Hi everyone! This is a great source that i look at daily. Have a question for the experts.

Car: 73 2.0 with original motor, Weber 40 carbs (but have fully functional injection in boxes - wanted to play with carbs -sadistic), MSD 6AL ignition, Holley fuel pump, all braided fuel lines, inline fuel filter, headers, supertrapp, custom cage (driver compartment only right now with side bars), fuel cell, remote cooler up front with -10/AN lines running center of car, corbeau seats w/5-point harness, koni adjustables all around- 200lb springs in the rear, stock torsion bars (as far as i know)stock brake calipers, pagid orange pads, 19mm master cylinder, braided lines, fiber hoods and bumpers, includng the GT front end with cutouts for the correct shaped and ducted cooler, 2.0 fuchs w/ 205/50/15 kuhmo rubber and a set of 15x7 panasports (race) when i get the courage to flare. Car is almost exclusively used for track and autocross, although i plan to do an occasional weekend fun run starting soon (will register for this purpose - it isnt currently). Thats all i can think of to describe - trying not to get flamed for poorly formed question.

Opportunity: Original 2.0 from 6 cylinder car in family (read - free) with good heat exhangers and muffler. Motor has been sitting for 10 years in dry and controlled conditions, when father pulled it and put it an IMSA race motor and generally turned the car into a monster; he races the car in several venues.

Question: Im sure this question has been asked before, but what kind of efforts would be needed to install the 2.0. How much are top end parts, assuming the bottom is ok and the end result would be a "warmed" stock motor for the HSR 2.0 class, with an eye toward longevity? What about conversion costs (motor only at first)?

Any advice/comments would be really appreciated!

Bill

EDIT - knew i would miss something! Side shifter with shortened 4th and 5th.

You need a lot more than the motor....oil tank, lines, and motor mount to name a few.

To rebuild that 2.0/6 will cost as much as getting a 3.0 and throwing the carbs and Heat Exchangers on it.....but you will MUCH more fun. That 2.0 has 110 hp.....pretty anemic compared to the 3.0 or 3.2,.....

Appreciate the response Mike. My goal is to have a class-legal car in HSR 2.0 class without expecting to spend 25k to be a "winner". Most interested in having a car that will be fun without destroying the bank account. Have done a bit of research, but sure that i havent looked under every stone....

Should also mention that I would be able to (with a few knowledgeable friends) be able to do most of the motor work myself....

All replies really welcome!

Well....with the stock motor, you WILL be in that class....being competitive will be another matter.

Talk to Chris Campbell.....he is runing a small bore 914/6 and he has gobs more hp than the stock 2.0/6....

Hey Bill !!

The 2.0 6 cyl engine is the choice to go with in the HSR class do to the power output available from a race-prepped 2.0 6.

However... you can build a 180hp 4cyl for a few K cheaper and the car weighs less.

I'll revisit this thread a little later.

B

i don't think the 2.0/6 is going to give you any significant advantage that would justify the (high) costs of converting from /4 to /6 ...
the 2.0/4, if "warmed up" a bit has similar power/torque numbers as the /6.

just my 2 cents,
Andy

Mike - how can i get in touch with Chris?

Brad - have a 4cyl 2.5 project i can gracefully bow out of right now - im mostly worried about the "grenade" effect most of these hot 4cl cars seem to have, plus the sixes i have been on the track with have the low end torque/grunt that just leaves me in the dust coming out of a corner. Just dont want to spend another dime on the almost ready to assemble 4 cyl project i have. Its been done "right", but an opportunity on a factory 914/6 seems a little good to pass on - besides i would end up there anyway! Slippery slope......

Chris posts on this board. He will see the thread, or you can send him a PM.

The big/4s can be had from Jake RAby....he seems to be pretty competent on the bad boy 4 cylinders....

ChrisC cant help you. He runs a totally different class (POC)with a 2.4 6cyl engine.

B

yeah im aware of Jake down there - he doesnt touch the 103's that are on this motor and for 7k, I cant for the life of me find a way to explain that kind of scratch for a 4 cyl to the wife BTW - your avatar is gonna get me in trouble....

Defintely would like to find out how to get more, yet reliable horses from the 2.0 IF I go down that route....

Um Mike.. what part of 2.0 class dont you understand ??

Raby doesnt build hot rod 2.0 race engines that run on race gas.


B

Ouch..ok I now know our budget. It will be real difficult to build a 2.0 6cyl or 4 cyl that will be competitive for that class.

We end up with 10k in our 1.8 185 hp engines.

B

Everything....take a pill.....

Brad,

Even with doing the assemby ourselves? Have several knowledgable people helping, so it would be a matter of headwork and maybe some cam work? Im definitely not looking to win the 2.0 class, just to run and get more experience, run my car at DE, and maybe do some PCA, all for pretty much fun. Willing to wait to get the big motor and progress gradually.

For some reason..I couldnt post a smilie to let you know I was busting your balls.


B

Its not just the engine..

Oil tanks are 500-600$ new
Oil lines.... 300$+ depending on what you use.
Engine mount... 350$+ "depending on what you use."
Engine tin...300$+ "..................."
Headers for the engine.... 350$ "You could use the stock heavy HE's" but I would sell them.

B

Ok now we are getting somewhere - these are are the kind of numbers I am looking for. Willing to spend the dollars on the required stuff. Completely agree on the new parts route for oil system, been burned on used before...

"Engine mount... 350$+ "depending on what you use.""
Whats the best route here?

"Engine tin...300$+ "...................""
Was hoping to use fiberglass -as you noted the 6 motor is heavier and every bit counts i suppose.

"Headers for the engine.... 350$ "You could use the stock heavy HE's" but I would sell them."

Defintely going that route. How much can be expected to come back from the sale of stock original 914-6 HE's in good condition?

looking at around 1600 for the oil system, exhaust, and tin, minus whatever i can get for the HE's.

Of course sell the original 2.0 4 cylinder for 1k with rebuilt webers....

I was trying to be polite and point him in directions that equated to ...... "How competitive do want to be? How much ya got?"

People think that small bore motors are cheap....they aren't. A 30 year old engine is just that....30 years old. You can update it with newer technology....but $$$ Caching....is in the same conversation......

Engine mount:

Rich Johnson mount (firewall mount weld in..No crossbar that interferes with headers)

Yes.. on fiberglass "tin". Still 350-400$

Stock HE's: 800-1k depending on condition.

B

It's all magical, and expensive, and then you have to go and say something like that.

I actually say in conversation, "My life, and I mean my car when I say that... is.."..



M

RedShift I resemble that remark sometimes....

Really aware that this will cost and willing to take my time to do it right. I have a running 2.0 4cyl that gets along quite nicely, a 2.5 4 cyl project i somewhat regret getting into (primarily because a 6 is ultimately going to be more reliable and provide more horsepower/torque for displacement from what i have seen and read), and plenty of time. Would like to get a full picture then assess what do. This board is definitely filled with insight, experience, and creativity, so want your input!

Thanks

My car is a 2.2 "S" spec built on a -6 motor. So it's not technically legal for the HSR 2L class although I hear they are not too anal about classifications if you're not a top-finisher. Which I wouldn't be, LOL. As you know there are plenty of high-dollar cars running there with engines that cost as much as my entire car...maybe more.

My engine was not super "cheap" but was a turnkey deal from a guy I somewhat know and trust -- had done biz with him before -- it dropped into the car and fired up perfectly from day one w/ no futzing. I would not have gone the small-displacement route if I were not working to (POC) class specs AND also trying to avoid the huge expensive of a full engine build. Whether a -4 or -6, a proper rebuild is big bucks, easily twice what I paid for a very strong engine WITH freshly rebuilt Webers.

The class I am running with POC is getting extremely competitive. If I had gone one class higher, it gets even wilder and I'm sure the top runners have well over $50K into their cars and many more years experience than me.

One cool thing about the six conversion is that once the infrastucture is there (tank/mount/lines/etc) you can very simply drop in a bigger, badder engine with minimal effort. Anything between a 2.0 and 3.2 is a quick swap. So when I get ready to run with the big dogs, I can go to a 2.8RSR, 3.0 Motec or whatever I feel like without throwing away anything.

Re. Jake Raby's fours -- I got the strong impression from numerous Pelican threads that they are nice street rod or amateur drag race motors, but he has -zero- road race experience. In the kind of conditions we see here in the desert, the high-power fours seem to have a tough time.

Thanks for the note - and i really like your present set up and the Ravenna Green car you had. Would have bought that car had it been the right time.


any way you slice it, im getting the 2.0, so i guess the big question is how much to properly convert the car from what i have to what i need. And some of the pitfalls to avoid. Also, is it the general consensus that a 6 is more reliabel than a 4? and what of displacement vs torque/horsepower numbers? Can you get more power from the 6 than the 4?

We had a local guy with a Raby motor sucking valve covers at the track (had one for him and that failed immediately too), but he does track the car. Not really sure how he does comparitively.

Sucking valve cover Gaskets or the actual covers? Sounds like not enough crankcase venting to me.

Geoff

I personally believe the sixes are much more reliable in track applications than the fours -- truly competitive and durable race fours are extremely expensive and really don't save you much compared to the sixes IMHO. I didn't serious consider going that route. I think there are quite a lot of people who agree with me, and probably almost as many who don't

The factory sixes put out as much as 225 HP or so (from 2.0's). These were high-compression, high-revving motors...wild cams, Weber46's etc.

I think the early 2.0S is probably a good benchmark and is a setup that "lasts" reasonably well; 160-190HP.

I am assuming HSR will require you to run carbs and conventional dizzy ignition (I have to also).

Valve cover GASKETs - sorry for the ommision! Yeah that was probably it, although he had the breather tank set up....

HSR requirements are pretty "loose" out here, and like you said - if you arent winning then they dont care all that much. I dont plan to win a race with current budget. In racing it is usually the big wallets that bring home the prize - a $10 trophy in HSR. The opportunity to be out three in a competitive environment without the paint swapping and some great drivers like Hurley Heywood is enough for me.

2.0S - whats the difference between that and the stock motor? This one was running great when delivered with the car almost 10 years ago, but i would at least tear down the top end to make sure everything looks ok after sitting so long. Is it just different P&C's, or is the cam different too? Would case machining need to be done?

Original 914-6 motors are the same as 1969 911T spec motors.

The S has different crank (forged & counterweighted), head ports, pistons & cyls, cams, dizzy... a pretty different animal compared to a 2.0T.

I figure you would be way down on power and max speed-in-gear with the T spec motor, compared to the other HSR guys. The T redline would be 1000-2000 rpm's lower (I have heard some of them are twisting up to 8200 rpm's or maybe higher.)

The factory spec for an S could be a little optimistic...
they claim 160
for the T they claim 110..

Although I would add that the real numbers could be more like: S=150, and T=120.

but one is a cammed, higher rpm motor.
brant

How many hours could one expect out of an "s" motor then? Are these parts readily available or pretty custom? Would try to assemble them all at once and in short order....

S spec should still have a pretty good longevity.
Parts should be available, prolly new & used.

Honestly just a new set of Mahle "S" p&c's will probably be north of $2.5 or 3K. I think they are still available but not sure -- EBS would probably be a good place to check. I rarely see used early S cams for sale and have never seen an early S crank available separately (my car still has the factory -6 crank AFAIK). You can obviously get aftermarket cams from Jerry Woods, Webcam etc but again the price might make you fall over...same with a new distributor.

Another option might be to bump the C/R using the stock barrels + some JE pistons; do the ports and valves to S spec; and whatever ignition, induction and exhaust tweaks you can get away with - I am not familiar with HSR rules at all. This could be way cheaper than a full-blown rebuild, if the motor is basically "sound" right now. There might be some ideas in Bruce Anderson's engine book.

Check BA's book. He makes some comments about using a T crank for race motors because they rev faster (no counterweights). If that is not good for longevity then maybe you can get an E crank, it has the counterweights but was not nitrided like the S.

I think JE pistons in your bored out barrels would be the cheapest way to get fresh parts and the desired compression, if you can get some E barrels they were biral so will cool a little better.

You can have your cams reground to S specs or get one of the GE 80, GE100, etc. grinds. I have seen S cams for sale from time to time for not too much money.

Valves and ports can be resized to match the rest of what you're building.

If you're building a race motor, this is what you want:
Aluminum 2.0 case - NEW

These deal with heat much better than the mag cases. Open up the oil passages and you've got a great, cool (temp) racecase!

Here is the entire rules statement on engine requirements from HSR:

"The engine must be of the same type and material as originally provided in the year of
manufacture. Period type engine modifications are permitted. For every car entered, the specific
engine displacement must be disclosed in a certified engine builder’s form."

So really wide open right? Exhaust is free too. Anything available in that time period is permissible. I do believe they let PMO's in as well, although the weber triple throats (proabably 40's?) while sufficient for standard config, may be too small for a race motor?

Im defintely going to get Bruces book. Im not too keen on used parts, will go all new when it happens. That NOS case is very tempting, but would negate the "Free" factor of the complete engine im getting... definitely a nice option. Why no takers on that yet? Too pricey?

should be getting the motor sent within the month

It's a bit pricey.
Most people expect to pay $500 or less for a used aluminum case.
If I were building a small displacement racing motor, I'd jump on it.
It may seem like extra money, but the aluminum is MUCH, MUCH better
than magnesium!

Another thing about the aluminum case...

technically your rules say the case has to be of the same type and material as the car came with.

IE: technically an aluminum case is not legal and you would need a mag case.

I don't think they would bust you, but they could.
It would suck to drop 10grand into an engine and then be told its not legal.

(After having said all of this: My vintage rules say the same thing and I went with an aluminum case anyways because I feel pretty sure they won't care locally....)

your mileage may vary.
brant

Just found this buried deeper down about the case rules:
"914 Porsche must use a 2.5L engine maximum, built on magnesium or 1968 or earlier
aluminum case. The wheels are 7” maximum front and 8” maximum rear. The maximum
bodywork is the 914/6 GT bodywork or the Roadster-style bodywork as described in the
1972 SCCA E-Production Rules. The 914 2.5L is in Class 3K."

So it seems the aluminum case, in this case, would indeed be illegal for my car unless the date on that case was 68 or earlier.... I just sent him a note asking the year on the case. Clean, never used case would certainly be a fantastic starting point and with the added plus of aluminum and heat dissipation.

I am anal retentive enough to be worried about the rules, especially considering I would finish in the top 3 every race!

BA's book will clarify
but off the top of my head:

porsche used aluminum cases from 65-68?
and then they all became mag in 69...
then back to alluminum in 76 turbo 3.0, 77euro 3.0, and 78 us.

hope this helps.
a 2.5 race motor is a different animal from a stock 2.0...
this is going to get expensive!

I'm not clear with that rule and interpretation. Are they saying it has to be a 70 or earlier case regardless of material?...
from your quote I would interpret that aluminum cases from 68 earlier are all legal....

Another thought - could you go forward/newer with mag? (what is to stop you from going to a 2.4Ltr 7R case?)

The aluminum case is good.. but if you go full out.... Absolute top of the line, you would want to build on a magnesium 7R case. I'd love to hear other's input, but I think when its all said and done a 7R case would save you about 40lbs right where it counts.

So the top race motors are built from 7R cases, and a sturdy motor would be from aluminum..

just my 2cents... sorry for changing directions on you, but if your looking at going into a big budget mode and building a motor from scratch you may want to consider this avenue.

given your original intent...
get it running as a 2.0 and spend 15-20 thou on a separate race motor built on a separate case...
then when the motor is paid for its easy to bolt it into an already converted car.

brant

Yeah, wanted to quote them directly. The classes are up to 2.0, then 2.01-2.5, then 2.51-2.99. Everyone goes to the full limit of the class of course. The 2.0 liter challenge is really an active class and is a ton of fun to participate in (having been there with a 4-banger).

As to the clarification, it seems that any case that is dated 1968 or earlier for 2.0 liters is fine to use. If you are right about the dates for the aluminum cases, then that ebay one would most likely be in the right range. Should find out soon about this case in particular.

Your final comment tracks right on with the plan. Conversion costs alone without the motor are going to be several thousand anyway, and considering a mild increase in performance to the 2.0 to have some fun with for a few seasons. Then when im bored with that (as I am with the 2.0 4cyl), move up in motor size.

Whats the consensus on going to 5-lug right away with this mild jump in HP and TQ? Have a good setup right now with koni adjustables and 200lbs springs in the rear. Car is very balanced and tracks well. Will roll fenders and put on the panasports 15x7 with 225/50/15 cometition rubber. Brakes are sufficient at this time. What do you think?

You probably need to decide which of those classes you ultimately want to be in and then decide the case issue from there.

5 bolts...
A whole nother can of worms.

I like em and both of my cars are 5 bolt.
however, they are not necessary.
the argument is that it gives you more wheel choices.
I would add that its largely cosmetic.. but does look good and fits with a -6
braking wise.... its debateable that this is necessary.

It could be argued that the vented weight.. actually slows you down and brakes are not the most important aspect of a 100 - 120hp car.

vented rotors can be added to 4 bolt
lots of options/ just not a necessity.
and remember I like 5 -bolts.

Kinda like the motor question.. it comes down to budget.
brant

I definitely want to go with the 2.0 class. More competition by far.

The brakes question is important to me, and the only reason i would want to go 5 lug is for the wider brake options that come with it. Larger calipers and rotors are needed when you start going faster (or at least have the ability to).

Was not aware that there was a vented rotor available for the stock setup though....

UPDATE ON THE CASE ON EBAY:

Case #: 901.101.101.OR

Mean anything in terms of date? I have zero clue....

I would say it IS and early replacement case.

but that's an educated guess.

914/6s came with an aluminum case, IIRC.....a 68/96 T motor.
The case on Evilbay is one of those....
What's all the to-do about? It's a stock case and thus certainly should be legal for the vintage classes.

Their easy to spot as they are the only ones with the cooling (strengthing?) fins on the bottom.

I met a fella that runs a 914 vintage car with a 2.5L motor built on one of these cases.

Jim Chamber's ex gray car has one also.
90 mm p/cs on a 66 mm crank. There is a LARGE advantage in using Nikasil cyls on any motor.....mo hp & cooling.

JP, I think the 914-6's had the 69T motor, which was magnesium.

This is true. I have 901/38 series, It is a mag case,wish it was alum. so it would not leak as much!!

It wouldn't be the first time I've recalled incorrectly

From the stand point of vintage legality, they would be acceptable as they are pre 69 casting mold....regardless of when they were actually made....the casting # is the key.

BRAKES, 5 bolt set ups:
an A or S caliper is an easy conversion.
figure maybe a grand for a complete conversion.

there are bigger combinations out there but below 140hp it may not be necessary. (You can actually get a stock brake set up to handle great on the track and the fastest 914/4 -200hp I know of only runs S calipers with huge slicks and hundreds of pounds of down force)

what specifics do you want to know.
brant

im relatively familiar with the upgrade posibilities available for 5 lug, and to date have been pretty impressed with my stock setup (19mm upgrade) and the right pads for what im doing. I can brake later than most other cars in my advanced run group (im going slower too)

What are the advantages of going with a stock oil tank? Why not get a remote tank (ala circle track style) and mount up front where my gas tank used to be? Is there anything inherently better about the stock location and tank?