How many hours should I allow for this project?

Are there any tips to help or prevent alignment loss?

Thanks.


KT

wheel bearings. CAKE 20 min a side tops. (getting new rotors? 4lug? or do you have mueller hubs???)

bushings. I just did lagunero's weltmeister Aarm bushings. Spiral groove each with a dremel, and make a resevoir at each end (just a line running complete around the ID) BUY the crazy gorilla Jizz ™ bushing lube they reccomend and go to town.

AA

Bruce (BCinSC) and I did one front bearing on his 1.7L in 2.5 hours. Neither of us have much experience working on cars. But hey, one rear bearing on my car took a week, so I'm getting better and collecting more tools.

Also, I'm doing the rear bushings.

I'll be deleting the brake dust shields. Stock rotors going back on.


KT

going with what bushings?

welts?
Elephant poly bronze
mueller?
foley graphite ones

Weltus...

QUOTE (trekkor @ Nov 3 2005, 05:49 PM)

Weltus...

im content with them. they have 2 part numbers and youll figure out wich are front a arms and which are rear of the a arms.

Mine had relatively small stiction to them.... and move quite freely.
When i did lagunero's.. they are pretty sticky and take some force to get the a arm to move in a direction. I hope they loosen up.


they are a noticeable difference in handling.....but the hot shit is muellers bearings.....no Stiction compared to a rubber/poly/graphite/polybronze bushing....

the choice is yours.

IMO....flame away...Meuller or Elephant if you want to hold alignment...and not have striction. Anything else is a waste of time & money.....but them plastic fuckers are cheep...and..You'll have the fun of doing it again in a couple years.
Not that I have strong opinions about this........

With all the dis/assembly, I'd put it at 2 hours per corner, plus some more if you have fitting issues.

Its easiest if you drop the entire front subassembly.

Give up hope you'll maintain alignment after you see just how much the bushing rubber flows from one side to the other.

And don't forget to bring the

QUOTE (trekkor @ Nov 3 2005, 05:31 PM)

How many hours should I allow for this project? Are there any tips to help or prevent alignment loss? Thanks. KT

if ya' need assistance on the fronts, i'm in Hercules and can help do the front bearings and races in about half and hour. U do the dirty work, of course.... FYI, I like Peets coffee.

the offer is out there....

Cheers,
Roger

These are the ones that Rich at HPH recommends.

I trust his judgement.


KT

The plastic ones don't loosen up or wear in unfortunately.
their life cycle is: medium sticktion, more sticktion, stuck...

I still put them into my street car, because the price is hard to beat!

put zerks on all 4 corners.
I have 2 zerks on each corner.
propper fit, zerks, and frequent lubing make a difference.

back when I didn't have zerks it was a once a year requirement to take all the suspension off and "Rebuild" each corner.... now with zerks I have only had to do that once..... and on the street car I have never had to do it!

brant

I like the zerk idea...a lot.

thanks.


KT

Zirc fittings are mas gut.

Also, with the zerks Idea...
obviously I'm not pumping gorilla stuff through a grease gun.

I've found mobil one red grease to be just fine.
The zerks Idea gives up on the super-slippery therory and resorts to good ole american volume!

make sure you channel the inside (not outside) of the bushing and drill a hole where the zerk goes so that the grease can get to the I.D.

on mine, I found zerks that extended part way into the plastic bushing so as to anchor it and make sure the bushing didn't turn on the O.D. and the hole I created to facilitate this.

brant

Brant, do you have any pics of this fantastic mod?

Sounds very good.


KT

I would say that if you are taking off the original rubber bushings....plan to spend 3-4hrs per corner...

You gotta burn off the rubber, then clean clean clean until you have a smooth shaft to put the plastic bushing on.

DO THE ZERK FITTINGS!!!

The article is on pelicans web site.

Good luck.
DWD (do the ball joints, bearings, tie rods while your there)

Rich

A nice clean surface is a must. The harder it is to put in the bushings, the harder it will be to move your suspension.

it took me 20 min a corner to get old bushings out. no torch required just good ole muscle and channel lock pliers.

To me, if you going to go through the trouble...do it right the first time and just install a set of the rollerbearings.

I know of two people who have over 20 years of racing experience that claim they dropped 1-2 secs off there track time just by installing the front rollerbearings.

Just the idea of zerk fittings makes me

-Britain

I would agree, BUT...

After several rainy outings...dont you worry about the water that has penetrated the roller bearing???

I would take it apart every season to repack them....and that would defeat the purpose...

With the Zerk fitting,,,I just add more grease after the rain...

Rich

Yes, a good cleaning will be in order.

I currently have zero complaints about the performance of my car on any level

So...this is an upgrade from the old rubber bushings and front wheel bearings of unknown age.

Now to find the time


KT

i like zirks...the jeep had them....more grease in, less worries. i got tired of the squeak...so i just bought a grease gun and went to town.

b

QUOTE (r_towle @ Nov 3 2005, 10:20 PM)

I would agree, BUT... After several rainy outings...dont you worry about the water that has penetrated the roller bearing??? I would take it apart every season to repack them....and that would defeat the purpose... With the Zerk fitting,,,I just add more grease after the rain... Rich

This has been brought up before. You are supposed to use marine grade grease when you install the rollerbearings. If the grease can stay on your trailer forever when it is taken in an out of the lake and sits in the sun all day with out issues, then how would it be a problem on the front suspension locations? The kit also comes with o-rings. So unless you are driving in a foot of salty water, I don't see it being a problem.

I just don't understand the motivation of spending all that time to dissassembly your suspension, clean it all up, install zerk fittings, etc. for the urethane bushings which squeak and don't fix the issue which is friction. The polybronze and the urethane bushing oval and then you loose all effective movement...just a bandaid.

If you are building a serious car, might as well do it right the first time. I have seen this first hand too many times.

-Britain

How much are the roller bearings, again?

Thanks,


KT

QUOTE (r_towle @ Nov 3 2005, 09:20 PM)

After several rainy outings...dont you worry about the water that has penetrated the roller bearing???

No.
They are well sealed & packed with greese.
Zerks are not an option.

Trekkor:
If you have no complaints, why change?

400 bucks an end for Meullers, less for Elephant. Not cheep or sexy, but they make your suspension work. You want sexy, buy a spoiler.

QUOTE

If you have no complaints, why change?

DWD


KT

Support our members, buy roller bearings. I predict.... a marked increase in road feel and smoothy over da bumpy.

I am not suggesting what you should do to your car Trekkor...nor am I saying that you are doing it wrong. I am merely stating my opinion about the quality of the rollerbearings and the improvements that can be gained by having them.

I agree, support our members.

-Britain

BTW, what does DWD mean?

Dirk Wright Disorder...this guy decided that while he was in there, he might as well do this too...and pretty soon his car was in a bizillion pieces.....

I like the roller bearings.... don't get me wrong
but mike mueller; I think you still owe me my 1.5 seconds


lol.

I haven't found the roller bearings to be 2 seconds faster.
I like them.
I think they are the top tier
I think the car is smoother, and more comfortable.
but I don't believe in the 2 second theory.


Trekkor,
unfortunately I don't have any install or progress pictures on this one.. Just take the time to make everything fit.
also you don't want them too loose!
I honed out the inside of the bushing to make my fronts of closer tolerance (without being too loose)

it became a labour intensive installation for me, because I hand honed each of the 8 bushings.

also on the rear, you do not want the bushing to stick out past the pivot shaft. What I mean by this is that when the rear suspension is installed, the shaft should be hitting the console wings and the bushing should not at all. To achieve this I had to sand off the outward face of the rear bushings some.

to answer your original question.
it took me hours for each of the 8 bushings.
because I took so much time grouving and fitting and worrying about the tolerances.

you could slam them in there in a couple of hours and bolt everything together, but if you take the time to get the fittment right its a bigger job.

you may want to do one wheel at a time, or one axle at a time and plan a couple of days.

brant


sorry.
brant

QUOTE (brant @ Nov 4 2005, 08:29 AM)

I like the roller bearings.... don't get me wrong but mike mueller; I think you still owe me my 1.5 seconds lol. I haven't found the roller bearings to be 2 seconds faster. I like them. I think they are the top tier I think the car is smoother, and more comfortable. but I don't believe in the 2 second theory. sorry. brant

I never made that claim

the car one car in question that dropped his times had a love for the berms on the inside of the track, he'd routinly run over them getting just that side airborne, with the roller bearings he'd run over the same berms and "glide" over them without upsetting the car drasticly...

this could be an extreame case with incorrectly installed plastic bushings previously installed....

KT, you've got a PM headed your direction...

Mike,

I in no way was trying to put you on the spot.
I LOVE your product.

I was making the statement in a joking matter.
but also wanted to quash any rumor...

(or maybe I'm just disappointed in myself, the driver for not being faster)

please don't take my statement as any kind of insult or dissatisfaction. I absolutely think the roller bearings are absolutely the best available option. And I thankyou for spending your own personal money to bring them to market and at a fair price.

by the way, I'm going to disassemble mine this winter and repack them completely. It may not be necessary, but I want to see if there is any wear and I also believe that good car prep includes full maintenance.

(I'll get pictures when I get to this)

brant

Thanks all.

I'll shoot some pics as well.


KT

Hey Trekkor,

If you do go ahead with the install of the rollerbearings, I have an installation tool that Brad had made and makes the job a whole lot easier. Remind me when you get it close and I will look for it in the pile of boxes in the garage.

-Britain

I agree with JP. The only reason I bought the Welts was because of the price AND that I was installing used 911 arms on my 914. I figured that the Welts would be at the least, an improvement compared to the worn originals. After further reading on the subject I realized that due to the irregularities in the A arm shaft, I may in fact be taking a step backwards by using these Welt bushings! Will I be able to notice? Will they cause undue stress on my new Koni Yellows? I'll soon find out. I'll be replacing the bushings with Mueller bearings as soon as I know my car runs
Although Trekkor is now on track, I added this for those who will someday do a search on the matter.

QUOTE (lagunero @ Nov 4 2005, 02:08 PM)

I agree with JP. The only reason I bought the Welts was because of the price AND that I was installing used 911 arms on my 914. I figured that the Welts would be at the least, an improvement compared to the worn originals. After further reading on the subject I realized that due to the irregularities in the A arm shaft, I may in fact be taking a step backwards by using these Welt bushings! Will I be able to notice? Will they cause undue stress on my new Koni Yellows? I'll soon find out. I'll be replacing the bushings with Mueller bearings as soon as I know my car runs Although Trekkor is now on track, I added this for those who will someday do a search on the matter.

the plastic bushing can work if installed correctly, Racer Chris of CFR/Tangerine Racing has come up with a slick method......SmartRacing also has a detailed instruction sheet for properly installing the plastic bushings.....

the roller bearings do work pretty damn slick, but i want people to buy them 'cause they "need" them or really want them, not just 'cause they were told to run 'em.

the Elephant bushings work as well, I'm just biased a little

QUOTE (lagunero @ Nov 4 2005, 02:08 PM)

I agree with JP. The only reason I bought the Welts was because of the price AND that I was installing used 911 arms on my 914. I figured that the Welts would be at the least, an improvement compared to the worn originals. After further reading on the subject I realized that due to the irregularities in the A arm shaft, I may in fact be taking a step backwards by using these Welt bushings! Will I be able to notice? Will they cause undue stress on my new Koni Yellows? I'll soon find out. I'll be replacing the bushings with Mueller bearings as soon as I know my car runs Although Trekkor is now on track, I added this for those who will someday do a search on the matter.

I doubt you'll be taking a step backwards.
I guess the answer to that depends upon the criteria you want, and since you mention the Koni Yellows, I'm guessing your criteria is track oriented.

MANY stock bushings are so shot, that they deflect a GREAT amount under load. When you pull your torsion bars out and find a rusty spot on them, that is a good sign that your bushings have sagged enough to allow the bar to drag metal to metal under load. The metal to metal contact allowed the protective paint to wear through and for surface rust to start.

This is especially true when people put bigger torsion bars into stock bushings.

So from the perspective of having a bushing that keeps metal to metal contact from Occuring, I seriously doubt that you are taking a step backwards.

if your stock bushings were in wonderful shape and already were preventing metal to metal contact, then yes you could be taking a step backwards in terms of ride comfort.

However, you still are not taking a step backwards in terms of limiting suspension deflection under performance applications.

The plastic bushings can be a bear to install correctly.
I already mentioned that I Annually had to tear my suspension apart to lubricate them. I finally figured out after 7 tear downs that the zerk fittings and regular grease application would save me a lot of work.

The roller bearings are GREAT! But if they are outside of a person's budget then the poly bushings can be a good compromise and definitely better than shot rubber (if it is shot and allowing metal to metal contact by the torsion bar)

brant