sooooo, as some of you might know, i have been tinkering with the idea of putting a FI system on my hot cammed 2056 that utilizes a single throttle body and long intake runners (similar to the stock D-Jet setup).

the idea is that long runners promote more low end tourque (gud for AX) and the single throttle body makes tuning *much* easier ...

the initial idea was to reproduce the stock 2.0L runners with a larger OD for the bigger displacement engine plus a bigger size (volume) plenum.

this proved somewhat difficult and the quotes i got for fabbing such runners where in the $1500 - $2000 range for a "test" set.

so i consulted a pro, and we came up with a slightly changed attack plan:

- short carb intake manifolds with welded on injector bungs
- cylindrical plenum on top of the manifolds on each side
- horizontal runners to a single center plenum
- single throttlebody

all sizes/volumes/length/dia. has been worked out to fit engines from ~2056 to ~2270, for bigger engines sizes would have to be changed ...

well, so far, the short carb intake manifolds with welded on injector bungs have been finished and they turned out great.
i hope the rest will follow soon (mostly held up by $$$ at this point)

attached are a few pics of the intakes and a schema of what the complete system will look like ...
Andy


the manifold with the injector bungs welded on:


injector angle, pretty much a straight shot at the valve:


closeup of the bung:


quick photoshop mockup of the layout:

That is the Romulan Bird of Prey, from the original (children playing in space) Star Trek series.




M

QUOTE

closeup of the bung

Nooooooooooo!!!!

Seriously, Andy Brian with RR-PCA, who runs the red 914 with the 2.1 or 2.2 FOUR has adapted a Volvo TB to his car with very good results.

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 21 2005, 11:01 PM)

That is the Romulan Bird of Prey, from the original (children playing in space) Star Trek series.

i knew you would figure out where i got the idea from ...

Andy

QUOTE (trekkor @ Aug 21 2005, 11:09 PM)

Seriously, Andy Brian with RR-PCA, who runs the red 914 with the 2.1 or 2.2 FOUR has adapted a Volvo TB to his car with very good results.

and how is a volvo TB going to help me with the volume of the plenum and the OD of the runners???

do you understand what i'm trying to build?
Andy

Yes, I do.

You need a big, thick lead trashcan, and alot of CF to wrap it in, if you breach the warp core... only Kirk knows..



M

I prolly don't, but unless you enlarge the intake ports to match your new BIG runners, it may not make a differance...

Can I have your Weber's?

KT

Trek, keep going man, I am so rolling around on the floor.. 2 times in months, where that poking smiley made me gag laughing.. the other was in the 4/6 thread, with Scott T



M

dammit jim

QUOTE (trekkor @ Aug 21 2005, 11:16 PM)

I prolly don't, but unless you enlarge the intake ports to match your new BIG runners, it may not make a differance...

no where in my post did i say i was going to use the stock TB ...

i'm planning on enlarging the complete system to be able to handle the increased appetite for air my engine has developed ...

bigger OD on the runners, more plenum volume, bigger TB. goes with larger valves in the head and larger OD headers ...

should be fun when it's done. btw. the guy who's fabbing all this stuff for me builds drag-racing engines.

word on the street has it, he build a nice T4 turbo setup for a club-member as well ...
Andy

I gotta keep the jabs to a minmum as I don't want him spearing me on the Go-Kart track tomorrow, getting us both black flagged...


KT

Dood, are you kidding? If he charges you, just let him hit you, fall down, and we'll show them the picture of him with the green tongue..



THE MEAN GERMAN HIT ME! (black flag on his morning!)


M

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Aug 21 2005, 11:22 PM)

word on the street has it, he build a nice T4 turbo setup for a club-member as well ... Andy

Stop, you're embarassing me.

QUOTE (jonwatts @ Aug 21 2005, 11:48 PM)

Stop, you're embarassing me

i didn't think that was possible ...

Andy

how about using stock 90deg exhaust bends for the runners?
weld some flanges to them, so they bolt to your weber manifolds

Sooo... 944 TB?

Hold on a little while Andy. I'm putting my 2270 in the car over Labor Day. Raby 2270 G kit. The intake is stock except for a 50 mm throttle body and I opened up the snorkel on the air box . Exhaust is the early Eurorace header into a small Magnaflow muffler. We'll see if it pumps enough air. When I had it in the car last winter it looked like it would work.

Dave

Dave, I am sure it will run but....odds are it will run out of air at high rpms.


Interesting Andy, I think I can get my welder guy to fab up some stuff with bends in it so its four runner to the plenum from the carb manifold. (I have some of those laying around as backup if you other idea didn't work.)

I don't think larger valves is neede just a different duration on the cam to use the extra air. Huge intake valves just get in the way and slow down the intake charge. 44mm should be plenty big for anything and not disrupt the port speed.

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Aug 22 2005, 07:21 AM)

I don't think larger valves is needed

i already got the larger valves, so i'm sticking with them ...

90 deg. bends and individual runners to the plenum would be nice, just gotta make that plenum big enough.
also, the small "stubbies" on the stock plenum have a rolled lip inside to aid airflow.
just something to remember ...

Andy

How are you sizing the plenum? There seem to be several schools of thought on this.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 22 2005, 12:01 PM)

How are you sizing the plenum? There seem to be several schools of thought on this.

yes.

basically, i took measurements on several different porsche engines, including a few factory race engines, calculated the plenum volume per cylinder volume average and that's what i'm going to use ...

Andy

What are you ending up with? What's your coefficient? I'd assume hp/liter would be a good yardstick, if you had some empirical data to go with that.

QUOTE (lapuwali @ Aug 22 2005, 12:59 PM)

What are you ending up with? What's your coefficient? I'd assume hp/liter would be a good yardstick, if you had some empirical data to go with that.

i'd rather not disclose that just yet ...

i wanna make sure it actually works before i lead other people down the wrong path ...

only the dyno can tell!
Andy

QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Aug 22 2005, 07:21 AM)

Dave, I am sure it will run but....odds are it will run out of air at high rpms. Interesting Andy, I think I can get my welder guy to fab up some stuff with bends in it so its four runner to the plenum from the carb manifold. (I have some of those laying around as backup if you other idea didn't work.) I don't think larger valves is neede just a different duration on the cam to use the extra air. Huge intake valves just get in the way and slow down the intake charge. 44mm should be plenty big for anything and not disrupt the port speed.

bigger valves dont block the intake flow unless the valve is severly shrouded, either by the heads combustion chamber and or the cylinder wall.
the valve would have to pretty big to do that, and usually you still get an increase in flow due to the larger seat cross section area[ you are opening the port under the the valve seat right?]

Sor Ahndie,

Is your manifold gonna look kinda like this type 3 manifold?

Squareback Manifold

or this turbo manifold at STF?

Turbo Manifold

Ken

QUOTE (kwales @ Aug 24 2005, 03:05 PM)

Is your manifold gonna look kinda like this type 3 manifold? or this turbo manifold at STF?

nope, first one only has a single runner per side and no common plenum to speak of ...
and the second one is similar to the first.

i'm more interested in a large common plenum in the center and long individual runners for each cylinder ...
Andy

Sor Ahndie,

What I meant was these were kind of like the klingon battle cruiser with the vertical pipes, the small manifolds, the cross pipes and for the turbo, another big manifold in the center (see sketch on photo in link).

Also, the turbo shows welded construction of pipes that look like a reasonable size. I can't imagine that fabbing bent pipes would be too hard or too costly. Motorcycle exhaust pipes might be closer in size. Anybody in town make custom headers for bikes? They might have tubing and bending equipment in sizes closer to what you need than auto tailpipe sizes.

I have welded one end of a pipe, packed it with sand and welded the other end before bending. Sand prevents the tube from collapsing while you bend. Harbor freight sells tubing benders that would work with that.

Another thought. I drive a 2.1L wasserboxer vanagon. Wonder what diameter intake pipes that uses and what size plenum and throttle body. Looks just like a teener. I will try to measure tomorrow. Wnder if I have any batteries for the calipers?

Ken

Andy, news for you.

I spoke with Andy at the RR-PCA a/x yesterday about his set-up. He has a red 914 with and oversized FOUR as well.

He runs a 2270cc with modified D-jet.
Volvo throttle body, "early" injectors, fuel pressure set to 35psi and a resistor wired in line to the CHT sensor.

His car runs perfect and sounds great. He has TTOD's at the a/x so it's for real.

I can get more info if you want it.
So much for D-jet on 2056's and smaller, eh?
He has it all figured out.

KT

We've (most) heard stories that it can be tuned to around 2,300cc capable.


M

trek, whats the point of the resitor in line with the CHT?? trick the ECU into boosting flow/fuel?

Must be...

just thinking, it works and no expensive fabbing required.

Did I mention how well it ran?

KT

QUOTE (trekkor @ Sep 4 2005, 09:05 PM)

Must be... just thinking, it works and no expensive fabbing required. Did I mention how well it ran? KT

yes, we know it works, however:

what is max RPM he runs the motor up to?

and more importanty...is there room for improvement??


just 'cause it works does not mean it's an ideal setup

with Andys new parts, it should very easy to swap back to the stock plenum and runners for comparison which I'm sure he'll be doing....

Yeah, and thousands of dollars later

What kind of RPM's are you looking for that D-jet can't handle?


KT

above 4500rpms seems to be the problem with lean out.

QUOTE (trekkor @ Sep 4 2005, 11:03 PM)

Yeah, and thousands of dollars later

what's wrong with spending money on a nice setup?

Andy

PS: i honestly don't understand why everything you do has to be cheap to qualify as "good". don't make no sense to me ...

QUOTE

everything you do

Nope...

When it comes to things that are non-914, like my truck, tools and daily driver you couldn't be more wrong.

On my 914, I have put together a fun car that I enjoy. I believe it has a much higher market value than what I have put into it.

I'll never try and stop you from persuing your goal of building a reliable, and powerful F.I. system.
I won't insult you, either.

I'd prefer not to start an unfriendly exchange.

Glad you are back!

KT

QUOTE (trekkor @ Sep 4 2005, 11:03 PM)

Yeah, and thousands of dollars later

the stock 914 suspension works...why spend money on it???

Andy, I hope you are not in hurry for your axles, I leave on Thru. and will be gone until the 18th or 19th....

I can possibly work on them Wed. evening and leave them on the side of the house for you to pick up....

Fellas, I guess it all comes down to how you want to spend your money. By all means, do as you please.
I won't cut corners on any part of my car.
The receipts for my suspension should prove that...

ugghh, I got sucked into an argue-hi-jack...sorry.

KT

QUOTE (trekkor @ Sep 4 2005, 08:48 PM)

He runs a 2270cc with modified D-jet

ok, then answer me this:

what CAM is he running? what overlap, what lift?
valve sizes?
headwork?
what is the compression ratio on that motor?

yes, you certainly can tweak the stock D-Jet to run with a bigger displacement engine, but when you get into more agressive components, the D-Jet is simply not the best solution.

it won't give you the max. out of your engine, even if it runs smooth ...
Andy

QUOTE (trekkor @ Sep 6 2005, 12:55 AM)

Fellas, I guess it all comes down to how you want to spend your money. By all means, do as you please. I won't cut corners on any part of my car. The receipts for my suspension should prove that... ugghh, I got sucked into an argue-hi-jack...sorry. KT

do you have engine tin yet?

I e-mailed Andy with the 2270 and asked for more details about his set-up.

I included a link to this thread and invited him to log on and join the fun.

I would be guessing if I said any more.

Aaron...Brad asured me I do not need the engine tin unless I sit in So/Cal or lower, bumper-to-bumper traffic.

Nice jab, though.




KT

Now I'm making comments that even I don't know about...