Not wanting to put any undue pressure on the TOB I pulled the cable end as far forward as i could while pushing the clutch lever as far back and adjusted the cable with no free play. Tube is good, cable, pressure plate, flywheel etc all have about 30,000kms. Pedal stop is low and yet I have to push the pedal all the way to the floor to keep from grinding in 1st and reverse. I can not pull the pedal back at all as described in the factory manual. It works but barely- the travel is too far even with the cable adjusted with slight pressure on the shift fork lever.

It seems to me there should always be just the slightest play in the cable- no??


Any thoughts?

Pete

@peteinjp

if its grinding its not tight enough. there really should be no play at all its going to be tight and you should be feeling the car start to move when you release the pedal from the floor board about 1/4 of the way , or a bit less. if its too loose then when you press the pedal to t he floor the throw out bearing is not getting enough pressure on the presure plate to disengage the disc so its still grabbing the flywheel. I had this happen to me after installation of a new cable and clutch and i was sitting in traffic and i had the same issue. had to get under the car after it cooled and tighten the cable at the shift fork. but if its adjusted right it will not grind and it will be easy to get into gear when sitting and idling too.

PHil

Most flywheels have been machined at this point and it throws off the geometry of the clutch fork/cable setup. The fix is to install additional shims (washers) behind the clutch fork pivot ball on the trans (though this involves pulling the trans) or replace the flywheel (and still possibly re-shim the pivot fork)

If you look at the clutch fork with the cable removed you will notice there is a gap on the forward side of the clutch fork between it and the trans housing, the larger this gap when installed in the car the worse this problem is. I cant remember the factory spec but I like to shim the pivot so this gap is as small as possible without touching. Anything over 1/4" and the clutch just feels like crap to me. When setup properly you can feel the clutch go "over center" about 1/3 of the way down in the pedal travel. Most 914s I have driven you can never feel it but its a night and day difference when setup properly.

Only 1/R? No problem up and down shifting 2 through 5?

Thanks guys-

Tube in tunnel is clean:

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I can definitely tighten the cable more- that’s not a problem. The issue is that in doing so there is no free play between the cable and the release lever thus putting pressure on the TOB (and ultimately thrust surfaces in the engine?) If I adjust it to the point where the clutch release is 1/3 of the way from the floor I’d have significant pressure on the TOB but probably not enough to cause the clutch to slip.


Shifting is ok when moving- just having a hard time with 1 and R at a standstill- especially R. I had this issue once before and tightened up the cable= problem gone.

Pivot- I can not find any info in the factory manuals (engine flywheel or transaxle) about shimming specs. That said with the clutch fully depressed it seems I man getting close to hitting the the bell housing:

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and with the lever just touching the TOB I have lots of room so it does seem like shimming would be a good idea to prevent interference issues as the clutch wears. I have to tear the car down in the next year or so anyway so I'll take care of that then. Any more info on the said shims would be very helpful.

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That all said- it still does not seem like that would lessen the required throw. Am I over thinking the "pressure on the TOB thing?" Maybe my car just needs full travel to completely engage and release? The way it is not I can not get the free play at the pedal described in the factory lit.

BTW I have ordered the rennline clevis but will stack some washers in for the time being to get a bit more adjustment.


Thank again-

Pete

Yeah thats a huge gap there with the clutch fork. 'Something' with the clutch/linkage needs to be addressed. Could need more than just shimming the pivot, I would get in there and inspect everything (pressure plate, flywheel, etc) and replace all the bushings while you are at it. I suspect possibly a worn pressure plate + disc and/or collapsed pivot bushing as well.

Shimming the pivot ball on the trans will probably have more impact on the clutch fork position than you might expect though. Given the geometry of the clutch fork with the pivot being very near the TB end, moving it a couple mm closer to the pressure plate can result in the cable end moving 1/2" or more forward.


Pulling the trans with the motor in the car isnt to big a deal if you have the necessary tools. I have done it more than a few times.

I seem to recall a few “try this”

1) put a 3/4 inch long bushing on the cable end so you can adjust it more.
There was a time that some cables were too long.
Have someone push the clutch in all the way, if the pivot fork hits the case, you have adjusted it all the way.

2) bend the shift fork
3) add a spacer (stared above)
4) get a new pressure plate and possibly a new flywheel to get back into tolerance

I ordered a different clevis but for now I put in a few washers as a spacer. I considered bending the lever.... but thought I might break it with it in the car. I'll check to see if its not already bent when I pull the engine. The flywheel etc are all replaced with new items 30,000kms ago.

For now I have adjusted the first nut as tight as I can with my fingers. The clutch picks up about 1.5" from the floor stop and no grinding. There is no play in the pedal as there should be but its not so tight that I'm worried about it. Still doesn't seem quite right having the cable tight but I'll give it a go this afternoon and see how it feels.

Pete

sounds like its close, but as already suggested, you may still need to eventually get a new flywheel and disc, also looks like some fluid seeping so either a output shaft leak on trans or RMS leak, probably can tell which it is by the smell . right now it sounds like its driveable unless you get slipping or shuttering then its time to pull the trans and do some maintenence. EDIT- sorry i reread your post and realized your clutch and flywheel already replaced. - if there is fluid leak that will eventually make its way onto the surface and cause issues. - Phil

Has that tunnel been restored?! it's so clean

It sure looks like a clean machine. I have not seen a mention of the free play at the pedal? I generally shoot for 1/2" or so.

I agree with the free play and the bushing. Mine with a bushing and adequate free play had 14mm of thread extending past the nuts

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Yes- the output is leaking- keeping my magnesium stuff from corroding-haha! I'll be taking care of that soon enough but for now its not so bad.



Yes- the whole car has been restored by Cary at Middle Motors- R.I.P. He did a fantastic job as you can see here:

Snoopy

Unfortunately the shipping company screwed me and left the car on a dock in Tacoma though a full winter so there have been pervasive corrosion issues. As the cars new custodian I feel a responsibility to both bring it back up to the condition is was in when I bought it from @raynekat. I'll start a thread but at for the last year I've been back and forth with the insurance company so I'm waiting until that's settled.



I have 0 travel at the pedal. The cable is under the slightest tension- if I get 1/2 of travel its very close to grinding at a standstill going into reverse. Thats why I'm scratching my head about why so much travel is required.



I ordered this which may be a bit long but is a very nice looking part. I also like that it is aluminum so less likely to wear the V in lever any further.

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So- would it be totally impossible to replace #5 bushing in situ?? Probably best to wait but my thought was to 3d print a thicker one in ASA.

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The only other unknown that could affect the throw that I can think of is the pressure plate. It seems possible that it might have a slightly different geometry. I don't know the maker but it is listed as an aluminum unit on the Rothsport build sheet.

Shouldn't need to add in much if the flywheel hasn't been machined down too far. You will run out of throw before it disengages if it needs to be shimmed. However, DO make sure your transmission ground strap is fully grounded.
If not the cable will conduct the voltage and heat the wire. Stretching it slowly until you get exactly what you are showing. Eventually, if you keep adjusting it will snap.

It could be an alternate problem, that is very easy to fix.

Might be a tight pilot bearing if it ONLY grinds gears when stopped.

I'd determine where the clutch is starting to grab when the pedal is released.

If it's just off the floor then it will be geometry related, flywheel thickness, clutch adjustment, worn clutch disc/plate, broken/bent fork, toasted fork pivot.

If engagement is normal, then it will be something else. Tight pilot bearing, trans/engine misalignment, something else weird...

A winter stuck in Tacoma? Outdoors? Uncovered? Right on Puget Sound, with the brisk salty air, is part of the recipe for problems. Did you rinse every section of the exterior? I would have.

A lot of people seemed to be focused on cable threading. While a spacer might help a little all cables are different so the amount of threads/spacers being used are somewhat irrelevant.

One look at the picture of where the clutch fork sits with no cable installed says it all... trans needs to come out to address this properly.

Doesn't matter how you adjust the cable, install spacers on it, or bend the clutch fork, the total range of motion of the clutch fork/throw out bearing is currently limited by its position in the housing.

It's possible the synchro's at 1 and reverse are shot

The "shim" under the pivot ball is nothing more than a simple 8mm washer. No special thickness or calculations.

Consider this; you shim the pivot ball and it moves the clutch fork and TOB closer to the pressure plate. This allows you to have more travel when the clutch is pulled. Your clutch fork in the pic, if I am understanding that is in neutral position, has some potentially limited motion. When you put the second washer under the pivot ball, put teflon tape on the threads or it will slowly leak.

For the bushing in the fork, that needs changed before you drive if it is truly compromised. You will wreck parts inside of your transmission. Not worth it for less than $5 in parts, and an afternoon of work.

Click in my sig for the free 31 paged of notes and look at the clutch adjustment section. I do feel you are over thinking this. Your clutch is not releasing, your dragging it when you shift, you are damaging your rings/sliders/teeth doing this so at least adjust and see what that brings you. A proper adjustment may show you that you DO NOT need mess with the fork at all.

I agree about the TOB pivot bushing.
After that the most likely cause is an incorrectly machined flywheel.
The position of that arm is not normal.
Full release of the disc should start with the arm much further forward toward the
engine. With good parts no shims would be needed
Another possibility is the pilot bearing, if it is tight or dragging the input shaft it can
cause your symptoms.
And one more......the throwout bearing could be very sticky on its guide tube
First step....remove trans.

Flywheel is new- aase unit. All components have 30,000kms. The shift fork looks to be straight. I’ll check the ground strap for sure but the issue is the total throw.



It’s just off the floor with the cable adjusted and under tension.



This has caused numerous problems and ultimately will require the car to be dissasbeled. I pulled all the carpet and interior and rinsed everything inside and out with Saltaway BTW I checked out the chimp sanctuary- very cool!





Actually I have just a bit more room before hitting the housing- but not enough for long term as the disc wears.



Transaxle was just rebuilt and shifts fine when I tighten the cable.




What I would give for an afternoon of free time these days…… that’s the real issue- haha. I have already downloaded your guide- great stuff. Thanks! I wonder if a m8 sealing washer might do the trick without the need for tape??? Might be a slick solution.





Yep- for me that means taking the car off the road for the foreseeable future. But once my 911 is back up and running later this year thats what I’ll be doing.

I did double check the roll pin and was really hoping that was the culprit- but its perfect.

Thanks all for the support. I have one temp fix idea to shorten the throw and will report back. I’ll get this worked out.

Well- as it turns out I was wrong and there the release fork is maxed out. Transmission has to come out.

I did try an interesting experiment to shorten the throw and it does seem to work:

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Anyway.. Good tips on transmission only removal??

Pete

Save yourself the headache and just drop the combo. It is so much easier.
http://www.914world.com/specs/tech_engdrop1.php

I was afraid someone would say that. I hear ya but its going the be a serious slippery slope there. The engine needs some tuning so if I pull it I'll be making an appointment with the Dyno. Next thing you know the car will be in for paint... which is sorely needs.

Gotta get the 911 back on the road- arrgg. I thought this 914 would be a project free car but I guess they never are. This one has definitely turned out to need a lot more attention that I had homed for though.

Pete

SirAndy is correct.

I hope this doesn’t come off the wrong way. IMHO the reason so many 914s are a project is because everyone is trying to shortcut the process and nothing ever gets done the way it should. Not pointing a finger at you. I’ve seen this going on since 80s. Everyone tries so hard to avoid removing the engine and trans. The end result is people trying to work on things in the car and making the job way harder and taking way longer than need be. Or, they just defer the job until things get worse. All in an attempt to avoid removing the engine.

Just pull the engine and trans - it literally is an afternoon job. There is very little engine or transmission work that can be done in the car. It is the nature of mid engine cars. Same for a Ferrari . . . or a Fiat X1/9. However, it is so simple to drop the engine and trans on a 914 it’s ridiculous and you’ll wonder why everyone thinks it’s a big deal.

With the powertrain out, you can easily address the shift fork pivot which certainly should have been addressed before you bought it, but of course the previous owner probably didn’t want to pull the engine & trans either . . . which is . . . how we got here.

Literally - you can have the powertrain out, shim the pivot, and reinstall in a weekend.

No need to get caught up in dyno work and paint if you don’t want to.

I’ll go so far as to say, you ought to do a removal and replacement of the engine & trans once before the dyno and paint, just so you have the hang of it and don’t tear up fresh paint learning. It really isn’t a big deal.

While you are in there …….

I've actually found that it is faster to just remove the transmission.

You need to remove the muffler to make room to slide the trans input shaft out of the flywheel and clutch. You need to remember to unfasten everything that connects the trans to anything else--including the ground strap!

One or two of the fasteners that hold the gearbox onto the engine are accessed from the engine side.

You must support the flywheel end of the motor with something that cannot collapse. A floor jack can collapse, and that will shear your motor mounts. (Don't ask how I know this.)

If you can bench-press the ~75 lbs weight of the transmission, it's a lot easier to manhandle the box out from where it lives. Using a jack is very possible, but balancing it without messing up the pulley and pulley shroud is annoying.

--DD

First off the P.O. had everything engine and axle related done on this resto by one of the most well known in the business. That said I have quite a few "details" that needed attention. One example was that the throttles were not synced on the MFI and the idle stunk bad and the inspection guy said he had never seen a car with worse hydrocarbon levels at idle. The rear main seal is leaking. One cold start T had been crimped too hard and had split the plastic eventually spraying gas throughout the engine compartment. And now this clutch shimming issue. I feel like they dialed in WOT but otherwise just pushed this build though.... Needless to say I won't be sending them any of my work. I think they are too busy with Guntherwerks anyway.

Whatever- I love this car and its going to all get fixed up right. Because some know the P.O. I wanted to be sure that its clear that he did his best with little expense spared and a great guy at that.

I have a lift so that makes things a bit easier. How many KG is a 7R and 901 combo? I'm guessing about 500lbs/225kg dry. I have an height adjustable table that I could snug up to the engine an just use the lift to raise the car off of it.

Also if I pull the whole shebang are there any drawings or specs for some type of engine support that I could put on the table? Photos??

If I pull just the transaxle can I support the rear of the engine from above? I used to do that on my old BMW 2002.


Pete

Your description of your car describes an MFI six in it, so it is way more complex than removing a type IV engine. Pulling the transmission on a lift is a lot easier than disconnecting all of the engine stuff if you don't need to do it.

1. Pull the muffler and the muffler hanger.
2. Disconnect the ground strap
3. Remove the shift linkage.
4. Unhook the CV joints.
5. Unhook the clutch and speedometer cables.
6. Remove the starter.
7. Remove the nuts holding the transmission to the engine.
8. Place a pole jack under the back edge of the engine and make sure it is touching the engine.

9. Put a transmission jack under the transmission, and remove the 4 8mm bolts holding the motor mounts to the body.
10. Slide the transmission rearward until the input shaft clears the clutch and lower it so you can remove it from the car.

This takes me about 2 hours or less on my lift. If you go slow and double check everything, It should not take more than 3 hours. Far less than disconnecting everything in the engine compartment and dropping the motor.

Thanks Clay- sounds like the way to go. Gotta order a RMS as this one is leaking. Also should pull the output shafts for new seals. Any thoughts as to why I'd have leaks with such low mileage?

Pete

I've gone both ways on this one.
I just can't pull an engine as fast as Andy can.

I do it the same way Clay mentioned but I don't bother to pull the starter off. Pull the trans off and bring it down to my chest. My starter is a hi-torque one so its a good bight lighter and less bulky then stock.

Its not fun, per sey, but its a LOT less connecting then removing all the engine bay stuff and re-doing it later.

The only hard part is getting the transmission lined up to the engine right during reinstall. But that's always a PITA - and when you get it right it just goes right on.

Zach

If I'm going to replace the output seals should I loosen the output shaft bolts while the axle is still in the car? Flywheel bolts reusable? Any other consumables I should have on hand?



Pete

It's easy to install the RMS wrong, or use a brand of seal that won't provide a good seal in the first place. As far as the output flanges go, mine didn't leak until the rebuild. Then one of them leaked and still continues to leak even after pulling the transmission again and installing another new seal.

It happens.

Well I found a couple of hours (some nighttime prep.... unit out.

First impressions as a first timer- the input shaft and clutch are so small! I'd be nervous to try a 3.6 with this transaxle...

Anyway- taking out the transaxle was very easy. Helps that I have a lift but even with a jack/axle adapter it would be no problem and I would in fact do this over without a full engine drop. Everything is very easy to reach. Even my BMW 2002 was more work than this to pull the transmission.

Held up the engine with a simple scaffolding leg using a rubber block up top and used a hydraulic table with a simple wooden jig to support the transaxle and it just slid right out.


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In looking over the parts at first there were no obvious issues apparent. Everything was well greased and in great shape.

Nylon pivot in place:

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Fork straight:

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Wait a second......there are issues with the last 2 pics- are the related to the problem or not- that I do not know.

Good job getting the trans out - beautiful garage.

The main pivot you’re interested in is in the bottom photo - circled. Under the pivot ball stud that screws into the trans housing. To regain shift fork geometry this pivot ball gets another (or a thicker) washer between it and the trans housing to move the pivot rearward. This will get you some clearance between the shift fork lever arm and the trans housing.

I can’t tell from the photo on top if there are parts of the pressure plate hanging up on the flywheel. If the flywheel has been machined deeper than it should have been, this can lead to the symptoms you’re having. Likewise if they machined the flywheel face deeper but didn’t take a similar amount off the top face - maybe it can lead to interference between the flywheel and the pressure plate? I’m speculating. Just give those three tabs an eye and make sure they aren’t hung up.

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This guy! Washer goes under this ball stud

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The flywheel is supposedly new but I'll check those for sure- who knows??

the pressure plate and clutch all seem good- clutch disk well within spec. As the y all should be with 30000kms.



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One thing that bothers me though is that in this photo there is still a mm or 2 before the fork hits the bell housing- and yet the fork would not move further. With the PP out of the way the fork has no problem moving all the way to the bell housing.

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Maybe something was binding before the PP was able to release all the way??

Then I found this:


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FWIW HiTorque starter

Ugh! Starter not fully engaging ring gear teeth!

Edit: search on hi torque starter - this has been a reoccuring issue with some brands of the hi torque starter not having the mounting plate machined properly and/or binding resulting in only partial engagement with the ring gear. Recently someone else was having issues with WOSP high torque starters.

Time for a new flywheel - I’m so sorry you’re going through these troubles!


What is this that looks like it’s flaking? Looks like cardboard / shipping material? Doesn’t look like iron or steel.

Click to view attachment

The nylon pivot bushing needs to be in the hole in the throw out fork then the yoke is installed.
The small yoke goes under the pivot ball. I think that is why you don't have correct range for the throw out yoke.

great work and a PITA for sure, Bummer about the ring gear starter issue, Two steps forward...... lots of work I know but looks like you will get to the bottom of it!!

that is one beautiful work place, especially in Japan. Beautiful building and set up. I think I can appreciate the effort that that would take to put into place. Where are you?? I lived in Atsugi for 3 years.

Oh yes, that is also one crazy nice car too - best seats ever, coolest motor ever, great color, just over the top nice.

Probably not what you want to hear but personally, if it were me and now that its out, I would replace:

Flywheel - as the ring gear is trashed

Starter - as it trashed the ring gear

Pressure plate - appears to have an unusual amount of wear where it contacts the Throwout bearing for having only ~18k miles, and I have learned NEVER to trust used pressure plates anyways.

Clutch disk- just a given as you are replacing the flywheel and pressure plate

Throwout bearing - Definitely inspect, possibly replace as its unclear why the pressure plate teeth are worn the way they are. I would probably just replace on principal.

All the shift fork bushings - because they are cheep and you are in there.


Then test fit the trans (bolts needs to be tightened) and inspect the position of the clutch fork. then possibly pull the trans back out and shim the pivot ball. I have had to shim these even with all new components to get them perfect. Given you are replacing a lot of wear items that will impact the position of the clutch fork though test fit BEFORE adding the shims as it doesn't take much to bring that fork all the way forward. Even if you dont think you are running out of clutch fork travel before disengagement, still get that fork shimmed as far forward as possible without contacting the housing as it will improve the feel of the clutch pedal.

I think that is a lot of wear on the pressure plate fingers for that mileage as mentioned ,also looks like there are chatter marks on the contact face as superhawk pointed out,maybe the disk centre is a bit loose ,worth checking that and also make sure the springs aren't loose ,IMO there is more wrong to the OP's issues that the release arm travel and the rest needs checking for such a low mileage.
Reckon those starters are shite,appears many have had issues with them and unsure why some think this is an upgrade as the stock starter works fine in good condition,my own car is running "4" Bosch starter and have never had a problem ,have a 911 spare starter but haven't fitted it for that reason.
I added 1mm spacer to my ball pivot and it made a real differance,my flywheel was in great condition but had been resurfaced but still in spec as luck would have it.
Cheers.

Thanks for the compliments. I love my garage. It's very unusual as its built in an old house. I can fit 2 cars in for work at a time- barely but it all works out.

I'm in Toyama. I run a small glass studio here. The local roads are unbelievable with a mix of tight stuff (914) and some spots where I can stretch my legs (964.) Endless and in the winter out comes the old land cruiser for the snow.

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The car is very nice- but has had more issues that I would have hoped for- this being on example. I'll be pulling it all apart in the next year or 2 for paint and sealing- once I have the suspension done on the 964.

Anyway- So yes the PP does have some small (and I think minor) cracking on the surface. Obviously the flywheel needs to be replaced. So- I'm leaning towards trying a lighter unit.....

Maybe this:

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Wasn't really thinking of replacing all this stuff but the starter issue has pushed the point. I'm open to recommendations in terms of components.

What is a Bosch 4" starter?

Welcome to 914 ownership! I have had many 914s for near 25 years now and in that time have learned that if I haven't replaced a part already myself I can almost always expect that there will be some issue with it.




Unless you want to know the car is perfect when you are done you may want to rethink that plan. If you decide to blast it to bare metal before repainting be prepared to find a lot more surprises.

Sometimes ignorance is bliss

If it looks nice as it is currently it may be worth it just to enjoy it for awhile, once you take the paint off you start down a rabbit hole. An expensive and time consuming rabbit hole.




Never driven a lightened setup on a 6 but have one on one of my 4cyl cars and really think the increased rev speed boosts the fun factor. Does require a little more throttle/slipping of the clutch off the line but barely enough to notice and I suspect the larger displacement of a 6 might help with that as well.

The body has been completely gone through once, and has been well documented on the site here:

just arrived…

That said, there are issues with the paint, and to be perfectly honest I would leave it except for there areas that are starting to lift. I have found one small rust hole under the rear quarter that wasn’t repaired. Otherwise I think everything else is probably taken care of.

I love the 914 and am glad to join you long term owners! I definitely plan on keeping mine!

Pete

Flywheel has a hot spot evident from the front side (non friction.)


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Micro cracks in the pressure plate. not sure if the is abnormal. The cracks are very fine:

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Given the off center heat mark on the flywheel it seems one side was getting hotter than the rest. I wonder if one of the teeth from the flywheel made its way/lodged into the pressure plate assembly throwing it off parallel as it engaged???


RMS leak for sure-not the case. Surprised to see a VR seal in there as it is the least popular on the forums. I'll probably try the elring. It does seem there is a Speedy sleeve in there already:

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I was referring to the 4 cyl 914 starter or the 911 one which has a bit more h.p.,both will work.
Those pics confirm what I had thought about the clutch being another issue,don't really think the ring gear teeth were the issue as they would most likely get spat out the bellhousing opening on to the road.
Looking @ those heat marks and resulting cracks that clutch has been slipping most likely caused by a faulty unit or not fully releasing as per your comment about the peddle having no upward movement and the wear on the pressure plate fingers.
I would caution you on the PMS unit as the (pie plate ) 215mm stock unit is pretty light anyway,all good using stock Saches ZF components.
Not sure on a replacement flywheel source,you need to research that and be savvy as I seem to remember prices are all over the place as for the clutch kits.
VR 911 crank seals are rubbish,fitted one on my motor and it popped in by hand ...way to loose in the case,proper seal needed to be dead blow hammered in and went in nice and level.
End of the day sadly all the old bits are toast,but I know this car and it is too nice to not have back on the road.
Good luck,cheers.

Oh- the 4 cylinder unit bolts up- that's good to know.

After posting I was recalling the driving experience- I never found the engine sluggish to rev with the stock unit so I'll likely stick with that.

Doug built an awesome car and I'll get it all buttoned up for sure.

Thanks-

Pete