Does the engine need to be removed to change the seals?

Any and all thoughts are appreciated!

I think it's hateful enough of a job trying to do it in the car (you have to remove studs to get the cooler clear) that you may find it worthwhile to remove the drivertain first.

However, when I was removing my drivertain yesterday to get to something behind the fan housing, I looked at it closely and I think that if you remove the sheet metal at the front of the engine, you may have enough space to remove the fan, alternator, and fan housing. From there it's a lot easier work (and would probably make an alternator swap a lot easier, too)..

I've never done it in the car, so "caveat emptor". - GA

The simple fact of any mid-engine car is that it is easier to do service with the engine removed from the car.

In less than the time it takes to screw around trying to remove all that stuff working under the car - I could have the engine/trans/heat exchanger/muffler assembly dropped out of the car. Obviously it takes longer to do anything if it’s the first time you ever dropped an engine.

At that point it’s all in the open, easy to get to, and less likely to have collateral damage working on stuff.

The other thing is that once you’re no longer an engine drop virgin, you don’t need to worry about doing it again, and again, and again. Heck you might even discover you like dropping the engine.

Having just done both a seal change while in the car and a whole engine drop with cooler replacement (and a quick 2056 upgrade), I would have to say go for both. Replacing the seals in the car was super easy, and if that is the only thing wrong, go for it. However, I replaced my seals in about an hour only to find that in fact my cooler was cracked...

So, if you are confident it is the seals, just slide the cooler back, pop in the new ones, and call it a day. If you are not sure... well, in the time it took you to replace the seals you could have dropped the engine. I only suggest the easy no drop because if you do drop the engine you could have issues with old brittle wiring etc.

Yes, I would recommend to pull the engine. It's much easier and you are not compromising the repair by working from underneath. Access is key with this job.

I didn't find this job too difficult with the engine in the car. Not everyone has the space to make an engine pull easy.
Try it with the engine in the car first. Worst case scenario is you end up having to pull the engine.

I did it with the engine in and followed
a tech procedure on Pelican.
It is doable.
https://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/9...ooler_seals.htm

Earlier this summer I had reason to do this job.
Having never done it "in car" I took the opportunity to learn how easy or hard it was....
IMO pull the motor.

Worst case is you do all the work attempting to do it in car. But because space, visibility, and access are all limited, you install seals and button it all up. . . .

Only to find the seals slipped out of place or got cocked when tightening the cooler back up and couldn’t see the seals - and they are now leaking even worse.

Then . . . You get to pull the engine to do it the right way.

What’s the old saying ? Never have the time to do it right the 1st time but we always have the time to do it a 2nd?

YRMV

It's not that hard of a job. If I can do it with the engine in, anyone can. Or maybe I didn't do it 'right'.

@rjames

I apologize - wasn’t meant as an attack on you.

Been around long enough and have seen others get screwed doing it in car. Can it be done that way - yes

Would I do it that way - no

Again apologize that it came off as a personal attack.

@Superhawk996
I appreciate the note, thanks. It’s all good.

Like many I have done it both ways, and far prefer to have the engine on the bench and catch up on other misc items while you are in there.

Access is key

I think the only difficulty is getting your hand in there to clean the area up and that upper bolt on the oil filter mount. I have big hands but I would rank the difficulty as maybe a 2 out of 10. If you had small hands I would say it gets a 1 out of 10. I used a bottle of A and D ointment laying around from when the kids were infants to hold the seals in. Worked great, no slippage. Did the same with the engine out and I could see how well that held the seals in place. Definitely get yourself a ratcheting 10mm wrench for the nuts holding it in place.

And as far as access, I found it way more comfortable laying on my back doing this than crouched over in front of my engine when it was out, but I am getting old and less bendy.

But if you don't drop the engine, how can you play the "while it's out" game?

Come on people, it's only three 10mm (2 easy to get to) nuts and 1 fastener (easy to get to) located at the end of the oil cooler.

For only one fiddly nut, it's such a waste of time and effort to pull the engine IMHO. The reality is that it's so much more difficult just to remove the CV bolts & CVSs. And that's only a small part of removing the motor.

Pull out an assortment of small extensions and a universal joint and get that little nut off. Then slide the cooler to the side. Then put some super glue (or grease) on the side of a long skinny screwdriver to properly locate the two seals. Do not over-tighten the fasteners. That's probably why it leaked.

http://www.914world.com/specs/tech_engdrop1.php

I would almost agree with you IF it were only the oil cooler seals leaking.

Personally, I’ve never seen an engine with only the oil cooler leaking and everything else in great shape.

There are so many other things that can be easily done when the engine is out

• Valve adjust with super easy access
• Easily replace spark plugs
• Inspect / replace hard brittle vacuum hoses
• Inspect engine wiring
• Front main seal if needed
• Rear main seal if needed
• Push rod tube seals if needed
• Inspect / replace clutch
• inspect engine mounts
• Inspect & replace throw out bearing and plastic pivot cup & fork sliders
• Inspect / tighten / replace alternator belt
• Inspect shift linkage bushings and coupler
• General engine clean up for more efficient cooling.

A reoccurring theme on this site is how leaky and unreliable these cars can be for some folks. Well yeah - if the engine hasn’t been pulled in 30 years and routine maintenance has been deferred because each owner was afraid to pull the engine what else would we expect?

This need not turn into Dirk Wright syndrome. But having the engine out is a good time to put eyes on things that would rarely been so easily seen and accessed.

Had to look up Dirk Wright. That one goes back a ways...

I do agree with you. If the front main or rear main seal is leaking, clutch needs replaced, etc., etc.

But that wasn't the poster's question. The question was whether to pull the motor to replace leaking oil cooler seals. The answer to that question is no, it's a waste of time and effort.

Correct

Classic "Since you're there"

almost like a airplane preventive check,

Are you sure it's the oil cooler seals? There are other potential spots for oil leakage in the vicinity

I actually found Dirk Wright on LinkedIn. He is a really nice guy and remembers 914s fondly.

For what it is worth, I have done it both ways.

I replaced the oil cooler, not the seals, the whole cooler in the parking lot of a hotel in Salt Lake City. It was NOT an easy job, but dropping the motor in a hotel parking lot 1200 miles from home was not an option.

If I am at home, in my garage, I will always drop the motor. It is a much better way to do it.

I don't know. The shop that works on it for me said the cooler. What else should I suggest be looked at?

Thank and this forum!

And the plot thickens.

The oil pressure sender is right above it....

I figured out it was my cooler when I noticed it only leaked bad if the oil got hot and the valve opened the oil cooler.

Don’t forget the possibility of leaking galley plugs (circled) or the gasket behind the oil filter (arrow)

All these look like leaking oil cooler seals from the bottom.

The idea that you’re having to scope out these possibilities (both of the repair procedure and where it might be coming from) doesn’t bode well for the shop

Click to view attachment

We live in NASCAR country. Way out in country. The shop I use is a VW bug restoration/repair specialist. They do some very good work. He's been good about educating me but has told me he is not a specialist in type 4 motors.

This is why I come to you guys now and then for advice and it is greatly appreciated.

My oil leaks turned out to be leaking oil galley plugs after first suspecting the oil cooler. After pulling the motor apart, inspection revealed the culprit to be galley plugs in the vicinity of the oil cooler. The leaks had shown up after an oil change done by a garage at the request of a body shop and the sump had been overfilled by 1.5 quarts. We replaced nine oil galley plugs with threaded plugs. In view of this, I recommend pulling the motor for a thorough inspection of the area when you replace the oil cooler. Less work in the long run.

Going back to Emery’s post, make sure shop has done UV dye trace in the oil before you let them tear stuff apart.

I also have an engine that had an oil pressure sensor hole that was stripped out and leaking profusely. It looked just like an oil cooler leak from below.

Bottom line, make the shop prove to you that they know where the leak is originating before they start charging $ for dropping an engine. When I first posted, I was under the impression you were the one doing the work and that labor is essentially free.

When I was tidying up the engine tin and stuffing the drivetrain yesterday, I gave this a closer look. I'm more convinced that you can remove the front engine tin and you *might* have enough space to get the fan housing off while it's still in the car.

One screw underneath, six(?) screws on top, and the front tray/tin should lift out. Working underneath you can get to the fan bolts, which upon removal then allows you to remove the housing.

I may try that next time I need to work on the front of the engine. Though it only took me a couple hours solo to remove the drivetrain (I have a lift).

GA

P.S. Of course, if you try that method, you would be wise to go ahead and replace the front crank seal and o-ring behind the hub (torque to 23 ft-lbs with blue loctite!) and even give reasonable thought to re-sealing the oil pump...

[/quote]
Totally agree. And from the first post, it seemed you knew it was the oil cooler seals that were the problem. Since that may not be the problem, more/better diagnostics are in order.

When I tested our new 2056 motor last year, it had good oil pressure, so installed it. Turns out it had an oil leak in the same area, but turned out to be the oil pressure sending unit. It was a little loose and was an easy fix to tighten it from the top side - no engine dropping required .

In addition, even though the shop isn't a type iv specialist, if they know VWs, they know type iv oil coolers. The type iv oil cooler is a pretty simple part and is really just a VW "dog house" cooler.

Useful data point: you can get to the front of the engine with the drivetrain still installed. You can even get the fan housing off, too.

I tried it this afternoon when I realized I had botched up the CPS toothed gear install during my crankshaft repair. I was able to remove the front lower sheet metal and gain access to remove the fan and flip the toothed gear around. That process was certainly easier and faster than re-removing the drivetrain.

It's a bit of a PITA especially if you have nice surround seals, but I made it work. I took off the driver's side shortie piece down first, then leveraged around the longer bit upward to get it off.

BTW, removing that shortie bit will be on my standard checklist for R&R the alternator. It makes things a TON easier. - GA