Hi -

The Bursch exhaust on my 1971 1.7L is beyond repair at this point. I unbolted it and need to purchase a new unit. I am pretty open on replacements, meaning I don't have to replace it with another Bursch (of course would like to keep the price manageable but that is another topic...). With that said, minus the Bursch, the car is bone stock and so I would need a new system, the gaskets and the associated bolts as they are not in good shape (I am unsure of the bold size, any help there appreciated too). I did the measurements from a picture I found on the site and I definitely have the dimensions for the 1.7 L HX.

I read in another thread that the tailpipe on a vendor's unit was not compatible with the stock rear valence, so I guess I need to avoid that unit (Dansk?).

I know that 914rubber has a stainless steel system too - anyone have any experience wit that one? Any advice appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Best,
Reg

If the piping is still ok, simply replace the muffler with a like sized unit. Salvage the whole exit pipe. Use 2 rectangular flanges, weld on pipe, for the piping to muffler pipe piece rather than a solid weld. 1.7/1.8 HE flanges are slightly dif than the 2.0 versions as are the gaskets.

I went with a Dansk rig that I think I purchased from AA. It was plug & play. The tailpipe was included.

the dansk should go straight in the earlier 914.
its the later design single piece muffler without the smaller hot dog outlet pipe and the design superseded the earlier type and was intended as the replacement part from 74 on.

so the tailpipe should exit the hole in the earlier valence as far as i can work out.
maybe others know better, but the single piece muffler was the intended replacement part for all 1.7 914s after the 1.8 came out in 74.

i've got a 74 and sit in far off australia. even getting a dansk here is a pain in the arse by the time freight and customs and aus $ conversion happens. which forced me to make an interesting discovery.

the 914 muffler is just the kombi (bus) / 412 muffler upside down. all VW did was weld the exhaust inlet pipe flanges on upside down compared to a bus/412 muffler.

its interesting if you look around the VW parts retailers. the bus muffler by dansk goes for about half the $ of the 914 one. and as far as i can tell its the same thing.
if you are handy with a grinder and a welder you can buy the bus one and do a bit of cut and shut on the inlet flanges and you are in business. buy the tailpipe section on its own, its available as a separate part.

i don't have a dansk, i managed to find a stainless steel bus muffler here in aus 20 years ago and have modified it as above. should outlast me.


EDIT.
i can see how a dansk would screw up after looking up a early 4 with the deep rear valence. no way would it fit. 73/74 much further to left and edge of car on tailpipe.
interesting, if porsche thought the later muffler superseded they would have had to be fitting a later rear valence as well?

it might be pretty hard to find one of those early mufflers with the extra hot dog tail pipe section that turns out before the left hand end of main muffler - if you have an early valence. looks like that is what the tail pipe would have to do. which is kind of a geometric impossibility with later dansk type full width muffler and where inlet pipes from engine land. that early valence outlet is inboard of end of muffler!

i'm pretty sure its an early VW 411 muffler. maybe an NOS is a possibility if you searched around?

or get the dansk and get a later valence to go with it.

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the dansk factory duplicate looks good fits well and gives you stock performance, better off the line that ANY aftermarket variety, (not that they exist these days)

Busdepot sells an Ernst muffler that is what the Dansk is trying to be. Basically it is an OEM 1.8 muffler. Side exit. The original 1.7 muffler was a Leistritz center exit that is a little smaller, but NLA.

Dansk and Walker (czechoslovakia), the feel/production quality pales compared to the real-deal Ernst.

This is a really nice piece imo
https://www.busdepot.com/071251053e

yes and no.

a bus muffler is different.
but its only in the way the inlet flange plates are oriented.

here is the original factory 914 muffler that was once on my car.
its a 74 1.8

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here is bus (or late 412) single piece german factory muffler.

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notice how the VW application has the inlet flange plates welded at 180 degree rotation to a 914.

they used the same basic muffler but that was the difference.
this allowed the 914 to retain its lhs tailpipe location in these later single piece mufflers.
the bus and the type 4 exited on the rhs.

all the crazy dents and creases in the muffler are because it tucked up under the fan housing and allowed for the oil dipstick filler tube because they faced up in the bus.

they end up facing down in the 914 and make no sense because its not tucked up under a fan housing.

anyway you are right about one thing.
that ernst muffler is a much better buy.
and it will bolt straight on but you will end up with a rhs tailpipe and the muffler will end up closer to the heat shield under the trunk.
which is ok. a way around that is modify the valence and just go with that.

or you can do what i did which was modify the bus muffler and cut the inlet flanges off
and reweld them back on 180 degree rotated.

either way, the dansk bus muffler or the ernst bus muffler is a way better buy than the dansk 914 muffler because either dansk or the retailers are having 914 owners on.
its the same muffler apart from the flange orientation and they generally retail for double. thats bs - out and out bs on dansk's part.

if you are handy with a grinder and a welder grab the bus muffler.
make your own tailpipe or buy the dansk 914 tailpipe and use that.

i know because i have done it.
i have a modified bus muffler on my car.
a high quality stainless steel one i got hold of 20 years ago.
i'm not sure if it was made by an australian VW parts supplier or if it came from germany, but its a very high quality bus muffler i got hold of and modified.

here are some photos of back when i modded the bus muffler.
about 4 years ago.

i did run it unmodified for a while before that with a modded tailpipe out the rhs just for convenience when i first had to change the muffler. (that was when the penny dropped about the rotated flanges. when we first looked at the muffler both my mechanic and i thought, aha its just a bus muffler. but then after getting hold of one and going to tfit it we both said, oh no its not quite a bus muffler. )then i took it off and did it properly a bit later on.

the photos have reminded me we did a bit of reinforcing to kind of duplicate how the 914 mufflers have reinforcing plates from the flange back to the muffler body.
we did "sturdy" plates but given the muffler pretty much hangs of those flanges even though the flanges are suspended from the hanger off the gearbox i figured i'd make sure it did not vibrate so much it would crack the flange welds down the track.

it all works really well except the exhaust does sound very "tinny" until it warms up.
i put that down to the SS heat exchangers in addition to this SS muffler.
doesn't have that deeper tone that the mild steel exhaust systems have.

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If the Dansk muffler outlet isn't right for your rear valance, AA sells an outlet with a tighter bend on their site and ebay.

I see what you're saying. I can definitely see how the first pic you posted that wouldn't work on a bus since the indents for the engine tin by the fan and the dipstick indent are below instead of above.

But are you sure the bus muffler won't bolt up and work on a 914?

I know the 1.7L muffler was the same muffler for both - almost sure anyway.

The rusty one here came off my 72 914 which has a snowplow valence. Both of these are the same. The tailpipe lined up with the hole.
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Here is the nos muffler above on the engine of my 72 bus.


I'm thinking maybe the tailpipe of the side exit 1.8 bus muffler can't be made to work with the 914 valence? I know it's triangular/3 bolt, and could go 3 ways(?) I've run the Ernst before but I don't have one currently to check..

Also, looking at the Dansk "914" muffler at AA, the flanges look the same as the "bus" muffler you posted above. The longer/2 bolt/bottom side of the flange is opposite of the indents.

http://www.autoatlanta.com/Porsche-914-Dan...ffler-srch.html

@nathanxnathan .

yes the bus muffler will bolt straight up.
take a close read of my post.
but the result will be a right hand side exit.

thats how it exits on the bus. and on the 412. after they went to the single piece muffler in either 73 or 74. definitely 74 but could have also been earlier in 73. that single piece muffler is a different ball game to the earlier style with the hot dog tailpipe you have posted. (note also your rusty 914 muffler does a real tight turn out before the left hand end of muffler to make the hole in the early valence).

it will do your head in in a dyslexic way but you will see that i am correct about the later single part mufflers if you look very closely at my photos. i should know i have held both items in my hot little hands and worked it out.

it is actually fine and if you did not care about originality - the smart move would be to make a modded valence with a right hand side dent and forever after be able to bolt a bus muffler straight up.

your photo is also correct. the earlier 411 muffler that the early 914s had is pretty much identical. the difference is that hot dog section is shorter on the 914s and turns out sooner. 411s seemed to have two different tail pipes - one that shot out more or less straight towards outside of car on left hand side and one that turned out under the back over towards left. i think one sort went of variants because they had a tailgate. this might have been the extreme left side exit. and the other type went on the fastbacks and sedans. at that time 914s, 411s all had left hand exit tail pipes. then VW went to right hand side exit on their 412s and buses. but the 914 stayed left hand side.

the key to understanding this is remembering that the flanges at the end of the heat exchangers on all the cars, 914s, 411/412s and buses is all in the same orientation.
2 bolts down. i bolt up tapering upwards. thats why the late 914 muffler had to be made with the flanges 180 degrees to the others, so it could still do the lhs exit.

i really like your suggestion of picking up an ernst muffler. its a high quality item.
if it were me and i lived in the states its what i would do. then i would either mod my 914 valence for a right hand tailpipe or if i was super fussy mod the muffler like i did.

------

if i was the OP and i didn't have any metal/welding skills and i had a early 914 that still had the snowplow valence on it i would buy the dansk and bite the bullet. the price difference is tolerable in the USA. and buy a late valence and just go with the whole late set up. its all a straight bolt on job. put the original valence away in a cupboard.

or as @vintagethunder suggests maybe there is a tight turn tailpipe that will get out through the earlier valence. it would want to be tight. i already have what i think is a relatively tight turn tailpipe to make it out on the 74 valence. but if that tailpipe is out there that could make the dansk work and you could keep the early valence.

@nathanxnathan

here are the two dansk ads side by side.
you can see it all clear as a bell.
note where the tailpipe outlet is in both mufflers then look at the flange plates.

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the ernst will be the same as the dansk VW one.

@wonkipop

Ah yeah, I see what you mean. The side exit mufflers come out the right side. You actually have to modify the 72 bus right side rear bumper bracket to clearance for the tail pipe. In 73 they switched the tow hook to the left side.

Still, unless the Dansk muffler has the picture wrong, the outlet is coming out the right side, and it is essentially a bus muffler.



Here's a pic of the original 914 1.7 L center exit tailpipe (rusty one) vs the longer (411?) tailpipe.
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The proper early type 4 bus tailpipe is actually like this, since I'm all showing off my early tailpipe collection.
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Now I'm super confused lol. I'm getting dyslexia with all these upside down muffler pics. They all look to exit on the right to me?!

@wonkipop Ok, I'm seeing it now. 2 bolts on the bottom, exit left for the 914 one. Ok, that took me a minute sorry.

it f%^ks with your head when you are looking at photos.
but when you are looking at the real thing its easy to understand.

VW and the parts bin mentality!!!!
typically german. its how they got through world war 2.
"lets just take this bit of a BF109 fighter and stick it in a tiger tank upside down and it should work. ja!"

@nathanxnathan - you can kind of see what must have been going on between the giant bureaucracy of VW versus porsche in 1973/74.

if they had only been pumping out 1.7/1.8 914s they would have just flipped to a rhs exhaust like the rest of the VWs and done a mirror valence update panel.

but no, porsche had gone off and designed the 2.0L with its "special" almost 914/6 muffler and a left hand side tailpipe.

some accountant at VW probably said - no, not making two valence panels. and then went looking for someone to put in front of the firing squad.

so some engineer or production manager at karmann probably worked out all they had to do was get ernst or whoever was making the mufflers to do a little tweak for the 914 inventory at no extra cost under threat of being pistol whipped.

the bean counter would have calmed down.

half a century later there is an opening for dansk to milk the market because the 914 muffler is so special. right?

......and you can't quite run over and grab that VW part from bus depot or whoever at half the cost like you can with the interior door handles and the cigarette lighter etc.

Dear All -

thanks for all the posts; this has been quite an education for me. Perhaps I will search for a later rear valence and that will give me more flexibility in the future. Thanks again, I truly appreciate everyone on this site.

Best,

Reg

@nathanxnathan

an epilogue for you.
found this 914world thread on a search.
(are you in an earlier avatar on this old thread as nathansnathon?)

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=156190


there is always something more to learn when it comes to 914s.
the OP on the thread i linked had a muffler that came off a 4 that looks not quite like anything i have seen. if i am not mistaken its a proper left hand exit exhaust and it must have been for a 412 since it orients correctly to accomodate the fan housing and dipstick where it would tuck up under the engine on a 412.

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i took a look at 412 brochures.
i knew there was something strange and inconsistent about 412 exhausts.
sure enough.
sedans (and probably fastbacks) had a lhs exit.
variants had a rhs exit. (twin pipe arrangement because gas heater exhaust is positioned beside engine exhaust).

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i reckon there were lhs exhausts fitted to 914s originally - probably in 73/74, but definitely 74 that were likely 412 sedan exhausts? and likely somewhere along the way VW stopped making this part or discontinued it and simply made the spare part a modified bus exhaust? or different OE suppliers at the time had different ways of rationalising assembly of variations? there were several suppliers of OE VW exhaust systems.

here is another photo of mine showing how the exhaust that came off mine (the rusty one on the floor) is exactly like the bus one i modified. what i don't know is whether my car came from the factory with this exhaust as i picked up the car in 1989. it could have already been a replacement muffler by that point in time.
and what i can see is the pictures of dansk 914 exhausts form adverts when i look closely do seem to match the 412 sedan version pictured in thread i found. ie when fitted the dents in them would be oriented up.

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pretty funny stuff.
so what i am saying?
there definitely must have been two different kinds of ways you could get the 914 muffler back in the 70s and 80s as a spare part.
one way would have been the unit that dansk appear to be making which is actually a LHS side tailpipe 412 sedan muffler. could also be fitted to 914.
the other type would be a bus or 412 variant muffler with the inlet flanges inverted 180 deg which is the rusty old unit i pulled off my 914 and had been on it since at least 1989 but may not have been a factory fitted muffler but a spare part muffler.

i reckon it would depend on who made the mufflers as to how these things got rationalised. the unit i pulled of my car was a LANGE.

@wonkipop Yeah nathansnathan was registered through an email address at my old domain, and when I switched the url a few years ago, I lost access. I emailed sirandy about it, trying to get access, but never got a response. Funny I forgot about that thread entirely..

There really are quite a lot of different muffler options historically at least. It does seem weird that they'd have just switched the orientation of the mounting flanges and put the indents at the bottom but maybe so.

I was looking at the JP group Dansk site. It's pretty impressive what they offer.
Here's I think the one AA offers
https://www.jpgroupclassic.com/product/?id=...&cmodel=914

The one in the thread you link looks to be the same muffler, but he has a different tailpipe that isn't working.

This one, The "sport" is hard to find in stock except at european sites
https://www.jpgroupclassic.com/product/?id=...&cmodel=914

Here's an option that looks really cool, gotta get it fromn Europe also, it's stainless steel though
https://www.typ4shop.de/Abgasanlagen/Auspuf...#horizontalTab2

yeah i shouldn't think too hard about this stuff.

one of the interesting things is that the lhs single muffler with dents on top, probably originally for 412 would mount up slightly higher when you consider the geometry.
probably meaning that none of the muffler is visible below the shorter later valence.

with mine the bottom bit of the muffler is visible. its to do with the geometry of the inlets. if you look at photos you can see this.

its kind of interesting. that muffler that was on mine was obviously some kind of genuine part and its an alternative to the other type.

anyway. VW? what can you say.

i guess my only point is if as you say you can find a high quality OEM german made muffler lying around you can do as i suggest which would mimmick at least one of the variants that was around in the late 70s/early 80s and get a pretty good muffler set up on your car that might be better than a dansk.

i did read that these big single chamber mufflers that came in 73/74 offer better flow than the smaller earlier mufflers that had the seperate hot dog tail pipe. probably made the engines run just that slight bit cooler. might have even been offsets to the emissions laws that were retarding ignition at idle and cruise that do make the engine run hotter, so it might have helped with that. there had to be a reason they altered the exhausts, and being germans it would be a rational engineering reason.

@nathanxnathan

i pulled the old muffler down and took a good look at it.
its definitely a replacement not original from factory.
has a 1983 date stamp on it.

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i thought it had a LANGE stamp on it somewhere but must be my imagination.
def not an ERNST or a LEISTRITZ because they did not weld the little reinforcement tabs on from the inlet flanges back to the body of the muffler as far as i know. but its german.

it is exactly the same as this one that was on a 74 1.8 that was sold on BAT a few months back that was a pretty original car.

you got to wonder what these cars might have had on them original from factory. i'm going for the 412 left hand side exit pipe like the unique one that was posted on a thread a few years back. but then they became unobtainable ? and the inverted bus muffler became the replacement part?

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@potomacmidget
while i was snooping around i found this early car on BAT fitted with later muffler as per 74 and its pretty clear its got a unique tailpipe to let it get out the early valence.
must bend back slightly after it exits muffler and then bend out through the valence to get through the original tailpipe hole.
either its a custom fab tailpipe or you can / or could get them.

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“while i was snooping around i found this early car on BAT fitted with later muffler as per 74 and its pretty clear its got a unique tailpipe to let it get out the early valence.
must bend back slightly after it exits muffler and then bend out through the valence to get through the original tailpipe hole.
either its a custom fab tailpipe or you can / or could get them.“

Here’s mine that’s been sitting in storage for awhile. I compared it to the Dansk NOS that’s installed on my 72, when lined up the exit is further outboard.
Not sure what the part number translates to. I acquired this exhaust around the year 2000 came with a 2 L motor.

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and for the early cars with the long valance with hole, there was a shorty factory tail pipe made to use the later mufflerClick to view attachment

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I’ve never seen one, before. The tip I have is for a “arched” valance.

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For my 74 I got the Dansk muffler.

It sounds nice. On my motor its actually tame, you really hear more the carbs, which I like.
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@potomacmidget

latest car sold on BAT is a 72 with early valence.
late style 74 muffler, looks new and appears to be dansk.
has the tight side pipe. you must be able to get those pipes somewhere.

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-porsche-914-68/

@CCE . nice muffler. but its a 2.0. different kettle of fish.
probably sounds good as well. i think porsche designed that muffler for the 2.0 - similar to a 911 muffler. we got the VW mufflers on our smaller engined cars.
thats either a good thing or a bad thing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VySYOz6L9ZU



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2JRIZdLB1A

thanks mate.
i can confirm FYI in the case of our lowly 1.7/1.8s its a bad thing having the VW muffler thanks to your vid. where you cruising? mexico.

Yes Mexico, we live here.