Just checked this news out today...Cargo ship in the Atlantic looks like a huge loss of Porsche, Audi & VW's. Crew has been rescued...looks like a total loss and an Eco mess for now
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The fire reportedly started in the cargo hold. Perhaps a bad Taycan battery?

From the smoke I'd say it is some of those clean burning VW diesels.

Imagine the fire risk with our 914s transatlantic shipping back in the '70s; each cars underside factory sprayed with cosmoline

As if a Porsche was not expensive enough right now!

Knowing Porsche, they will probably be marketing the salvageable vehicles as "Commemorative Disaster Editions".

Thurman

Glad the crew got off safe, what a mess for the env.

100% agree. Almost certainly a battery fire

a house burned down in south australia a couple of days ago.
source - tesla wall battery in garage hooked up to photo voltaic roof panels.

How often does a car cargo ship sink? This is the second one for Porsche in 3 three years.

Is this one of them supply chain things?

one a few years ago was a toy ship. small specialist cargo vessel.

this one, looking at the pics will be a big fugen fire, its a serious roll on roll off car ship.

i see them down at the docks here when i take a spin on my favourite "race track".
(you would have to have good sea legs to work on one, the top of these things is way up in the air - ) i've seen them sail past the our navy chopper carriers and they make the navy ships look like rubber ducky in the bath tub.



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The great news is they got the crew off the vessel, and there are (ahem) more pressing matters just now.

Still stinks for everyone involved, on both ends of that route.

Sure is….. Now for big Insurance who’s too big to fail can bail out the ship owner and Volkswagen group..
Just like The insurance groups settled for Remington. Never went to court never was questioned. The insurance companies decided the outcome of a trial.
Matt

Look at the water line on the ship. I think that ship is empty. Look at any large ship and you will see a water line for safety. Insurance fraud?
Matt

Companies are privately chartering ships to bypass the current backlog through the normal shipping process. It might have been a direct, less than full shipment.

Good eye Matt. The headline stating it was full of thousands of vehicles just doesn't add up, unless they were Matchbox or Hot Wheels vehicles.

Dan

That could be a stock picture. Glad the crew is off. I would assume the smoke would be a lot darker.

i wouldn't conclude that yet.
ro ro ships ride high and use ballast to adjust for stability.
in the photos i have seen she appears to be listing giving the appearance it might be riding high.

they don't sail riding high because they are empty or half full ship.
they use ballast to set themselves up for the load and for stability to a pre set level.

if it is riding high that would point to a problem other than fire or being half empty.

she is built to carry 4000 cars - vw has said close to 4000 cars on board. its hard to know if news reports are accurate.

I'm curious about location? Ship might not be damaged enough to sink, then recovery becomes an even bigger problem.

Location is near the Azores off the coast of Portugal. They are planning on towing in back in. Imagine that cost.

The Azores are roughly one third of the distance between Portugal and Boston. Not very big islands and probably have no port equipped to handle such a disaster. The ship will have to be towed back to Europe if it's salvageable.

slightly OT but related.

did some consultancy work on an apartment building here before covid hit.
a car stacker in the basement was being proposed to compact parking efficiently.
they are becoming more common in bigger buildings on tight sites.

i brought up potential lithium battery fires.
shoulders got shrugged.
fire engineers said impossible to stop.
just close the fire doors and turn the drenchers on.
conventional fire suppressing does not work.

when its out go in and clean up the aftermath.

be a very expensive job going into a car stacker basement and cutting everything out and pulling it out in pieces. access not exactly easy for cranes etc.

ship would be a nightmare. depending on how hot the fire had been.

my advice to owners of even conventional homes would be think twice about a wall battery pack inside a building. never put one in your house. think carefully even about an outbuilding or shed if you keep anything else in there you value. seperate battery shelter is way to go if possible or in fire proof enclosure. the batteries burn hot though.

and if i owned an EV and probably will have to one day, it parks in the driveway.

EDIT
not that i am jumping to conclusions on this ship fire........but its the second big one now.

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aftermath.
won't be anything salvaged off this baby.
not even the ship?

captain has reported the fire got out of control due to batteries exploding in one car after another. source of fire is unknown.

Those burned out sides, yeah, that was ship steel.

Regarding the earlier discussion about the ship not being full because of how high in the water it sits, I can attest that it was likely full. I’ve boated behind one of those Wallenius ships as it cruised down the Chesapeake Bay and it was mind boggling how huge they are. From the rear I could see the decks of cars and I couldn’t even begin to estimate the number.

It reminds me just how much the elitist want every gas car gone. So you can have EV fires in your house. I know they never think that far ahead, or do they? Build back better sound familiar?
Matt

Hydrogen fuel cells produce electricity by combining hydrogen and oxygen atoms from water. The hydrogen reacts with oxygen across an electrochemical cell similar to that of a battery to produce electricity, water, and small amounts of heat. If Hollywood thought a head just a bit, they'd realize that poison heavy metal fires are not the way of the future. If they put some of that money towards a system that gives you energy, and the by-product is more fuel, that just might work. But that makes way too much sense so sorry I mentioned it.

Anyone want to guess what country owns more than 50% of the world’s lithium production?

I know this one...Lithuania!

You’re such a troll!!!!

Easy, China, followed by Tesla!

Hydrogen fuel cells produce electricity by combining hydrogen and oxygen atoms from water. The hydrogen reacts with oxygen across an electrochemical cell similar to that of a battery to produce electricity, water, and small amounts of heat. If Hollywood thought a head just a bit, they'd realize that poison heavy metal fires are not the way of the future. If they put some of that money towards a system that gives you energy, and the by-product is more fuel, that just might work. But that makes way too much sense so sorry I mentioned it.
[/quote]

Anyone want to guess what country owns more than 50% of the world’s lithium production?


I think the correct answer to this question is nobody, but Australia is damn close, followed by Chile.....of course that's not the most fun answer.

thats one way to do it. the other way is to burn the hydrogen in a combustion engine.
they don't produce CO and CO2 but they do produce NOx emissions - mostly its H2O comes out the tailpipe but oxygen etc in the combustion chamber leads to the nitrogen bits (photochemical smog), you run the engine under constant load and revs as a generator to power an electrical motor. rotary engines are ideal for this as all their particular problems with emissions v fuel economy are solved by running at steady revs and load. its basically a hybrid that does not produced CO2 (the bug bear greenhouse gas). this set up may be ideally suited to heavy trucks and long distance haulage.
ie australia (or the USA?). a cat will take care of the NOx.

but..........hydrogen is way more explosive than gasoline or lithium batteries.
tank is a high pressure vessel. fuel lines are high pressure hard lines.
think 914 fuel lines by a factor of 1000. i don't think you can smell hydrogen.
so won't get much of a warning of a leak.

truth is nothing is particularly clean........or green. it seems.

anyway - they are going to have to work out how to safely transport electric cars in bulk.
and the light bulb will be coming on about safety in parking garages - thats next.
i've seen that one coming for a while. ceiling drenchers work on fuel cars but not electric cars.

[quote name='Craigers17' date='Feb 19 2022, 05:21 PM' post='2982883']
Hydrogen fuel cells produce electricity by combining hydrogen and oxygen atoms from water. The hydrogen reacts with oxygen across an electrochemical cell similar to that of a battery to produce electricity, water, and small amounts of heat. If Hollywood thought a head just a bit, they'd realize that poison heavy metal fires are not the way of the future. If they put some of that money towards a system that gives you energy, and the by-product is more fuel, that just might work. But that makes way too much sense so sorry I mentioned it.
[/quote]

Anyone want to guess what country owns more than 50% of the world’s lithium production?


I think the correct answer to this question is nobody, but Australia is damn close, followed by Chile.....of course that's not the most fun answer.
[/quote]
If you’re talking about where lithium mines are located, then that could be correct. But, if you’re talking about what nation has a controlling interest in the companies doing the mining, then your statement is inaccurate. I wrote a paper on this topic for a class about national security concerns recently and I assure you, there is a very dirty secret in this whole EV business that no one is talking about.

[quote name='Craigers17' date='Feb 19 2022, 04:21 PM' post='2982883']
Hydrogen fuel cells produce electricity by combining hydrogen and oxygen atoms from water. The hydrogen reacts with oxygen across an electrochemical cell similar to that of a battery to produce electricity, water, and small amounts of heat. If Hollywood thought a head just a bit, they'd realize that poison heavy metal fires are not the way of the future. If they put some of that money towards a system that gives you energy, and the by-product is more fuel, that just might work. But that makes way too much sense so sorry I mentioned it.
[/quote]

Anyone want to guess what country owns more than 50% of the world’s lithium production?


I think the correct answer to this question is nobody, but Australia is damn close, followed by Chile.....of course that's not the most fun answer.
[/quote]

yes there is some lithium here.
we got the lot when it comes to poisons, rare metals, vicious snakes - --- and the sharks are back in force.
we probably even have naturally occuring plutonium but haven't found it yet?

i think most of it is in africa.
and which country is currently offering huge aid packages and economic support to buy influence there? and its not the USA.
but i don't think they can use the tibet or taiwan argument to lay claim to the territory like it was a new hong kong.

A lot of lithium in CA but still years away. Likewise did a lot of business studies in hydrogen in the early 90s. Not much has changed - energy intensive, explosive, poor “mileage”. Best use is to hydrogenate heavy fuels into lighter fuels.

[quote name='Van B' date='Feb 19 2022, 04:49 PM' post='2982888']
[quote name='Craigers17' date='Feb 19 2022, 05:21 PM' post='2982883']
Hydrogen fuel cells produce electricity by combining hydrogen and oxygen atoms from water. The hydrogen reacts with oxygen across an electrochemical cell similar to that of a battery to produce electricity, water, and small amounts of heat. If Hollywood thought a head just a bit, they'd realize that poison heavy metal fires are not the way of the future. If they put some of that money towards a system that gives you energy, and the by-product is more fuel, that just might work. But that makes way too much sense so sorry I mentioned it.
[/quote]

Anyone want to guess what country owns more than 50% of the world’s lithium production?


I think the correct answer to this question is nobody, but Australia is damn close, followed by Chile.....of course that's not the most fun answer.
[/quote]
If you’re talking about where lithium mines are located, then that could be correct. But, if you’re talking about what nation has a controlling interest in the companies doing the mining, then your statement is inaccurate. I wrote a paper on this topic for a class about national security concerns recently and I assure you, there is a very dirty secret in this whole EV business that no one is talking about.
[/quote]

yes - chinese ownership of australian operating companies is a warm topic here.
it should be a hot topic.
and its not just rare metals and minerals.
we have a potential food security issue i believe.

its going to be an interesting decade or two ahead of us.
i might just live long enough to see the reconstruction of the iron and bamboo curtains?
perhaps in a slightly different form. but.......

yes its not exactly easy to make or store hydrogen.
you need electricity to do it. kind of a vicious circle.
the talk here is of solar powered hydrogen plants.
who knows.
but its use will be with strict limitations and its not a universal solution.

going to be hard to replace texas tea.

I've got a new Porsche coming right now on a different RORO transport ship....thank God. Ha
These boats sit very high out of the water.

They carry between 4000 and up to 8000 cars.
This boat had 1000 Porsches on it.
Estimating $150k/ Porsche (conservative estimate), that's $150 million in just Porsches.
Matt Farah from YouTube fame had his new Porsche on board.

What a mess.

You need to be careful here... You are drifting into political waters.

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Can I keep my gas powered vehicles? seems like an easy answer

At the current rate of consumption how many more years do we have with the known supplies?

What I would really like to see are electrical powered vehicles that rely on capacitors and fossil fuel powered generators.
A discharged capacitor poses no risk, and an engine attached to a generator can be tuned for absolute maximum efficiency since it only needs to run at one RPM.
This is the way.

you might get your wish.
after all the hoo hah about going pure electric, volvo has conceded it takes 100,00km of mileage to achieve the carbon offset emission from manufacture alone over a fuel car manufacture. not sure where those emissions might be produced. copper? or perhaps its the batteries. or maybe extensive use of lightweight metals? there are some issues that have not been addressed. whether anyone likes it or not CO2 is one big accounting exercise so it has to be taken into account.

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/01/21/unpack...u-think-claims/

as to fuel reserves. there is still a lot. but CO2 treaties will limit drawing on and exploiting untapped fields. bio fuels may fill the niche as they offer an offset while you are growing the fuel base stock.

i can't see myself buying a pure electric car in whats left of my life. simply because the numbers don't add up in CO2 terms. (and i am not a luddite, energy efficiency in buildings and clean energy is my work and i do it every day). i keep my mouth buttoned shut at dinner parties because for a certain class of australians electric cars are now a moral choice (but not a scientific one). what i probably will buy if i buy another car will be a hybrid. currently in australia hybrid car sales have gone through the roof.
at least a lot of australians are not making moral choices but numbers driven choices.
oddly they are doing better at CO2 reduction than the purists who want the tesla in the drive ( its become a kind of a "goodness" badge to have a T).

Tell ‘em that if they want goodness, they should try Jesus, not Elon.

This is the approach my son is thinking makes the most sense. He's been researching the use in trains and some ships and has been telling me for half a year this should be the future of transportation. Think his ultimate would be a turbine powered electric. We both agree that batteries are not smart from an ecological perspective nor fiscally.

Dan

Turbines are definitely an obvious choice, but even rotary engines can be made to run very efficiently under a constant load.
One real big benefit of turbines is that you don’t need all the extra systems for liquid cooling.
I’ve heard rumors that Dodge will be putting a generator in the next Ram trucks…. But it will still be a battery electric. The only company to use capacitors vs batteries has been Lamborghini.
It’s a great point about the GE diesel electric trains. GE cornered the market with that design as it was the only train engine to meet the updated emissions and efficiency standards.

and they (turbines) run on anything van - but you'd know that with your background.
old deep fryer oil from mcdonalds or the fish and chip shop.
kerosine. not particularly fussy with what they burn.

i wouldn't mind a turbine electric car just to get the abrams tank sound in the driveway.

I really don't know if this movement will allow us to keep our IC cars. Pushing auto makers into electric vehicles, I get the feeling that the petrochemical companies will be getting cheap product to make more plastic crap for our homes, sooner than later.

1981- Rush

My uncle has a country place
No one knows about
He says it used to be a farm
Before the "Motor Law"
And on Sundays I elude the eyes
And hop the turbine freight
To far outside the wire
Where my white-haired uncle waits

Jump to the ground
As the turbo slows to cross the borderline
Run like the wind
As excitement shivers up and down my spine
Down in his barn
My uncle preserved for me an old machine
For 50 odd years
To keep it as new has been his dearest dream

I strip away the old debris
That hides a shining car
A brilliant red Barchetta
From a better vanished time
We fire up the willing engine
Responding with a roar
Tires spitting gravel
I commit my weekly crime

How about an aircraft APU? This one is small enough to fit in a 914 engine compartment.

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"Measuring 12 inches by 13 inches by 24 inches, the MPU weighs 75 pounds and is rated at 10kW and 400 amps."

Tie that to a capacitor bank, and a Tesla Model S motor. The capacitor bank holds the APU output and releases it when needed for acceleration. Add regenerative braking and you increase the fuel efficiency. At home, keep it plugged in to keep the capacitors charged up.

Or better yet, use the Protean wheel motors to make it all wheel drive, and make more room for the capacitor bank.

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Yes, I know it increases unsprung weight. But do the benefits outweigh (pun intended) the extra unsprung weight?


Any thoughts?

Clay

Can't believe this question is still asked even if rhetorically. Peak oil was supposed to have occurred in 1970s. Whenever oil resources do finally become constrained, there will be other technological solutions to either get at oil that is not feasible to get today, or that alternatives like biofuels, Hybrids, or even EV's will make sense. We are not there yet.