I have found small oil coolers with a fan for $100, but the electric pumps are expensive. My plan is to either find a cheap electric pump, or try and use the ring gear as a pump. The tricky part about the second option is it's hard to test. Can a cheap fuel pump be used to pump gear oil?
The intent here is to cool the oil and send it to the upper bearings so my 901 lasts behind a V8.
Full Version: 901 transmission cooler
| QUOTE (bondo @ Aug 10 2005, 12:15 PM) |
| I have found small oil coolers with a fan for $100, but the electric pumps are expensive. My plan is to either find a cheap electric pump, or try and use the ring gear as a pump. The tricky part about the second option is it's hard to test. Can a cheap fuel pump be used to pump gear oil? The intent here is to cool the oil and send it to the upper bearings so my 901 lasts behind a V8. |
spraybar and cooler
yeah, I want to do that too.....
fuel isn't 85W90 viscosity, and it doesn't get 250F. the heat is what kills most pumps tried in this application. RacerPartsWholesale has a Mocal electric pump for this purpose for about $185,
trying to run the pump from the output side of the transmission means you're tapping "after-tax" power. 901's never had factory oil coolers, but 915's did - two kinds. early ones (RS/RSR) lived in the tailcone but i don't recall which shaft they were driven from. later ones are in the side cover and driven by an output flange.
this topic is covered in Anderson's 911 Handbook, BTW. they show a Tilton pump. i've heard that the Jabsco "water puppy" pump works, at least for a while.
maybe you could just use something like a power steering pump, driven by an accessory belt...
trying to run the pump from the output side of the transmission means you're tapping "after-tax" power. 901's never had factory oil coolers, but 915's did - two kinds. early ones (RS/RSR) lived in the tailcone but i don't recall which shaft they were driven from. later ones are in the side cover and driven by an output flange.
this topic is covered in Anderson's 911 Handbook, BTW. they show a Tilton pump. i've heard that the Jabsco "water puppy" pump works, at least for a while.
maybe you could just use something like a power steering pump, driven by an accessory belt...
I would only add that I don't think it is probably necessary. 
I know guys who have killed a 901 or two behind their V8, and I know several more who have 901's living quite nicely behind their V8's (including me). I think the important thing is that those who have killed their 901s did so with behavior that no trans cooler in the world would have affected, i.e. shock loading. Dump the clutch too often, break the trans. It's that simple. A cooler won't do a fuching thing to prevent that.
My trans is 4 years old, the PO admitted to me he dumped the clutch more often than he should have, and I do it once in a while, but I get on hard it often. I put 1500-2000 miles a month on the car in season, and the trans now has 20,000 miles on it. When Brad Meyeur opened my trans in January to do the gear flip/swap, it was all so clean and new inside, he only replaced parts that had to be switched to accomplish the swap. All other parts were perfect, and went right back in. In fact, if anything, I wish my 2nd gear synchro (now 1st gear in an 8) would wear a bit more so it would slide into gear at a stop a little easier.
Now, if you are gonna race it, that is a whole different ani-mule, in which case, neeevermind what I just said.
I know guys who have killed a 901 or two behind their V8, and I know several more who have 901's living quite nicely behind their V8's (including me). I think the important thing is that those who have killed their 901s did so with behavior that no trans cooler in the world would have affected, i.e. shock loading. Dump the clutch too often, break the trans. It's that simple. A cooler won't do a fuching thing to prevent that.
My trans is 4 years old, the PO admitted to me he dumped the clutch more often than he should have, and I do it once in a while, but I get on hard it often. I put 1500-2000 miles a month on the car in season, and the trans now has 20,000 miles on it. When Brad Meyeur opened my trans in January to do the gear flip/swap, it was all so clean and new inside, he only replaced parts that had to be switched to accomplish the swap. All other parts were perfect, and went right back in. In fact, if anything, I wish my 2nd gear synchro (now 1st gear in an 8) would wear a bit more so it would slide into gear at a stop a little easier.
Now, if you are gonna race it, that is a whole different ani-mule, in which case, neeevermind what I just said.
Just what you need on a V8 in a 914: another accessory with another belt. Perhaps the pump could be driven off the output shaft via a belt. Figure out how to attach a pulley to a CV and mount the pump in the space above the gearbox.
what about running it off the mainshaft, somewhere in the tail cone? (you arent using first gear....so maybe there?)
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Aug 10 2005, 02:02 PM) |
| what about running it off the mainshaft, somewhere in the tail cone? (you arent using first gear....so maybe there?) |
sorta like this??
the pump is from Speedway Engineering...it's basicly a pump very similar to a Type I or IV oil pump.
you could always add a belt drive to the flange of the transmission and have it run off the side instead.
you could always add a belt drive to the flange of the transmission and have it run off the side instead.
| QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 10 2005, 04:58 PM) |
| Just what you need on a V8 in a 914: another accessory with another belt. |
did i say anything about -another- belt?
the V8 in question (any of 'em...) probably had power steering pumps in their original application.
i've seen engines drive 3 or 4 accessories off the same belt - and some that drive *everything* with one double-sided belt.
hey - if the belt's gonna break, it might as well take out *everything* so there is no doubt.
and i donno what it is, but i have yet to have to replace only the outer belt of any multi-pulley engine i've done - it's always the innermost so i get to R&R all the belts anyway...
If you compare the cost of the pump, lines, fittings, cooler and the time and effort to install it against the cost of a failed transmission on a race car, then it is cheap. My setup was from Jim Patrick in Phoenix, about the normal cost for all the pieces with the advantage that everything was included that was needed in his kit. You do have to fabricate the suction fitting that goes where the drain plug goes and the spray connections into the case which means it has to be opened, drilled and tapped. If you are concerned about high temps, get Jim's VDO temp gauge adapter that goes in where the speedo drive is on the tranny and see what you are running for temps. It will probably shock you how high it gets. One BIIIIG advantage with the pump is now all I do to drain the trans is to unhook the oulet line and turn on the pump and filling the trans is just as easy, unhook the suction!
I am going to use a Tilton pump with internal fan and a Fluidyne oil cooler. The rear trunk will need to be vented. We have used this system in the past with favorable results.
Crimney. I hope that's a twin-plug setup you have there, or are you running a W12?
This is for a daily driver. My engine exceeds the reccomended limit of 300 ft-lbs (it does 325 stock and it may do more without cats). I realize that shock loading will kill it either way, but I've heard of 3rd gear failures from "I don't do burnouts" drivers. I'm actually not that convinced that burnouts kill 901s, as long as you're not on the gas when it hooks up. I want this trans to last a looong time. I figure a cooler will give the best "no bang" for the buck.
The ring gear idea is to use the "point the vent the wrong way and the trans empties itself" idea, but optimized. I have doubts that it would be enough to pump through a cooler though. I don't want to do belt drive, my belt system is already designed and built.
Has anyone with a trans cooler killed a 901? What did it take?
The ring gear idea is to use the "point the vent the wrong way and the trans empties itself" idea, but optimized. I have doubts that it would be enough to pump through a cooler though. I don't want to do belt drive, my belt system is already designed and built.
Has anyone with a trans cooler killed a 901? What did it take?
That's just frigging awesome. 
But uh hey man you got like 8 too many plug wires
You need to give thatcar to me so I can add some dirt chip the paint and add some rust.
But uh hey man you got like 8 too many plug wires You need to give thatcar to me so I can add some dirt chip the paint and add some rust.
| QUOTE (xitspd @ Aug 10 2005, 08:46 PM) |
| I am going to use a Tilton pump with internal fan and a Fluidyne oil cooler. The rear trunk will need to be vented. We have used this system in the past with favorable results. |
HAH! You are losing alot of trunk space!
I must stop these people.... they are way ahead of me.....
| QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 10 2005, 08:58 PM) |
| or are you running a W12? |
-cough-
| QUOTE (Joe Ricard @ Aug 11 2005, 03:02 AM) |
| That's just frigging awesome. But uh hey man you got like 8 too many plug wires You need to give thatcar to me so I can add some dirt chip the paint and add some rust. |
It will get dirty and rusty soon enough, but thanks for the offer!
| QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 11 2005, 04:05 AM) | ||
HAH! You are losing alot of trunk space! I must stop these people.... they are way ahead of me..... |
Noted!
| QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 10 2005, 12:58 PM) |
| Just what you need on a V8 in a 914: another accessory with another belt. Perhaps the pump could be driven off the output shaft via a belt. Figure out how to attach a pulley to a CV and mount the pump in the space above the gearbox. |
Bingo!
I have done this a couple of times, and it can be done for very cheap too. VW engine pulley machined to bolt to CV on trands output flange side. A power steering pump that does not have an intergral reservoir like Ford Explorer V6, BMW 3 series, and many others. The BMW version pumps the same volume as the Tilton electric diff/trans oil pump. Drive the pump via V belt off VW pulley through an oil cooler and back....you can spray right on the ring gear if you wish. The oil cooler will be the most expensive part. You can put a lighter spring in the oil pump bypass to keep the pressure down, but that never seems to be an issue since it's basically an open system. You can choose nicer and more expensive components if you wish, or you can go the in-expensive route; works either way. I showed Terry Stewart how to do this on his 383 V8/930 trans steup. BTW, mount the pump at trans fluid level, and not above.
Andy
| QUOTE |
| A power steering pump that does not have an intergral reservoir like Ford Explorer V6, BMW 3 series, and many othe |
I had thought about power steering pump, but what about the viscosity of the transmission fluid being so much higher than that of the power steering fluid?
You also have to make sure the seals are compatible, but I like the idea
| QUOTE (andys @ Aug 11 2005, 08:43 AM) | ||
Bingo! I have done this a couple of times, and it can be done for very cheap too. VW engine pulley machined to bolt to CV on trands output flange side. A power steering pump that does not have an intergral reservoir like Ford Explorer V6, BMW 3 series, and many others. The BMW version pumps the same volume as the Tilton electric diff/trans oil pump. Drive the pump via V belt off VW pulley through an oil cooler and back....you can spray right on the ring gear if you wish. The oil cooler will be the most expensive part. You can put a lighter spring in the oil pump bypass to keep the pressure down, but that never seems to be an issue since it's basically an open system. You can choose nicer and more expensive components if you wish, or you can go the in-expensive route; works either way. I showed Terry Stewart how to do this on his 383 V8/930 trans steup. BTW, mount the pump at trans fluid level, and not above. Andy |
Hmm, I do have the power steering pump from the firebird still.
OOh, didn't some MR2s have electric power steering pumps? $30 from pick-n-pull.. that's what I'm talking about!
| QUOTE (Mueller @ Aug 11 2005, 10:47 AM) | ||
I had thought about power steering pump, but what about the viscosity of the transmission fluid being so much higher than that of the power steering fluid? You also have to make sure the seals are compatible, but I like the idea |
Mike,
Two things working in your favor; pump will be turning much less RPM, and the system is open so you're just moving fluid with little to resist flow.
I haven't experienced a problem with seals, but frankly I don't have an answer (or research) to support it.
Andy
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