I really wouldnt mind putting a bigger front sway bar on my car, but since im plowing from understeer around town, im not really worrying about it..

BUT I am not rather liking the 350 or 500 I'd have to spend to get a good bar on my car.

I currently have a stock bar up front, and 22mm T bars (ya, thats my kicker up front...)

I was thinking that one of these coleman bars would work..



They have the bar thickness from 3/4in to 1 1/2 in...

Bar is 37.5 in long...

Could it work?

I know there will be fabrication involved (im cool with that.. only means more fun..)

http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog/index...&sort=2a&page=1

Also, they have Just the bars at different lengths. But only at 1 1/4 thickness. Lengths from 32" to 43" and .125, .188, and .25 wall (whatever that means)

Bars by themselves for 110 bucks.


Any thoughts??

check out slugmika's blog. he has a custom swaybar also.

the wall thickness will affect stiffness.... do a little research on what standard porsche bars are... guessing pretty soft compared to nascars.....

im not sure what the length of a stock bar is.....

i say go for it....!

Putting a bigger bar up front is not going to help your understeer. What size rear springs do you run and do you run a rear bar?
You either need to go down in T bar size or up your rear spring rate.
Bigger front bar will only make it worse at this point.

QUOTE

Also, they have Just the bars at different lengths. But only at 1 1/4 thickness. Lengths from 32" to 43" and .125, .188, and .25 wall (whatever that means)

means they are hollow just like the sm@rtracing bars ....

with a little bit of thought, you could be running the same size bar as Trekkor

I saw his bar as well.

I sent him a message, maybe he'll give me some info.


Anyone have a stock front sway bar that they can measure as far as length?

Thanks!

Andrew

As per my problem of understeer, Yes, I know.

But I currently have 180's on the rear with no sway bar in my v8.

I want to put a rear sway bar (I have one ready to go in)
And I want to put 225 or stiffer springs in the back as well.

Also I can Easily make this bar adjustable... Adjusting it for autox and track driving.


Thanks for your comments...

Andrew

Stock bar is right at 40 inches in length.

Thanks dan!

That gives me one step closer.

PM sent

PM recieved...

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Dec 10 2005, 08:25 PM)

I really wouldnt mind putting a bigger front sway bar on my car, but since im plowing from understeer around town, im not really worrying about it.. BUT I am not rather liking the 350 or 500 I'd have to spend to get a good bar on my car. I currently have a stock bar up front, and 22mm T bars (ya, thats my kicker up front...) I was thinking that one of these coleman bars would work.. They have the bar thickness from 3/4in to 1 1/2 in... Bar is 37.5 in long... Could it work? I know there will be fabrication involved (im cool with that.. only means more fun..) http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog/index...&sort=2a&page=1 Also, they have Just the bars at different lengths. But only at 1 1/4 thickness. Lengths from 32" to 43" and .125, .188, and .25 wall (whatever that means) Bars by themselves for 110 bucks. Any thoughts??

if you do upgrade your front bar, could i call first dibs on the old bar?

Already dibbed out... lol

Gona be traded for a front windshield...

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Dec 10 2005, 11:41 PM)

Already dibbed out... lol Gona be traded for a front windshield...

Darn o wells...one less item to do on the list. I'm gonna sell the 14 anyways once i get her looking sweet n running nice

I've used this type of bar for my car. I got the parts from Speedway Engineering. Decent prices.

I wish they made the bars with square end mounts instead of splined ones

This style of bar is really common on race cars. You can get many different end sizes as well as hollow and solid bars. They offer many different styles of arms. Get the aluminum, the steel stuff weighs a ton. It is something like .750 thick steel bar stock.

I scored a 3/4 bar off ebay for 4 dollars and the arms were 25$. Watch the Nascar auctions on ebay during the off season for great deals. I don't remember the length on mine but it uses the bigger splined ends so it could go up to at least 1 1/8 in diameter before it would start getting bigger than the splines.

www.1speedway.com list all the specs on their stuff as well as listing torsional rating charts.

I think you need to go with the 42" length that they offer. I'll have to look at my bar. it you want I'll see if it will work on your application and give you a really good deal.

Groot, would you mind sending some pics if you have any to me? Thanks!
adalen@pacbell.net

Brett, your not going to use the bar? IF not (and you think I could get it to work) I'd certainly be intersted.

LET me know.

Thanks guys!
Andrew

my setup will use bars less than 20inches long so I probably won't use it. Let me measure it for you this week and see if it will work in your application.

Do you have a welder? You will need to reinforce the mounting points on the body with Engmans kit and you will have to fab up a way to attach the pillow blocks to the chassis, but all that is little details.

Your not afraid of a little fab work are yah

Nope, and im asking santa for a Miller (or a lincon) mig /w gas for christmas


Fab just means more fun!

Whatever you got I'll make work, I'll be making a custom bar for the front, and the rear..

Thanks!

Andrew.

Here's a pic... pretty dirty and partially diassembled.

Funny thing.... one of Eric's crew members accused me of stealing this idea from Eric. But, Nascar's been doing it the way for years and I hadn't even seen Eric's car until the Runoffs.

Things I would/will change... the lever arm is seriously heavy. I'll replace it eventually with a lighter piece that allows me to put the link in double shear instead of single shear.

What was the length of the sway bar you used?

What was the diameter?

Looks good to me! Thanks for the picture and the advice! I might use one of the aluminum arms that coleman has.

You will only make your car worse if you got to a bigger front bar. You should drop back to a stock sized or slightly larger torsion bar. 22mm bars are too big for a street car. A 19mm sway bar and stock T-bars is very manageable on the street.

You could take some steel arms and cut the spines off the end. Then drill four holes in each corner and bolt some 1/8 inch plate on either side to mount the end link in shear.

Andrew I would figure out what you want for this car. If you want a really potent street/weekend track warrior then I would plan on using a bar that goes up to 1 1/8 but if you aren't looking at playing with all the suspension settings and are looking for a set it and forget it, I would stick to something proven. These type bars can go up to 2+inches in diameter.

something just occured to me. When I was running 180lb rear springs and a 23mm front bar it always ran it in the middle. any more and it was too strong and the car would push in tight turns. The problem with the Weltmeister bar is the end links don't have enough adjustment when the car is lowered. they are too long and you have to cut them off and shorten them.

Check this out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/nascar-race...1QQcmdZViewItem
I have bought from this guy before

QUOTE (Brett W @ Dec 11 2005, 04:50 PM)

You could take some steel arms and cut the spines off the end. Then drill four holes in each corner and bolt some 1/8 inch plate on either side to mount the end link in shear.

Could you maybe draw a picture of what you mean? I think I've got the idea but the more I look at it the more confused I'm getting.

if you lower your car with the a-arms parallel to the ground and you bring the sway bar adjuster back to the middle of its mounting position, you will have the arms pointing up and there will be a bunch of preload on the the sway bar. What you have to do it cut the threads off the weltmeister endlink and retap some more of the shaft until you can get all of the preload out of the sway bar.

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Dec 11 2005, 02:11 PM)

What was the diameter?

quit being lazy

don't just go and copy 100% since his application/car is way different than yours....go to the sm@rtracing website and speedway and read the specs on the swaybars...

with about 10 minutes of reading from both sites you could get the exact specs of Trekkors bar or very, very similar ...then decide if you need to go up or down in bar sizes.....

QUOTE

jd74914 Posted on Dec 11 2005, 03:46 PM QUOTE (Brett W @ Dec 11 2005, 04:50 PM) Could you maybe draw a picture of what you mean? I think I've got the idea but the more I look at it the more confused I'm getting.

maybe you shouldn't be trying to make your own bar, it is a very critical component and can lead to serious injury/death

QUOTE (Brett W @ Dec 11 2005, 06:28 PM)

if you lower your car with the a-arms parallel to the ground and you bring the sway bar adjuster back to the middle of its mounting position, you will have the arms pointing up and there will be a bunch of preload on the the sway bar. What you have to do it cut the threads off the weltmeister endlink and retap some more of the shaft until you can get all of the preload out of the sway bar.

damn that was dumb.

thanks mike. i wouldn't trust my welding to build the droplinks anyways

i thought he meant cut the actual bar and i was trying to figure out why anyone would want to do that. I didn't realize that he was referring to the welt's lack of adjustability on a severely lowered car

QUOTE (jd74914 @ Dec 11 2005, 07:36 PM)

QUOTE (Brett W @ Dec 11 2005, 06:28 PM) if you lower your car with the a-arms parallel to the ground and you bring the sway bar adjuster back to the middle of its mounting position, you will have the arms pointing up and there will be a bunch of preload on the the sway bar.  What you have to do it cut the threads off the weltmeister endlink and retap some more of the shaft until you can get all of the preload out of the sway bar. damn that was dumb. thanks mike. i wouldn't trust my welding to build the droplinks anyways i thought he meant cut the actual bar and i was trying to figure out why anyone would want to do that. I didn't realize that he was referring to the welt's lack of adjustability on a severely lowered car

taretts have the same problem. droplinks are set up for a 911. no big deal to have shortened.

Car will be dedicated autox and track car. With a few jaunts to and from school and work.

Simply, the best street rod I can make in a Taco Bell managers budjget... (which happens to be slightly above minimum wage... )

I am having serious issues with my front end not sticking. and the only way my front end will stick is with about 1/4 throttle (read in a v8, a LOT of power... ie throtle oversteer) True this is on crappy kumho 711's, but I have victoracers, hoosiers, and goodyear slicks avalible to me.

I think it has something to do with my crappy STOCK front sway bar (with no adjustment) and my even crappyer FACTORY bushings.

Call me crazy, but I have new bushings for the whole car, and I would like to get a sway bar that I can adjust for factory (whatever lbs that is) to 100lbs more. (ie from track to autox)

On the track, my current setup stuck pretty good, but on the autox course, (as you can see from my video's), its a handful to get to stick, and requires a lot of "driving" effort.

I would like to run 225 rear springs with a factory or larger rear bar (larger if I can make some kind of custom bar that would fit, that would ALSO be adjustable. I am considering adjustable arms for the factory bar..

In essence, I am planning on buying either colemans sway bar stuff, in their smallest diameter or thickness sway bar; or Bretts bar and coleman arms, or both even.

Adjustablility is something I need, and at this point, I have none of.

IM not going with a custom bar up front for more lb rate, but for adjustability, and for upgrades down the road.

andrew

You really should run more rear spring. Then you can put the nice front bar to good use. Are you planning on a cage or any other kind of chassis stiffening?

Back in the day I actually took a stock sway bar and cut 1 inch out of the arms. Then I welded it back together. Don't know how much it helped but in theory it should have made a difference.

What do you have for shocks? Have you moved the battery to the front trunk?

My bar should give you the necessary adjustment. let me get you a length and stuff later on this week. I have two more exams that I need to worry about. then I'll be free.

Cool stuff.

I have Engman long kit in a box, and I'll be doing some tube reinforcements as well, so the chassi will be plenty strong.

What spring rate are you thinking I should run? 250? 275?

I have Koni yellows for the rear in a box, and koni reds up front.

Battery is in stock location. I dont have room up front with my rad. (very big radiator)

Send me an email when you get the details.

Thanks!

Andrew

I use a standard length 37.5" bar. It's 7/8" diameter, but my motion ratios and front weight bias is mucho different than yours. If you're going down this path, I certainly wouldn't use the stock lever arms. You should also pay particular attention to how the stabilizer bar mounts to the body. In my case I used ball bearings and it doesn't bind like poly can.

From what you're describing you need less front bar, more rear bar or more front tire to get your car to turn. The downside to more rear bar is you'll lose traction. Have you played with tire pressures?

I definately need more front tire...

My tires are 225 45 17 kumho 711's. (eek gawds) on the front, and 255 40 17 kumho 711's on the back.
At the autox it was like skating on ice..

I have hoosiers, victoracers, and can get goodyear slicks... So tires are not a problem.. Its adjustability.

I have not messed with tire pressures much, but I have increased the rear and lowered the front at the autox to attempt to get more stick.

Im assuming when you say stock lever arms that you mean stock 914 lever arms.

I was thinking of using
one of those sway arms. cut to length with holes drilled.

Maybe one of these
modified wider to fit on a slimmed down arm.

Attached to http://www.colemanracing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=49_1024&products_id=4707://http://www.colemanracing.com/catalo... posted image'>://http://www.colemanracing.com/catalo... image'>

Attached to

Some things I can get used.

Thoughts?

Those pieces will make a nice adjustable stabilizer bar... but, you still have to mount it to your chassis. Roller bearings or ball bearings are the way to go, as long as you keep them aligned. I got mine from McMaster Carr or some place like that.

But.... you need to work with your tire pressures first. You talk about your car skating around, but under what circumstances and which end? Did you get heat in the tires? Were they new? Each adjustment tweaks a slightly different part of the car's handling and if you're tweaking bars, when you should be tweaking pressures or dampers you'll only get frustrated. You're building a knowledge base about your car and the first place to start is the tire pressures and alignment.

With a V8 and your tire sizes, I don't expect that you need more front tire. Just nail down some things (like your tires, bars and springs) and don't mess with them until you get your baseline, then build from there.

Andrew, try this first.

Stock front bar
Camber, as much negative as you can get, equally on both sides
Caster, same as above
Toe start with 1/8, drive the car and see how it feels
Rear Toe, staight at zero or maybe a little toe out 3/32-1/16 (yeah I know, makes the ass loose)

Set tire pressures equal, drive, drop front pressures to 10psi less than the rears, soften front shocks as well. Drive again and compare.

Like Kevin says you can't go somewhere without knowing where you started from. You need a base line first. Track setups and autocross setups will be dramatically different.

You should also look to go up to at least 200lbs springs, but you need to make sure you shocks can handle higher rate springs. Maybe as high as 250s.

I have to agree with Kevin and Brett. I think you need to start with the basics. I have never done any 914 chassis tuning, but start with a benchmark perhaps like was recommended. At first glance, it does seem to me that you will need the stiffer rear springs regardless. You'll need a place to test, a setup sheet, and a plan. Try all the easy stuff first like tire pressures (A tire pyrometer would be nice). Unless your setup is way off, you'll be surprised at how much diffference this can make. Another clue, is when changes go numb (no change noticed), then it is very likely something else. FWIW.

Andys

I know my setup is way off. I gave myself a baseline, and played with tire pressures at 2 autox's and at the wcc on the exact same setup. I was (and am) not impressed.

I've been running this setup for a year, and I know I need it stiffer on the front, and Much stiffer on the rear if I have any plans to get good times at auto's.

I have played with camber, and am generally not impressed at all with the handling of the car at anything under 45mph (general autox speed) as it requires way more throttle than I am willing to give it to make it stick.

I know I need a baseline. But I dont want to run my stock front sway bar, and 180 rear springs as a baseline! Thats just absurd. It leaves me No force tuning at all, just camber, caster and ride hight.

I need a custom bar up front so that if with 250 lb springs on the back(which I think I want to try 225's right now), and a stock rear sway bar, I for some reason need less spring rate up front, I can back it down with a simple adjustment.

My bar that I want to make will have less spring rate than stock to close to 22mm bar.

Shocks also should be able to handle the buisness on the back, they are almost new koni yellows.

Camber on the front is as much as I can get equally.
Caster I rather dont remember.
Toe is at zero all the way around.

I dont have time to drive it right now or make adjustments. Im in finals week.. and I'll be working on the engine next week, and also the body.

Brett, let me know about that bar, I think I will bid on the one on ebay as well though. (good to keep my options open)

Thanks all.

Andrew

Heres a pic of the configuration at the wcc.

I think I could have used more throttle..

Listen if the car is pushing in your current setup with the stock front swaybar, you will not gain anything with the bigger bar. You will need to run the torsional calculations for each bar (stock and custom) I would add the heavy springs first and drive it again to see how close the car is to balanced with the heavy torsion bars up front.

Yes the Konis will handle the spring rate increase. Reset your toe with the settings I recommended it will turn in much better. What is the condition of your tires? If they are shot you will never get a decent idea of what is going on.

Let me get through with exams on Wed and I'll get you the info on that bar.

Dude,

Have it your way, we're just trying to help.....

There are many things incorrect or mixed up about your statements.

First off, how do you know your setup's way off? What makes you think you need it stiffer in the front and rear to get better times? Softer setups make more mechanical grip, but they may not transition as well.

Your car requires more throttle to stick? Which end, mid-corner, exit or entry? I don't understand this statement, to be honest.

"I need a custom bar up front so that if with 250 lb springs on the back(which I think I want to try 225's right now), and a stock rear sway bar, I for some reason need less spring rate up front, I can back it down with a simple adjustment.

My bar that I want to make will have less spring rate than stock to close to 22mm bar."
The stabilizer bar has nothing to do with spring rate. You cannot make a simple adjustment to reduce spring rate, unless you swap torsion bars.

BTW, my "custom" stabilizer bar has nearly the same rate as the stock bar at the setting I've settled on for most tracks.

QUOTE

Your car requires more throttle to stick? Which end, mid-corner, exit or entry? I don't understand this statement, to be honest.

At entry. I will just understeer if I try to take a general corner. I would need to start the corner wide, and grab the throttle early so that I can plant the rear end, and get the front to stick.

My video shows it in my sig.

Its also extremely prevelant in street driving.

Sorry, I dont mean to be nit picky or anything. I'll try your settings, and report back my findings.

Thanks!

Andrew

not a techie guru, but the cars do turn better under power..easiest way to go off track is to tip toe through a corner coasting, it was always easier to drive accelerating through a turn.

flame a way..

QUOTE (Andyrew @ Dec 13 2005, 07:25 AM)

At entry. I will just understeer if I try to take a general corner. I would need to start the corner wide, and grab the throttle early so that I can plant the rear end, and get the front to stick.

Good info, Andrew....

Turn-in understeer. I'm assuming that a judicious amount of throttle is required, but not too much, right? Have you tried trailing braking to get it to turn? That can keep more load on the front tires and that will help you turn.

More front bar will hurt this condition. Try disconnecting the stock bar for one fun run and see how it goes. If that doesn't help you've got other issues at work.

Trailing arm braking, and engine braking generally do it really well. (the v8 really drags hard at 5k..) But it gets really squirmy because the tires just dont grip to well.. Therefore my point is that its taking a lot of driving to get the car around the course.. In an autox I should be focusing on my line and not how I can get the damn car to turn for each corner...

I agree, more rear force or less force is needed.

But I could also use less bar... (which, in my opinion is where an adjustable bar can come into play.. I could build a bar that could adjust for Less than stock, at the min level, and up to be simular to stock.

I want to run a rear bar.. I have it with new bushings. Brad told me its roughly equivilant to 40lbs of spring rate, so Im going to assume its true. Running a rear bar, and 180s will net me 220. That in itself might not be enough so Im thinking of matching that with 225lb springs.

Im currently making a spreadsheet to figure out the spring rate equilvilent to the factory front bar with a 5.5 in stock arm. Assuming that the factory bar is 15mm, or.6in. And giving myself a baseline that it should be between 50 and 100 lbs.

I'll report back in a bit with my findings...

Andrew