while I know a lot of people love big sixes, I even like the 2.0 in the 914...mainly for the noises. Agree on the assessments on cost—$10-15k to do it right in addition to the engine, five-lug conversion (suspension/brakes/wheels). Some have done it on a real shoestring with great results (search for Trekkor...I seem to remember his DIY and very crafty conversion was $5k~ though that was a long time ago), while I suspect for others it can be a $50,000+ proposition if they're only writing checks for the conversion, a flat six build, and five-lug conversion. My advice, in either scenario: Work with people who have done multiple conversions if you can...and you are in the right place for that.

Sounds like a cheap engine priced as a core motor or a total steal ?,unless a European spec engine it has most likely been converted to carbs,all US motors were mechanical fuel injection and the last motors were CIS for one MY only.
This is a fairly involved conversion but there is a great network of parts to complete this as most original parts are NLA.
The key point is the cost which isn't cheap by any means,go ahead and read the Pelican tech article but don't think the parts prices have been updated so everything will sound reasonably cheap which they are not these days.
I purchased a mostly complete conversion and bought up the other parts needed over about one year,the motor was not with the car because I already had a 71 911 engine.
There is a huge amount of info on this forum and many members have done conversions....read on,

I am in Madison and have a 3.2. I bought the motor first and then a car to go with, but the order doesn’t matter. I suggest that you read and read and read. Also, buy a suspension to go with your motor. You need to be able to slow down, if only to add gasoline. The 911 brakes go with a 5 lug conversion. Again, this and other websites are your friends. Let me know if you need some parts. My favorite drive is certainly the 914 with a six. Makes me wonder why they kept making new model cars. Oh of course. So my car can talk to me.

excellent reply...better than mine ,what you have said sums up the best points of this conversion the 911 "6" is a gem of a motor big or small bore form and is well suited to the 914.
The real "6"got caught up in marketing politics ,shame really considering the racing history of the factory GT cars.

It's not hard to put a /6 into a 914, it's the cost. If you have the bankroll you can have it installed by the spring.
Hunting for bargains, added at least 2-3 years to my conversion.

^ "not hard"
33 years ago, I put a 911 2.4L-T into my 914. It was my 1st and only /6 conversion. I did all of the work. It took me about 3 months worth of weekends, which included re-painting the engine bay. It was not too hard or complicated, just time consuming.

"it's the cost"
In 1987 I spent $6,687.50 to buy the engine and get it running in the 914 (per my spread sheet). That is $15,230 in 2019 dollars.
$2,765 was for the engine (1987 dollars).
The $6687.50 does not include the 911 suspension & brake upgrades I did a couple of years later.

Incidentally, that 2.4L /6 is still in my 914 today
Great 914 touring motor.

I picked up a 911 2.4 for cheap in 2005ish. Looked at pricing installing it then and said forget it for 130hp. Sold it to Dan Root who installed in one of his 914/6 conversion projects. Now if the engine is a nice 3.2 complete with everything I would do it.

I remember that, the 914 I put that engine in was nice. Signal Orange I believe. It had the stock steel wheels on it with hub caps. What a sleeper that was!

15 years ago you could do a six conversion for $5-7k depending on deals you could get. These days....seems about triple that.

^ My experience, also.

I collected the stuff I had to supply (carbs, a tach, engine tins, engine mount, a muffler, an airbox, etc) over a couple of years before John Holleran started building the engine. He had a NOS oil tank, NOS lines, and everything else to build the engine up. Back then, he was between shops...so the work happened in three different places. If the engine had been ready to go, as is the case with the OP, it probably could have been done in a couple of weeks...and maybe less. I am sure there is a record out there...

^ Yep, understandable. I might have done the same thing, and actually would have back in 2010.

But the more I drive today's blindingly fast cars, the more I realize paper horses are a red herring. It's the experience, and the way an engine makes its power and a car can use that power, that make a car fun in the real world (see: 914-4 as an example even with 80hp...and 130hp is a 62% increase). A 2.4 911T is a really nice car to drive...so how much more so in a lighter 914 chassis?

When I drive my 2.2, which is probably making 190~ hp, its output is only part of the equation. A lot of the fun in a six conversion is the noise, which is pure Le Mans 1970—or at least closely linked to it. Other nice thing about a six conversion is what it enables: Once you have a six in, the car is set up for all manner of sixes. Some will require an oil cooler, but that's about it...

I heard that !!

Many years ago, when my son was about 4 years old, we watched the movie LeMans on our home theatre system. The next day we went somewhere in my 2.4L 914-6 conversion car. The 1st time I 'got on it' a little bit, my son exclaimed excitedly "Ooh, Race Car"!

Decades later, I still smile thinking about that day.

I went the stealth stock 4 route using Raby parts to bump up the HP to 120HP with Djet FI and heat. With close ratio transmission its plenty fast and great to drive. The only thing missing is the 6 sound which is okay as the wife likes the car quiet.

Yup, none of us here should fool ourselves thinking our 120, 180 or even 340hp 914's will be the quickest cars on the road these days. Think the new Tesla Roadster 0-6 in 1.9 seconds.

We drive 914's because we like them and they are a part of history. Heck, It's been almost 10 years since I owned one and I still came back. Coulda bought a used first Gen Tesla Roadster for the same money. I'd rather have a 914.

Pete’s car is a beautiful narrow body. Mine is a wide body with a 3.2 and fully developed suspension. I agree with pretty much everything Pete has said and would add, Patrick Motorsport’s in Arizona where you can easily spend $100K on a conversion.
Ben and McMark at Original Customs are both good for conversions. McMark did most of mine, though I did contribute ideas and labor.
I’d guess $15K when all done for mine not including flares and suspension?

^ Too funny—because I was just talking to a friend last night to say that, even with the factory airbox, a six-cylinder 914 is a less pleasant car on long drives vs a fuel-injected four. The mechanical music from that flat six is a bit, uh..., "present" in fifth gear at 70~ mph, where the Type IV's din of meh fades away on the freeway—making the 914-4 a great touring car. It's hard to say the same for a six, though ear plugs help.

Pick your poison. For how I use my 914, I'll take the Le Mans soundtrack, every time. And a pair of ear plugs for those rare long hauls.

I have both.... a 2056 /4 with SSIs (not hooked up) and a 2.4 /6 with headers. Both E tickets. I have a radio in both but they’re both worthless. I enjoy both equally. The /6 is special and I get a ton of thumbs up and hood gawkers.

I’ll be sad to see the ABM go which will be posted shortly. Like my silver 95 993, I will regret selling this one.... but it’s time.

I would avoid the /6 conversion
Because you should have gotten one that was already done. Or it gets really expensive and time consuming..


Yes modern cars are stupidly too fast ...

But with the big /4 in stock or featherweight configuration . the 914 is pretty quick and way more maneuverable then 9o% of cars on the road today.


But as manfred v.richtoffen said .... Its not the quailty of the box , but the quality of the man inside the box.

So the driver is the main " component"

As most tesla drivers transition from a prius.
They are not up to the task.
Like going from karting straight to f1

Not a smart idea to assume all these lets go "green drivers" can handle the fastest accelerating car ever made....

If that engine is good to go then it’s a great deal but getting an engine at a great price doesn’t make it any easier.

It’s a massive undertaking to do a 6 conversion that requires a significant commitment financially and/or skills wise to see through to a driving conversion.

Definitely not a ‘month long project’. You can count on delays and setbacks.

You need to ask yourself several questions: Is it something you’ve really, really wanted to do for a long time? Can you do it on your own? Sure you can pay someone but is it worth it?

Having said that, once done there’s nothing else out there that compares to a 6 powered 914. The chassis dynamics and the sound are unique, way better than any other air cooled transport I can think of.

If you are capable of doing yourself that would be the best case.. I think if you go no heat option then yes under 10k plus the engine.. I did one for a member here last summer and I did it waaaaaay to cheap.. Lessons learned and you will likely enjoy the process anyway..

Hopefully that engine is good, but I’ve not found many $3,900 911 engines that didn’t turn into $15-18,000 engines quickly.

If it checks out grab it and run!

Yup, I got me one of those.

I knew that would likely be the case going into it so I'm completely fine. It won't run to the high end of Tdskip's price range since I do my own builds and the labor is "free" but I'm about $7K deep on case maching (welding + line bore + shuffle pins), rod rebuilds, and head worrk, etc.

The nice thing is that when it is done I should have a 2.4L that will last the rest of my lifetime and I'll know it's history.

About same here on my 2.4.. The only regret I have is not going with aluminum cylinders and to be honest not sure why thats a regret.. Supertec had the cylinders nikisiled so almost like biral

Totally agree with you on Tesla drivers! A friend bought one and the four of us went to dinner. Oh my god his driving was terrible as it full throttle or on the brakes. After 10 minutes I was ready to puke!

@Bleyseng

Before you're too hard on your Friend, Tesla's are notoriously hard to drive smoothly.

Tesla (and many EV's in general) have a setting to determine how hard the vehicle regenerates electricity by using the EV motor to establish reverse "engine" braking torque from the DC motors. If that setting is to maximum regen, any small lift of the throttle establishes a significant torque reversal. Tesla has basically creating a "one pedal" car. They are intentionally trying to encourage the driver not to touch the brakes but to use Regen to decel the vehicle and therefore pump energy back to the battery & extending range in the process.

Even when settting to minimum regen, the jerk upon reducing throttle is still very noticeable to me as the driver. Even more noticeable to the passenger that has no control and doesn't know when to anticipate the torque reversal.

Now combine that with the fact that a DC motor is much quicker to establish drive (or regen torque) than a conventional motor and you have a situation where the vehicle response gets jerky very quickly. Even with a well calibrated throttle foot.

The rate of car sickness in EV's is much higher than ICE. It's quickly becoming a huge problem in China as they are moving toward EV's much quicker than we are in the US.

Now he may still be a bad driver without ability to modulate his throttle foot well or simply jumps from throttle to brakes needlessly. I can't make excuses for that. That would only make an already bad situation even worse.

I experienced exactly what you described when I drove some of our schools hybrids and ev’s. The brake felt like an on- off switch.

@mepstein

Yeah that's another whole story. Some OEM's rather than do the heavy regen when you lift from the throttle do it when you touch the brake pedal.

Early in the stop they use the brake pedal to trigger the regen when the energy transfered to the battery is high. Later on as the vehicle slows, they do a transition between EV regen and the hydraulic brakes. Often that transition point isn't very smooth either.

Lot's of work and refinement still needed for EV's that is completly outside of the standard issues with range, availability of charging and the other usual gripes.

All of this is what makes me smile thinking about getting my 914 back on the road eventually with a sweet sounding six!

You still there? Let me know if I can help.
Warren

Hmm, I didn't have problem when I test drove as model.

[quote name='Superhawk996' date='Mar 3 2020, 04:49 PM' post='2791197']
[quote name='mepstein' post='2791191' date='Mar 3 2020, 07:43 PM']

I experienced exactly what you described when I drove some of our schools hybrids and ev’s. The brake felt like an on- off switch.
[/quote]

@mepstein

Yeah that's another whole story. Some OEM's rather than do the heavy regen when you lift from the throttle do it when you touch the brake pedal.

Early in the stop they use the brake pedal to trigger the regen when the energy transfered to the battery is high. Later on as the vehicle slows, they do a transition between EV regen and the hydraulic brakes. Often that transition point isn't very smooth either.

Lot's of work and refinement still needed for EV's that is completly outside of the standard issues with range, availability of charging and the other usual gripes.





















It's all shit from radio shack.
"The hurt locker"

Back on topic. My.02 is that if you had all the tools, parts, and ancillaries; a 6 conversion could be done in a very short amount of time, a few weekends maybe.
But...it never goes like that. You always run into issues that need to be repaired or improvements you'd like to make.

Oil tank and lines hardest part? Welding in the new engine mount?

Yes and wiring

I did a 2.4 /6 conversion so I know what is involved. I did most of it myself in my garage in my spare time. I like to think I did it right, too.

It is and/or can be: exciting, lots of planning, dreaming & thinking. Time consuming, wallet draining, worrying, frustrating, waiting, & impossible to finish. At the end and during first start-up; EXHILARATING AND SATISFYING!!!

All of the soul twisting you went through is quickly forgotten, believe me. I suppose it could be compared to childbirth? Lots of worry, then pain, then all forgotten when the healthy baby is bouncing on your knee.

Go for it. We're here to help.

2.4 with carbs doesn't need much wiring or fuel delivery work however, no?

Just adapting the harnesses

I remember that moment in the arc of your conversion—and was so glad when you got through it. It was satisfying from the other side of a keyboard miles away.

To the OP, perhaps the best way to put it is: It is very doable, and hard but far from impossible. Best way to go is to grab the engine for a fair or good price (you can always sell it on, so there isn't much downside) > collect parts > convert when you have everything you think you'll need, and be ready for a curve ball or two > enjoy the ride.