Hi, I haven't been on here for ages, sorry to have missed you all.
I have just been reading an article on the RHD Crayford cars and really would appreciate a value for one.
My car is a 1969 Crayford, in fact I understand it to be the first one ever.

I've owned it for about 30 years and now am considering parting with it, but what's it worth?

Depends on condition and numerous other factors. You’ll need to post a lot more photos/details to get meaningful responses.

Ok, car was delivered new as a LHD, 1700cc, in tangarine to Garage in Dussledorf where it was purchased by David McMullan and taken back to the Crayford car factory in Westerham, Kent. where it was transformed into Right Hand Drive configuration.

Then sold by Malay Garage , after passing through a couple of owners in ended up with a Mr.Terry Forbisher from Norfolk/Suffolk area.

He raced it for a few years before reselling.

Mike Smith, of PRS UK, 356 guru, owned it sometime after Terry and whilst fitted with a Formula super VEE engine of 1600cc, weir solex PII40 carbs it was raced at Mallory park by Trevor Messett, a great Porsche "pedlar" (unfortunately now deceased) where it apparently took a lap record for a 1600cc Porsche.

I came across it a poor state some years later and restored it to use as an every day car.
Now running a 1911cc engine, still on solex twin choke carbs.

I parked it up in my barn about 12 years ago as I was racing my 914/6 and didn't have time to play with it.

I had to have a rear floor section put in a couple of years ago, just before taking it to the Porsche Museum in Stuttgart for the 50th anniversary of the 914---where it was greeted well by the original guys that built the 914s back in the day.

I feel this car should be returned to it's original tangerine colour, and now needing a few rust bubbles on front scuttle in front of windscreen, this is the prime time.

Now in my 70's and too many other projects I feel it may be time to pass this rare car to someone with more time.

Any indication of value would be appreciated.
Thanks

Ian
ian9146@gmail.com

What does the dash look like?

Here is the dash

just before heading to Stuttgart for the 50th.

It depends on the condition and what it's worth to you and the buyer.
You put a value on the RHD kit, then add the price of a comparable LHD 914.
Hard to say what the RHD kit is worth, they don't make them anymore and they didn't make many to start with.

This is one you're likely able to do better at auction or BaT.

I would think it would have more value staying in the U.K. or with other countries that normally drive that configuration.

It's funny, as I'm a big fan of Tangerine 914s and (generally) not as crazy about white 914s, but this car looks great in this color with this ride height and these wheels in these finishes. Not sure what it is, but there's something about it. I don't know as I'd go back to Tangerine if the color change was done well. Part of the car's journey…

RHD and the lap record are more cool things in this car's history, as is the Super Vee engine. I'd want to confirm that 1600cc lap record and include that engine in the sale, if at all feasible. And the more period pics, the better.

Agree BaT makes a lot of sense for this car. As to value, who knows? $20-30k? Or is this something more down the road in terms of interest (and configuration…) of some of the real high-point 914-4s? I have no idea, but I am sure curious.

Above all else: Cool car, and thanks for sharing it!

i recognize that dashboard.

you can count the # of crayfords cars left on the fingers of a one armed man.

think it has been established only were 11 done.

there used to be two in australia in the 70s and 80s.
i knew the owner of one of them well before he passed away in the 2000s.
car survives in sydney.
other car disappeared from view in the 90s.
it may still be here in aus - no-one has seen it for a long time.
both 73 cars that arrived in 74 via malaya motors (i think - there was some deal via malaya or an english dealer with crayfords that was the ordering set up).

a guy on this site, lives in sydney i met last year, was trying to track down the crayfords cars. don't know what he came up with survivor nos.

there was a advert a few years ago for a green crayfords car with severe rust issues for sale in UK. i'd be surprised if anyone could realistically have saved that car.
another car found its way back to the UK a few years ago, advert claimed it was a crayfords converted car that went to Malaysia? or Singapore? via Western Australia?

the crayfords car that went to Hong Kong was spotted in Macua in the 80s by the late owner of the crayfords car here that i knew. i saw photos of it 25 years ago. that car was already a rolling wreck at that time. i doubt it survived.

my guess is there are only three of them left on the road globally.
1 here. 2 in the UK (incl yours)? and maybe 2 more not on road (1 other here?/1 in uk).

yours is #1.

a rhd crayfords car featured on the cover of CAR magazine july 71 .
though that car was blue with a tan interior. thats a special car too i guess.
seemed to be the one all the magazine road tests were done in.
probably long gone and recycled as a toaster by now.

its a car with great historical value.
i don't know what its worth.
but its important.

the only other cars, converted in that era when the cars were new were the two 6s that came into aus via the distributor. at min. one of those was converted here in the distributors workshop. there are stories that the other one came in via japan already converted to rhd. i've only seen the one that came in via japan. the conversion was quite different in detailed appearance compared to the crayfords cars. the other one was for many years an "urban legend" - said to have been written off in a head on crash.
but the man in sydney says it exists and has been the subject of a long rebuild and restoration. he showed me some photos of it. so its still out there. its conversion might be different again since it was done here for sure.

nice car by the way.

ps
i think its difficult for folks in the USA to understand the history of the RHD conversion thing. matters get confused by the industry that rose in Aus in the 80s and 90s converting second hand 914s imported from the USA. that was an aberration caused by a variety of economic and regulatory factors and resulted in a batch of rhd cars 20 years later either by individuals in backyard garages or an assortment of cottage industry operators. before that, there was no RHD conversion going on re 914s. there were just the crayfords cars - all of which were ordered by original purchasers of new cars and who lived in ex british colonies in the far east or were resident uk citizens. that is what distinguishes the cars. crayfords started and ended with the cars when new - straight from the factory.

@dr914@autoatlanta.com

aus car dashboard.
photos from when it was for sale a decade ago.
same stitched seam around joint with instrument pod binnacle.
it was the only way it could be done in those days?

all the later aus 80s cars pretty much have one piece vinyl skinned dash tops.
many are padded.

the crayfords cars dashtops are solid. vinyl? more or less stretched and glued directly over a fibreglass moulding.

your #1 car would be like that?

the other white car in aus that has disappeared had the same dashtop.
i believe crayfords used leather and not vinyl but not 100% sure on that.

the 6 that i have seen and still see from time to time that was one of the distributor's cars had a similar hand stitched seam around the binnacle, but the dash top was padded under the covering just like a factory car - and included the ashtray. crayfords deleted the ash tray.

its pretty easy to tell a crayfords car from the numerous aus conversions dating 20 years or so later in time.

also i noticed the badging on the back of your car.
i take it thats original with the deletion of vw badging and the addition of neat little crayfords badge (with homage to henry ford, crayfords had links to ford?). the cars that were here both had the the factory vw-porsche european badge on the back. no crayfords badge. very unique to have that crayfords badge.


Click to view attachment

There are {were ?) two RHDS IN Singapore. This orange one belonged to Meng Fong; he subsequently passed away and the car was sold.
The second 914 is yellow, owner not know to me. I have a pic of both together

Here ya go; Meng had a serious crash in the above 914. A shell was shipped from CA to Singapore where the car was completely rebuilt; hence the new look

As Len & wonkipop said - I really believe that this is a question for the collector car experts from the UK, OZ (Australia), or a Kiwi (New Zealand), etc. where Crawford RHD conversions were sold.

Aside from condition - if you can document the provenance of prior owners, history & that it truly is #1 or a very early Crawford - then you'll have a highly collectable & rare example.

Perhaps Sotheby's UK can help you on that, as well as for the sale by auction for best price. Think high end & rare cars - not the BaT & smaller auctions & consignment dealers, but it will need to be in tip-top like for the 50th.

If the #1 Crawford, then that should be a fairly valuable car, & different than anything that we've seen here in the USA, Canada, Europe.

It certainly is not the value of the car plus a no longer available conversion kit alone.

Good luck on the research & sale - or insurance appraisal if you're keeping it as a collectable show car.

And ....


PS - You might also want to check with the Porsche Museum in Stuttgart to see if they would have an interest in the #1 Crawford, assuming that you can document that.

Cheers Mate!
Tom
///////

That sucks, I didn't know Meng had passed.

the yellow car in the garage next to the red meng car went back to the UK.
it is claimed in sale advert that it was a crayfords car, 75 model. there is a story a 75 or 74 came originally to aus direct from crayfords to western australia but could never be road registered. the story went it was sold to someone in singapore in 1980 and left the country.

would make sense as the two 73s that came into aus via crayfords as first owner cars were the last gasp and last chance. something occurred in relation to the ADRs (australian design rules) that meant the cars after that would not meet standards, but not certain on exact reasons. so the 75 model or was it a 74, no one is clear, had registration difficulties. (australia is funny about putting cars on the road, as there was provision for what is called a personal import, those cars don't have to meet all the ADRs, but for some reason that third car didn't make it in the right way).

its known 1 went to hong kong, likely thats the macau car that was seen in the 80s already a rolling wreck. and 1 went to singapore or malaysia or 1 each to singapore and malaysia. possibly the red meng car? that then ended up rebodied as said above?
the red car has wiper set up reversed. crayfords never bothered with that in all the cars i have seen. nor have i seen anyone reverse the wiper set up in later conversions down here.

i last saw the white car that was in australia just before i left for the USA in 1988.
i had tried to buy it in 1986 or 87. the owner of the car made contact with the organiser of the first australian 914 register in the early to mid 90s, so he still had it then.
i've not seen either him or the car since.

the green crayfords car had two owners up until the late 90s.
i was offered it by the second owner, the guy who established the first version of the 914 aus register. i agonized but decided to keep my 1.8, too much sentiment attached and not enough funds for two cars.

as far as i know no crayfords cars went to NZ.
they are a very rare beast because they were unbelievably expensive back in their day.
no rational person ordered one, you had to be obsessively fixated on having a 914.
it was cheaper to buy a new 911 in aus than do the crayfords thing.
how many people would do that?
i imagine the story is the same re uk cars.
what would you have. a crayfords RHD 914/4 or a factory RHD 911 for same or even less$?
i don't believe any 6s were done by crayfords but i might be wrong.

here is what i have.

the metallic green 73, 2.0 still in aus.

Click to view attachment

white 73, 2.0 was in aus, still may be. last seen by me in 88.
(in 88 it still looked like it did in modern motor article, graphics, unique aftermarket alloys, front spoiler, blacked out chrome targa trim, windscreen protector clips - thats real aussie stuff you fixed a mesh screen in front of windscreen for the all too common windscreen destruction flying rock moment when you would have had to ship in a screen from europe at great cost because the aussie distributor had you by the nuts, in 88 still untouched and intact - even remember how much it sold for in circa 86 - $17,500 AUD, i was trying to haggle down to 15K, got walked right over the top of).

Click to view attachment

yellow car parked next to meng car, back in uk. (may have been the third aus car?).

Click to view attachment

the green uk crayfords car in a bad way.

Click to view attachment Click to view attachment

The script and badge were not origanally fitted to the rear my car by Crayfords
Ian

who cares about the badges. they are cute.

its a great car.
i wish i could buy it.
too poor.

but i know what it is.
great that it survives.

Also check out Collecting Cars as a sales platform. They seem to be gaining a lot of traction in the UK and EMEA

Another thing that's part of its story now.

I really hope the car can stay in the UK, and that it goes to someone who appreciates it and keeps it original with a functional restoration (attend to what's obvious, nothing more). I like the look of the car as you've kept it, including the color, wheels, and badging.

I am sure some will disagree, and that's ok, but I love your story with it—and thank you for preserving this piece these last 30 years.

Pete

i agree.

there is a certain point where the industrial object gets - well for want of a better word - gets looked at self consciously. i don't mean to sound high faluten - i'm not/or maybe i am.
but you just kind of keep them at that point is what i reckon is the right attitude.

i'm a bit dubious about restorations back to points in time. because..... how can that ever be real anyway.

it would be nice if it could stay in the uk.
i can appreciate its history - given the way australia used to be so attached (in an awful way) to britain, the queen, all that dead colonial hoo hah. the 914 is all around the time of the common market and britain finally having to cut its last ties with its far east remnants of an empire, which no longer existed in any meaningful economic way.

the crayfords 914s are fascinating because in the 1970s it was the only way you were going to get one in aus. the distributor was a no no on them ever coming in here and wanted nothing to do with anyone who had one, whatever way it arrived, apart from the two 6s he had brought in.

the fact that only 2 of those crayfords cars ever got on the roads down here tells you how difficult it was.

must seem pretty funny to americans.
i still remember being in chicago in 88 and seeing so many 914s still on the road, everywhere. yet they were probably one of the most exotic cars ever on australian roads. its a funny old world.

but the fact that the first crayfords car could still exist is astounding.

and contrary to some views that think they were some kind of illegitmate butcher job.
they weren't. crayfords went to a lot of trouble to get them right --- its not some backyard hack operation, they had to put them through a legitimate engineering certification exercise, and whatever else the brits might be, they sure knew how to run a hard core bureaucracy back then in terms of approvals.

you could not buy a car and then take it to crayfords. oh no. you had to order the car legit through a certain porsche dealer in the uk and then it had to go to crayfords and then come back. it was all an attempt to do it properly and in a quality controlled environment - up to scratch. to make it work economically the factory would have had to give the distributor in the uk and crayfords a good price on the raw wholesale product.
but they did not. the numbers were not there for a porsche for the masses in the colonies of the fading british empire. it just did not compute. but america. yep.
there was still a snob barrier but it was not as impenetrable.

somewhere i have a copy of the crayfords engineering approval certificate that was supplied to all owners of the converted cars.

I took a few pictures of that rare 914 during the 50th anniversary meeting in Heidelberg two years ago. Your car was a rare sight indeed, Ian, and I admire you for driving it all the way down from England to meet with the folks of the German 914 Club.
Greetings to the UK

Arno

nice images.
that would have got the germans all excited.

there is a few secrets to a crayfords car.
and anyone down here who has had to convert one might have realised the attention to detail they figured out.

the big one is the pedals.
its not a 911 rhd pedal cluster.

a lot of later converted cars in aus just use a 911 rhd pedal cluster.
oh no. mistake.

crayfords worked over the original pedal cluster, and not because they were hacks or cheapskates, its because they realised the car was wider and the standard 911 pedal cluster throws the pedals too far left for the seat position.

they used a part from the 911 pedal cluster for the throw arm on the clutch.
and they really worked over the brake pedal and cut it and welded it with a piece to displace the arm further right. and they worked the gas pedal further right - as far as they could, at least in the car down here i looked over very closely back in the 90s.

a german guy down here worked out what they did and copied them with his conversions and i used the green crayfords car as the model for mine.

if you try and drive one where they did not sweat the pedals, .....well its really awful.
everyone knows how hard it is getting your knees under the steering wheel of a standard lhd one. imagine that all wrong. its worse than driving a 1970s italian sports car.

crayfords really got it right.
you can see it in those photos above.

if my memory is right, crayfords even slightly raised the steering wheel, not a lot, but a little bit and just enough to make it easier to get in. it resulted in having to make a slice in the firewall where it bends over to accomodate the steering wheel diagonal shaft.
just makes it that tiny bit easier to get in and out of the car.

its great to see photos of this car. i can appreciate it.

another funny thing.
they never bothered to fill in the lhs hand brake sill depression.
the green one down here is the same.

i didn't copy that bit on mine.
but i get their logic.
symmetry?

they also did another funny thing which was mirror the instrument pod arrangement.
factory rhd 911s retain the instruments per lhd (speedo, tach, temp) and shift it across without mirroring.

also they shifted the fusebox across to the rhs. which is a hell of a lot of trouble extending wires from the main loom. its far easier to leave it to the left and just extend instrument panel switch wiring.

interesting set of decisions they made.

all of which distinguish the cars from later antipodean varieties.

It's interesting that VW & Porsche had in fact engineered & manufactured the 914s such that they could be both LHD & RHD from the factory - as they did with most other VW & Porsche models - but they never did so themselves for the 914.


That is odd because they probably could have sold quite a few 1000s more to the RHD markets in the UK, Ireland, OZ, NZ, South Africa & Japan - if it were only offered with the controls on the "proper side" for those markets.


Cheers!
Tom
///////

Hi Ian,
It's James (23eheure) from DDK.
I believe you know already that it's Andy (andytat) who bought and imported (to the UK) the yellow Crayford from Hong Kong, back in 2017.
Have you seen his car up close? For sure it's nowhere near as original as yours, as it now runs a 3.0SC motor and 915 box.
Perhaps you could find out what he paid for it, and use that (and relative condition to yours) as basis for a market estimate value for your own.
Cheers,

Whoa!

I want to know more about your shop!

my guess is VW controlled the decision since they owned the karmann plant.

looked at closely, a 914 is less universal as a monocoque in lhd form.
very purist, fuel tank and battery offset drivers weight when only a driver in the car.
a lot of special panels would have been needed. mirroring of front bulkhead foot wells,
unique fuel tank, rhd wiring loom. 911s and other aircooled vws like beetle, type 3 not asymmetric to the same degree.

its interesting where the cars did end up in the pacific. i've seen photos of 914s in tahiti (former french colony). anywhere left hand drive - they seemed to find their way to.
i'm sure the tahiti cars would be piles of rust dust by now.

vw were in trouble in aus by the early 70s. the japanese onslaught was in full swing.
the beetle ended here before anywhere else in the world. they never even bothered with 411s - would have been too expensive to compete against japanese cars. south africa did get 411s and 412s.

datsun 240zs sold like hot cakes down here as well as maxda rotaries. i think 914s would not have stood a chance. vw had a rational view on numbers and profits and no sentiment when it came to their inability to compete with the J cars. i think even subaru got their big start down here. those little 4 wheel drive subaru wagons and utes would go anywhere and in more comfort than a bigger toyota landcruiser or land rover. i remember people traded straight out of their type 3 squarebacks which were a very popular car here in late 60s/early 70s into subaru wagons. if i remember right a lot of vw dealerships transformed into subaru dealerships. the japanese smashed the brits and european cars. in the 80s the european makes were not here anymore. it was just J cars and the local GM and Ford product.

Japan tested itself for the USA market by coming to Aus for practice. it helped we were a right hand drive country too. started down here 5 - 10 years before they took on the US.

to give an idea, the #s on rhd karmann ghia type 3s sold in aus - was not in the thousands, was in the hundreds. probably the closest car to compare the 914/4 to is ghia type 3s. might even be more 914s in australia now than ghia 3s that survived.

the trick to getting a rhd 914 in australia in early 70s was via a sort of tourist delivery.
if you owned the car and used it for 3 months in europe there were significant reductions in custom duty and sales tax when you shipped it in. so you had to co-ordinate either a summer holiday in europe or a working stay in london/uk with the purchase. would not mind betting the paperwork on the orders for the two 914s that were in australia that i knew had london addresses. they would have to or otherwise you were in the catagory of commercial importer.

the porsche distributor here did have a scheme for tourist delivery on 911s back in that era to assist customers in reducing the cost of those cars.

it was a kind of similar thing to get hold of the 914 - except the distributor in aus would not help you, or the factory. instead you did it all through a uk dealer, malaya motors i think, it was an exclusive arrangement and the only way to get the rhd car.

vw had the heyday in aus in the 50s and 60s. by the 70s they were in real trouble.
even the golf did not save them. was too expensive to compete against the J cars.
they fully withdrew before the mark 2 golf came out. did not come back until the mid 90s when J cars started to increase in cost.

one of the benefits though is we did get a few exotic J cars down here since we were RHD too. i can remember the dentist in my country town briefly owned a toyota 2000 GT.
there were a few mazda cosmos here as well. also those great little subsized toyota and honda convertibles from real early on. in the 80s J collectors came down and took most of them back.

understanding the second wave of rhd 914s that by and large happen in aus,
and aside from individual owners picking one up and converting them due to interest from when they were younger, there was a cottage industry sending classic "foreign" cars into J. it started i'm told with rhd mgs still down here, being restored and shipped to rhd J in the early to mid 80s. australia is so dry a lot of them were "rust free" - hence the attraction for J.

when the local supply of mgs started to dry up the trade turned to california as a source for "rust free" cars and they just developed high quality conversions that were commercially sustainable given the prices that the cars would fetch in J. other british makes of sports cars were also part of the mix. the J had some thing for british cars at that time and they could not get enough of them.

a few others tried the commercialisation of imported rust free US cars and conversion into the aus market directly, but the numbers never added up. it was really the J market at that time that drove things.

i got some guys who were well into the MG conversion market to do the main structural and engineering work on converting my 914. they were interested to do one to see if they could expand their inventory and test 914s in J.
they were good guys who were open minded about how to approach it and also had a very good reputation. i agreed to let them proceed at their own pace in return for pretty much a cost + deal. i dealt with a lot of the cosmetic issues that would have wasted their time, but they did all the serious work.

key was we had access to a crayfords car. its one thing to look at photos, its another thing to look very closely at a car itself and in detail. that took all the guess work out and made us think twice about any compromises. there were all sorts of clues in the crayfords car which made you think a bit harder, check measurements, think again etc.

was how i learned just what crayfords did and now know too much useless information.

we did steering wheel lift mod exactly as per crayfords. though we didn't slice the upper firewall for the shaft. we beat it up a little more gracefully to get the clearance. some 914s down here converted ended up with steering wheels so low they were in your lap. we picked up on what they had done with their pedals by looking very closely at one. the owner of that car had also owned 911s so he raised it early on - not a factory rhd 911 pedal cluster. i can't remember where the dashboard mould came from anymore, but it came via a contact of the owner of the crayfords car and the story there was it was a crayfords mould that had ended up in WA back in the 70s and found its way to a guy in melbourne with a lot of interest in 914s. i think that guy is still alive so i should go ask him.

as a result i got an appreciation of just how right crayfords got it back then.

at the end of it all, the mg converters concluded it just was not commercially viable to do 914s. too many hours.

there is another 914 down here in melbourne from around the same time as mine, the owner of that car similarly knew the owner of the crayfords car and accessed it too.
the conversion done on that car was extremely good, done by a different workshop.
that car went up to qld for many years but is now back here and is owned by a guy i know, so i see it again frequently. its good to drive. everything is in the right place.

Thank you for sharing all of this information, wonkipop! Very interesting to read! In Japan many imports drive around as LHD, as it is sort of "cool" to have the steering wheel on the "wrong" side. When visiting Tokyo I have seen many LHD Mercedes and BMW´s. I think, there is so much traffic, they never intend to take over annother car anyways.
Is it illegal to drive a LHD car in down under? Is RHD mandatory on all cars?
For example, here in Germany you can drive a RHD car if you wish to do so. It is not illegal.
Cheers, Arno

Found one more picture, expert discussion.

it was not possible to register a left hand drive car in aus until sometime after the end of 20th century. i can't remember the exact date arno, i was distracted by life when that happened. but basically they introduced historic vehicle club registration which allowed for special interest vehicles to be registered left hand drive. they have to be certain age, over 25 years old.

before that happened there was only regular road registration.
which is what happened to me back in the early 90s.
no alternative but to convert.

if only i had had a crystal ball.
but on the other hand with all the SUVs on the road now and trying to peer through them with x ray vision i was not born with, its kind of ok to be rhd. i can drive the 914 nice and hard on windy country roads and get around the bloated silver or black monstrosities that hog the road in front of me (though its a bit nerve wracking extracting enough power out of the wimpy 1.8).

----
its true there has always been a perverse snob thing in J with LHD cars.
but at the same time there is/or was a bigger market for J drivers who do more than cruise around tokyo at 15 mph pretending to be french.
i've been there and i have seen some kamikazi stuff go on - motor cycle riders at dawn, even through the streets of traditional districts like yanuka in the middle of old tokyo - right on the white line down the middle of the road at unbelievable speed. they all are so constricted by polite behaviour, but when they unleash....... who knows what happens up in the country side. there are some japanese who like to drive real fast. back in the 80s they used to ship their cars out to aus to drive in the northern territory as fast as you could do when we had unrestricted speed limits there. thats all by the wayside now. you want a rhd car for that sort of business.

the angst about the pedals is real.
if any of you ever got the chance to drive a lhd 911 and then hop straight into a rhd 911 you would instantly understand.

it all feels right in a lhd 911. you stretch out for the gas pedal left hand drive and you punch the clutch straight out in front. the pedals are skewed but it suits LHD.
(same goes for a 914 lhd).

imagine stretching your leg to punch the clutch where the gas pedal is!

a 911 is narrower than a 914 and the skewed business is "manageable".
its even more skewed in a 914.

study some photos of the pedals in lhd 911s compared to rhd 911s.
you will see what i mean.

in a rhd 911 the brake and clutch pedals are really close together.
in a lhd they are spread apart and the brake pedal is close to the accelerator pedal.

so its not good to just stick a rhd 911 pedal cluster into a rhd 914.

crayfords cut the brake pedal as far as we could tell and welded a piece to extend it across to the right and get it closer to the accelerator pedal.
the porsche factory should have taken a close look at what they did.
it was a bunch of right hand drive country engineers making a critique of the job the lhd drive country did producing rhd cars (ie their rhd 911s).

even today i see rhd 911s in aus that guys have done all sorts of work to the pedals on to try and get a level of comfort that suits their style.

converting to rhd was not simply a matter of reproducing the lhd dimensions.
things change when you go to the other side of the car.
and somehow crayfords got it right and they did this by adjusting things.

i've sat in a few rhd 914s down here.
i've sat in some that just make you wonder what was going through the head of the person who did it. and what went wrong?
the crayfords cars feel natural and right.
because of that they are the template.
not that anyone is ever going to do it ever again.

Don't be so sure, wonkipop! The guys at Terror Garage in Indonesia plan to convert this one to RHD! : 914 in West Java

Wonki -

It's nice to have another member with the passion for sharing info & details and for sharing them on here! Thanx & keep up the info flow!

You may have noted my "TMI...." at my avatar.

Now if you were also a fellow Rugger....

Cheers Mate!
Tom
///////

Ian & Arno - Thanx for sharing the pix & history on this great first or early Crawford!

Ian - can you also please post a few pix of your 914-6 racer for the masses?

Cheers Mates!
Tom
///////

ah, thats great.

might have to go see those guys after covid.
learned bahasa indonesia in high school - i could probably cut the rust out of my brain enough to be misunderstood.
wouldn't mind checking out the indo scene.

aussie rules down here in oz-mexico, old game is played north of the murray river.

I had played your Footie Cousin - Gaelic Football, a few times back in college 1970-74 when playing Soccer (Football) with the Irish Rovers Athletic Club in the LA Area.

But they frowned on too much contact, as did Soccer & your Footie.

So I was never inclined to try Footie - although there is/was a local Footie Club here in Orange County CA, nor to continue playing Soccer nor Gaelic Football after college.

But I did continue playing Rugby Union for 26 years from collegiate thru our Div 1 Club & Grad School, then Old Boyz 1970-96.

I just preferred the more physical XVs - even over our American Football that I'd played age 7-17 high school.

Your post info didn't say where in OZ you're at, but SW-OZ makes sense for Footie.

Gotta love those all too serious about themselves guys in white coats & hats pointing for scores!


Tom
///////

live in home of aussie rules, melbourne.
supposedly a mixture of gaelic football and indigenous game of marngrook.
there used to be a lot more biffo in it in the old days when it was a slog fest played out in the mud of suburban ovals -- the old hip and shoulder etc. games been cleaned up and post modernised. not sure if for the better.

gaelic footy has the round ball - slightly easier to control than the oval ball.

the goal umpires are part clowns. all fun.
indigenous players are the stars of the game....so they should be - its their game.

i don't mind watching rugby but was way too lightweight to ever play it.
way too skinny, but suited to field positions in aussie rules where you had to be fast.
when i did play footy in high school i was out on the wing. run fast, bounce often and stab kick/punch it in to the full forward (you have to slow down to punt kick at higher altitude) and stay clear of getting run down and tackled by anyone bigger than me. once you got rid of the ball no one could touch you.....theoretically.
though a few times i got cleaned up in the sort of equal of whats it called in american football....getting sacked? used to happen about 1 second after i had disposed.
you would get a free kick out of it, if you could see between the stars.
tackles could be pretty hard in aussie rules, esp when there was a mass difference because you were usually going flat out when you were brought down.

ps - i know/knew a few maori boys who played the old game in NZ.
big units.
you would not want to run into one of them out on the field.
haka etc.

A lot of interesting information Wonkipop. I am a little concerned however that readers from the USA or Germany may think that Australians never use upper case letters for the beginning words of sentences.

G'day Wonki -

I wondered if it were Melborne, since I have some PBS/ABS shows that I like to watch set there in Vik & SE-OZ; Dr. Blake, Miss Fisher's Murder Mysteries, as well as having some Mates here over the years from the deep dark south end of OZ. One Rugger teammate went back to OZ in the 1990's, & was a Civil Engineer, but last I heard he relocated up in Sydney for the firm doing large projects. Our Irvine Coast RFC had a string of Ozzies coming through & changing out every few years when their visitor visas or work visas ran out, then went back to OZ.

I appreciated your "their game" indigenous comment, being one myself of ours (Cherokee/Seneca).

Size was why I never played our football beyond High School, but Rugby XVs offered more sizes & positions to still play full-on contact ball. Being "vertically challenged" at 5-9 myself & playing weight of only 150-170 during my years, but played at Scrumhalf - so I was always mixing it up with the Scrummie "big units", & have played with teammates & opposite Maoris, Samoans & other of the large unit Islanders. You just learn to be tough & try not to get hit blind sided, nor Dance on your head" when caught in the bottom of a Loose Scrum.

So back to things 914 - I saw on your own topic for your 914s recommissioning that it's riding high up front, & on tires (tyres).

What most of us do is to adjust (turn) the front torsion bars adjustments to pull the front ends down 1-2 inches - then the handling gets much better & weight distribution goes to dead-on 50:50 weight distribution. Your 914 will handle much better at level to 0.5-1" lower up front.

Also your SP57 tires were Da Bomb back in the day before they went to hard rubber with age - if anything too soft & therefore piss-poor wear of 10-20,000 miles if you baby them. I had better luck with Semperit M401/M501 with the same dog-bone tread design, but lasted 40,000+/-, which was important in 1975> on a tight budget.

Today they are repopping the Michi XAS that you have & some period correct look with modern rubber compounds Pirelli, and a few others. Look on Longstone Tyre UK website for some ideas, then see if they have an OZ affiliate or similar vintage tyre seller down under.

There is a Tires & Wheels nailed topic in the Originality & History Forum which posted some of the OEM size tires - if that's the direction you're wanting. Otherwise, the Garage Forum will get you better feedback on modern wider lower profile tires that work.

However, since your 914 is so low mile, & you won't want to use any tire which will give you "ghost mileage" (e.g.: 195/65R15, 205/60R15, etc.) - nor that will cause rubbing damage to your wheel wells.

The same would apply to the OP's Crawfords in here, it being so unique.

If you don't mind less mpg & a bit harder turning at low speed - they're still repopping the old school racer favorite Michi 185/70VR15 XWX with the , but they're pricey, and will look good on an all stock car (RHD convert aside).

While not the old school dogbone SP57 look - Dunlop Classic does have Sport Classic in both 165/80HR15 & 185/70VR15 flavors. But it's tread pattern reminds more of the Michi that came OE on my `85 BMW 325e E30 coupe - where I may use them.

And for the more economical end of classic size tires - Vredestein's Sprint Classic also comes in both of those sizes, but the tread is more of the Brit Tyre look on XKE, MGB, etc. to me.

Hopefully this will help you get your 914's feet sorted.

Ian the OP on here is probably well acquainted with Longstone Tyres, and may be able to offer other classic choices to shod 914s in the UK & Commonwealth.

Hope this helps mate.

Cheers!
Tom
///////

thanks tom, nice to hear of your first nations blood.

i have a little indigenous genetic material but its a long long long way back, mixed in with irish.

i've sorted out the front of the 14, that photo was taken immediately after we had put it back down on wheels, we had the suspension all apart front and rear to redo bushings, shocks, etc. now have it set up dead level front to back.

running new reissue 165 XAS on it, the car does not see rain so wet weather performance does not worry me. so far i'm enjoying the tyres. plenty of grip, probably due to modern soft compound different to back in 60s/70s. positives are the steering is light and wriggly. want to get it out somewhere where i can't slide into a curb - think we are going to line up a skid pan day with some friends at a country facility. doesn't matter if i spin it then, nothing to smack sideways and derange the suspension (and cost $$$$$$). that will give me a pretty good idea where the limits of vintage performance are.

got to get properly used to the 14 again. no real power. it feels familiar after all this time but i've been polluted by tooling around in a little french hot rod for years (front wheel drive renault sport clio 172). its a great car but the total opposite of the 914. another car i won't ever be letting go of.

G'day Wonki -

You can probably flog your 914 on regular roads pretty well once you get used to driving it again, since they're pretty intuitive. If you have it now set to 1/2" to 1" low in the front, then you'll find that you just start thinking about turning in, & the 914 starts going that way.

Your non-California USA 74 1.8L is a tad bit less HP & TQ than the 70-72 1.7 & better than the 73 US & Calif 1.7 - as you can see in the chart below for USA 914 Specs:

Click to view attachment

The similar Euro/UK/ROW specs were a few HP & TQ points higher in all cases, than in that chart above. In your case the 1.8 it would've been dual carb (not the L-jet EFI in USA) & about 86-ish HP DIN as I recall.

So it's all preservation of momentum with 914 4s & and many other classic Euro & UK sports cars of that day.

Learning that served me well later on with our 1988 Westfalia (T25) that we've had since new, & did many cross country trips wit the 4 of us & loaded to the gills, over the Rockies, etc. - as I did with 2 & fully loaded in my 914.

I've never driven the Clio, but dated "a little french hot rod" back in 76-77 with my 73 914-2.0 "914S".

Cheers & Enjoy!

my 14 is american sourced from my stay in chicago back in 88-90.
L jet.
which i like.
had twin carbs on my squareback. ok when they were in tune, which was about 5% of the time. solex carbs too - awful. the linkage set up was not the greatest design vw ever came up with. never seen a euro 1.8, there would not be any here. hope they did a better job on the carb linkage than they did on the type 3.

the majority of 14s here are usa sourced, apart from that initial bunch of cars, less than 10, that arrived here in the early 70s. i remember driving the metallic green crayfords car back in the 90s. euro spec 2.0 with djet. it had a lot of get up and go.
i know i'm not supposed to say this, but my impression of it was that it was at least as fast off the line as a standard tune 6 in everyday traffic as i also had a brief drive of the same owners 6 when he first got hold of it. though after he finished with giving it a once over, it was a fair bit fast than a euro 2.0 4. what i remember most about the 6 was just how much louder it was in the cabin. i've read elsewhere the euro spec 2.0 4 was a fairly good match for the 2.0 L 6. a lot of down low torque in the 4.
don't rev out as nicely as a 6, or have the great fan scream sound.

don't think the usa got renault clios.

i'm not disappointed by the XAS tyres/(tires). i have the soft bilsteins on. the car has sway bars front and rear. the 165s make it ride comfortably on the sometimes crappy roads around here without being too soft - they have a lot of compliance in the sidewalls. i went back to skinny tyres because i wanted to recover a different experience of driving. the clio gives me my modern fix. i'm not into originality for display/concourse reasons, don't do that scene, i'm interested in the driving experience of originality.

my third car is a big citroen xm. the "fleet" is all about variety.
i inherited an 08 audi A3 "sportwagen" and had it for a while. i hated the feel of driving it and gave it away it was so bad.

currently i am cutting the rust out of a 94 ford falcon ute. you think a 914 has a hell hole. the fords managed to recreate krakatoa right behind the passenger cab.
i'm looking forward to getting that ute on the road. aussie ranchero

Wonki -

I gave you the USA specs so you could see the numbers for yours from Chicago.

Yes, both Djet & Ljet EFI were & are far less of a PITA than multi-carbs - geesh "Synchronizing Battles" & rejetting for altitude - what a royal pain!

So I was happy to get my `73 2L with EFI & no worries! I'd looked at MGB/MGC, Fiat 124 Spyder & Coupe, Alpha, TR4, 4A & TR6, big Healy 3000, & Sprites/Sprigets, etc. as alternatives - but the 914 won out for me back in 1975!

You're speaking to the choir as another 73 2L H4 owner myself, about a well tuned 73-74 914-2.0 in either USA 95 HP or Euro Spec 100 HP out performing in traffic, standard road use, etc. - against a standard tuned 914-6 (which used the `69 911T 120 HP USA 2.0L H6 - detuned to 110 HP for the 914-6).

"The secret is in the sauce" as they used to say - the "sauce" being that the 2L H4 had more TQ & at lower RPM than the -6, and its HP was better at lower rpm - until the -6 got spun-up. The -6 would pull out ahead at the top end, but not in traffic nor city streets where it can't get wound up.

And there are tuning tricks that the old hands know to make the stock 73-74 914-2.0 perform as well as the 914-6 & 911T/L (in standard USA Spec) - including swapping in the Euro P&C/Heads for a tad more power - especially once they got 89 octane mid-grade unleaded here in the USA for the 8.0 CR Euro spec, so that you'd test okay for California Smog.

Fortunately I've been going to an Austrian born & trained, 914 specialist since 1969, from the SoCal Porsche Dealers late 1960s - early 70s, then his own shop since 1972 - who knows them extremely well, including all of the tricks. I started going to him in 1975 to PPI a couple dozen 914s 70-75.

I had also tried the 75 & 76 2Ls new at dealers, but was unimpressed, as you can tell from the chart above - especially with California smog equipment & Crapalytic converter dropping them from 88 HP to about 80-82 HP IIRC (dealers had a 1 page insert in the 914 brochure noting the lower HP & TQ for the Calif 75 & 76 2L).

Your Michelin XAS 165/80HR15 or their XWX 185/70VR15 are my top choices for reshodding my 914 when the resto/renno/repairs are done.

I've also looked at some classic look Blockley 165/80VR15 & 185/70VR15 with the SP57 & XWX style dogbone tread - but don't know if I can get them here in the States - & OZ may have them.

https://www.blockleytyre.com/product/165vr15

https://www.blockleytyre.com/product/185-70vr15


The above & below tire options are for others reading & needing 914 tires in OE styles & brands.

There are also Pirelli Cinturato Classic tires in the USA & UK (& probably OZ & NZ too) -

https://www.cinturato.net/pirelli-classic-tyres.html

USA - Lucas Tires Long Beach in SoCal:
https://www.lucasclassictires.com/Pirelli-Collection_c54.htm

UK - Longstone Tyres:
https://www.longstonetyres.co.uk/pirelli-collezione.html

There are also several other tire dealers selling vintage tires from Michelin, Pirelli, etc. - so google the size &/or maker &/or type that you want, in order to find the best dealer, location & price for you all.



Wonki - your Citroen XM is nice too, with the Maserati motor!

Cheers!
Tom
///////

no the xm does not have the maserati motor. only the older SMs from the 70s have that.
xms come later after citroen sold off maserati (or was that peugeot buying citroen and forcing them to discard maserati, a very tortured financial history).

early xms had what is called a PRV V6. an early version of that went in the deloreans!
volvos too. an odd firing PRV V6. citroen xms got the later even firing PRV V6. but the last of the line/late xms have a V6 that was shared with renault/puegeot and the renault clio V6. a 24 valve motor with 200 HP. what i have. it hauls ass as they say in the states, but does not look like it should. hydraulic suspension is of the later evolved kind - does not wallow about, corners dead flat. a scary car to work on and maintain, everyone steers clear of them. why i have it.

we get all the tyres in aus you mention above. the pirelli cinturatos seem to be what all the early 911 guys and alfa guys are buying up. i have heard they are pretty good and very sticky.

i have the NO branded XAS = tubeless. i did not think you could get them tubeless and had discounted them as an option, then about the time i went to get the car shod i was told they were a new offering so i took the plunge.

thanks for all the info above. pleased to know that my subjective opinion/unreliable memory driving a 2.0 4 was not necessarily out of whack.

Thanx for the XM clarifications Wonki - it still sounds like a fun car.

I too was discounting the prior tube-type XAS, and was leaning to XWX, Blockley or Pirelli in that order for tubeless options (or Vredstein Sprint+).

From what I've been told by the Michelin Techs ate our Porsche Club events (pre-COVID) - you're correct that the earlier release of the XAS was the tube-type, then the Porsche N Spec came out as tubeless as required for that era Porsche tires.

I've been putting this OE sizes tire/tyre info in here for all member coming across it, & yesterday had a chance to update it into the O&H Forum's nailed "Wheels & Tires" nailed topic for those looking for various flavors of the OE 155SR15 (/80) for 1.7L & 1.8L 914/4s, 165HR15 (/80) for 914-6 & 914-2.0 (/4), or 185/70VR15 upgrade/factory option tires for all models/MYs.

After 20018-10 the availability of those OE tire sizes went very thin up until recently here in the States, but now they're coming back with all sorts of Budget to high end, performance & period correct tire choices, from what I found in researching for that up date - with a plethora of choices from $50-ish up to $300+ each.

For those looking for tires - see post #387 -
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...4857&st=380

Cheers Mate!
Tom
///////

took some shots out at workshop today while attending to some running problems on 914.

pedal angst illustrations for those in the asia pacific region who might be still compelled to go RHD.

image of 1975 911 pedal arrangement (factory idea of RHD).
not a lot of space there between the clutch pedal and the brake.




Click to view attachment


wonki 914 pedal layout.
its closer to a lhd arrangement, accelerator to brake.

Click to view attachment

yanki lhd drivers might be looking at weird cross slash angle of brake pedal slot in pedal board (Carpet), check out a lhd clutch pedal angle if you think its too strange!. but its copied from a crayfords car except for one detail. crayfords cut the brake pedal and welded in a displacement piece.
our engineer forbid us to cut and weld the brake pedal but allowed us to heat and bend it into a new shape. so the brake pedal was heated and bent to a new configuration without cutting and welding. the pedal pad itself travels back in space in a straight line but the lever arm travels diagonally as it passes through pedal board. hence strange looking angle in pedal board/carpet slot.
also accelerator pedal further right than even crayfords. small amount of panel beating to wheel well to allow for it, but does not interfere with tyre when turning full lock.
heres why.
i can still sit at angle (steering wheel angle at factory angle to dashboard but mirrored),
but i am not so splayed that i have to overly stretch to clutch pedal. the joys of rhd in either a vw or a porsche - which just get worse in a 914 if you are not careful.

Click to view attachment

steering wheel raised slightly.
also upper firewall beaten up to allow for steering column shaft.
crayfords cut a slot instead.

Click to view attachment

all in all it works.
i sit at correct angle pointed towards centre of car as per lhd.
steering wheel at correct angle to dashboard.
avoid over stretching clutch leg.
accelerator as far right as i could get it.

Click to view attachment

about the only thing that is different from crayfords car i referenced is,
i managed to massage the accelerator a bit further right.

but it works better than a factory 911 pedal box would have.


sitting around in sunshine today on skinny 165 XAS.
end of summer down here in aus.

enjoy your summer and keep on driving on the wrong side of the road.


Click to view attachment

those cocoa mats are the originals turned upside down so i could swing them left to right.
when i get enough spare $ i might order in a set of custom mats and hang up these in the garage. in the meantime they save a bit of wear and tear on the carpets i made up out of some factory stock carpet i managed to score way back in about 92 i think.
last of the roll left in some warehouse in germany.