Hey all, Bob aka hotdgr, is driving a car he purchased in Monterey CA to his home in Tampa FL. He stayed with us last night and headed east from Phoenix this morning.

I just got off the phone with him, and he broke down out side Benson Arizona.

Here is his problem. Stock 1.7L with D-jet. Turns the key and no fuel pump sound and the starter does not crank. Bob is a FAA licensed airplane mechanic and says that he went through all the connections, checked the fuses, checked and replace some relays. Right now he is stumped. I told him I would post here and ask for input, or you can call his cell phone directly and talk with him at: 813-610-0056.

Bob is a real nice guy, lets do what we can to help him get back on the road. New Mexico, Texas teeners, and points east, keep up with his travels and hook up with him for eats or offer any assistance he may need.

Looks like Benson is East of Tucon. Anyone in the area?

just talked to Bob. Jeff B. or someone that is good with the wiring please give Bob a call. I think his relay board is failing. He may need to jumper the starter switch and fuel pump.

Bob has a hotel and a Dennys. His car is in the local repair garage lot. So he's ok for now. He's not on the side of the road anyway.

tell him to somehow ground the pin on the relay board like this...



there is a group of four wires that power the ECU. well one is the ground to turn the fuel pump on...

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| |

you want to ground the lower left pin to the ground of the car....

this should make the pump run when the key is turned.

b

It's hard to test the connections by yourself. but does the starter switch wiring go through the relay board? I think it does. If that's the case, I think he can jumper past the board in a pinch but he will needto get hooked up with a replacement board along the way. Anyone on his route have parts?

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Jan 18 2006, 06:50 PM)

tell him to somehow ground the pin on the relay board like this... there is a group of four wires that power the ECU. well one is the ground to turn the fuel pump on... | | | | you want to ground the lower left pin to the ground of the car.... this should make the pump run when the key is turned. b

Ok, but what about the key? engine won't crank either.

well i usually have problems that come in pairs....could his starter be on the way out?

what if he push-starts it?

thats what i had to do for a week or three....

b

when my 1.7 is acting weird i just pull the body ground off and put it back on and it magicly fixes it self

i dont know whats wrong but about 80% of the time that fixes it

not my head lights go up and down about 2 months ago they didnt, then i pulled the ground and now the do

but seriously before when they thing wouldnt crank or anthing i did that and then it worked

No fuel pump AND no crank? Thank kinda sounds like the ignition switch - or the power supply to it.

The starter does go through the relay board but it is just passed through. The relay board is just a connector.

i have two ground straps for redundancy...

one on the tranny and one on the engine....

but I guess it wouldnt hurt trying that....what does he have to lose?

maybe the relay is shot?

b

QUOTE (swl @ Jan 18 2006, 07:00 PM)

No fuel pump AND no crank? Thank kinda sounds like the ignition switch - or the power supply to it. The starter does go through the relay board but it is just passed through. The relay board is just a connector.

Dash lights, alt & oil, but no crank and no fuel pump.

when i picked my car up north of seattle and drove it here to phoenix... twice at gas stations it decided it wasnt going to start. I was not happy. I push started it both times. Its never happened since and I am pretty sure it was just that the starter was too hot after driving for hours and hours and hours.

now that i think of it, i'm sure he's probably let it cool off enough, jump that connection and try to start it?

isnt there a ignition fuse on the relay board....?

it sounds like a ignition switch deal....

b

If your really good with wiring call 813-610-0056. Maybe you can walk Bob through the short.

I remember reading a couple years ago about ignition switch failures...maybe he should try to hotwire it

i can be there in 2 hours... i have an entire wiring harness, a relay board that works (but is cracking...) and any tools you could ever need to fix whatever is wrong.....

just left a message for him. I'm up for a road trip. anyone else want to go try and fix it if he calls? I can give it a good 3 hours of tinkering. 4 hours of sleep before work tomorrow = no problem

lets do this....

i'll get him going, snufplugis(sp) can you meet him where you are?

should i call him?

b

how about other switched items - headlight motors? If you have a meter you can check for 12 volts at the coil - it is pretty much a straight run from the ignition switch.

QUOTE (seanery @ Jan 18 2006, 07:12 PM)

I remember reading a couple years ago about ignition switch failures...maybe he should try to hotwire it

Ya, I told him in a pinch he could run a jumper wire from the coil to the pump but that's not getting him a starter. I'm firing up my old Think Pad. I think I have a wiring diagram I may be able to print and fax to his hotel.

I called him.

He has a multimeter...that is a blessing

He is gonna check to make sure he has 12 volts at the coil

He said he has tried switching all the relays and he cant get the fuel pump going, but when he jumpers it he can get it going...so that is that plan for that problem...

Now, the non start issue...
he is looking for the ground strap...
and he will check the yellow wire coming from the ignition switch to see that he has 12 volts in the start position...

If he does not, he has wire with him and will make a jump circuit from that pole on the starter to touch the positive pole on the battery...

So worst case, he has a bad ignition switch and a flaky relay board...
If that is the case, he will jumper the fuel pump, and hotwire the starter and get home..

Rich

if he's getting a oil and gen lights, his -ON- position on the switch works....

well, theres also a contact for lights, etc.....its a chance those could work too or not. I've BTDT...in rainy weather w/o wipers was NOT GOOD.

b

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Jan 18 2006, 08:02 PM)

QUOTE (swl @ Jan 18 2006, 07:00 PM) No fuel pump AND no crank?  Thank kinda sounds like the ignition switch - or the power supply to it. The starter does go through the relay board but it is just passed through.  The relay board is just a connector. Dash lights, alt & oil, but no crank and no fuel pump.

They could very well be mutually exclusive. Hot start after heat soak (no starter engagement) AND a fuel delivery problem. In fact, the fuel delivery issue could be vapor lock. I wouldn't automatically assume it's the ignition switch. It does happen, but it's not as common as many other problems.

That sucks. BTDT too many times. But he's going to have to go through the steps to troubleshoot the problems. A second body and some light hammer tapping on the starter... Fuel steps listed above would be a good start. Check for actual fuel delivery.

I wish I were close enough to help.

QUOTE (swl @ Jan 18 2006, 07:16 PM)

how about other switched items - headlight motors? If you have a meter you can check for 12 volts at the coil - it is pretty much a straight run from the ignition switch.

Sounds like the other switched stuff is working. dead starter and fuel pump.

what about push-starting....

just get out of the car, push it real fast, jump in and drop clutch....



b

QUOTE (r_towle @ Jan 18 2006, 08:18 PM)

I called him. He has a multimeter...that is a blessing He is gonna check to make sure he has 12 volts at the coil He said he has tried switching all the relays and he cant get the fuel pump going, but when he jumpers it he can get it going...so that is that plan for that problem... Now, the non start issue... he is looking for the ground strap... and he will check the yellow wire coming from the ignition switch to see that he has 12 volts in the start position... If he does not, he has wire with him and will make a jump circuit from that pole on the starter to touch the positive pole on the battery... So worst case, he has a bad ignition switch and a flaky relay board... If that is the case, he will jumper the fuel pump, and hotwire the starter and get home.. Rich

Nice work Rich.

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Jan 18 2006, 10:20 PM)

what about push-starting.... just get out of the car, push it real fast, jump in and drop clutch.... b

we talked about his new parking procedures for the rest of the trip...

I told him that if its in good tune, a few feet is all I need to start it up on a hill...

He knew what I meant and will look for the correct parking on the way home...

Rich

QUOTE (r_towle @ Jan 18 2006, 08:22 PM)

QUOTE (bd1308 @ Jan 18 2006, 10:20 PM) what about push-starting.... just get out of the car, push it real fast, jump in and drop clutch.... b we talked about his new parking procedures for the rest of the trip... I told him that if its in good tune, a few feet is all I need to start it up on a hill... He knew what I meant and will look for the correct parking on the way home... Rich

I did exactly that all the way home from NorCal in a 72 1.7. That car ran like a watch (except for the starter- LOL). Worked great.

If anyone calls him again get the name of his hotel. I'm working on finding my wire diagrams. I think I can fax him at his hotel.

I am less than an hour away from there. If he needs a part I could rob it from my car to get him going. What does he need ???

I had to "park creatively" for a couple months while driving the 951, nose down

I vote for ignition switch first, then relay board and relay failure. If It were me I would rewire the fuel pump to the positive side of the coil and ground it to the battery body ground. That will then bypass everything and get the pump running. For the starter, I would just bump it with a screw driver from underneath to get it going. If you cross all the terminals then the you can test the power to the starter as well as bypas all the relay's and ignition switch crap, just remember to leave the key in the on position when you bump the starter and the car out of gear. That's what I would do if it were me
Eric

QUOTE (snflupigus @ Jan 18 2006, 07:14 PM)

i can be there in 2 hours... i have an entire wiring harness, a relay board that works (but is cracking...) and any tools you could ever need to fix whatever is wrong..... just left a message for him. I'm up for a road trip. anyone else want to go try and fix it if he calls? I can give it a good 3 hours of tinkering. 4 hours of sleep before work tomorrow = no problem

this is why this site rocks

QUOTE (MarkV @ Jan 18 2006, 10:25 PM)

I am less than an hour away from there. If he needs a part I could rob it from my car to get him going. What does he need ???

he may need an early ignition switch..
He may possibly need a relay board...
And some known good relays....
If you go, bring a known good starter also.

Give him a call, he has very few tools, so if you go for the starter and ignition switch, bring all the tools to do the job.
A ground strap would help also...
Some emery cloth to clean all the connections.

Rich

QUOTE (Eric Taylor @ Jan 18 2006, 10:28 PM)

I vote for ignition switch first, then relay board and relay failure. If It were me I would rewire the fuel pump to the positive side of the coil and ground it to the battery body ground. That will then bypass everything and get the pump running. For the starter, I would just bump it with a screw driver from underneath to get it going. If you cross all the terminals then the you can test the power to the starter as well as bypas all the relay's and ignition switch crap, just remember to leave the key in the on position when you bump the starter and the car out of gear. That's what I would do if it were me Eric

you must be young...us old guys dont like to lay down to much or we fall asleep.

see, if you run a wire from the terminal on the starter to somewhere near the battery...you only need to get under the car once...get dirty once...

then each time you want to start it, you pop the engine lid and touch the wire to the positive terminal...nice and clean...

I am so lazy that I built a switch for this....I can clip it on and press a button....dont need to be under the car to start it up...



Rich

lol, yeah at 19 I guess getting down and dirty just becomes a regular thing .

Cool idea about the extra length of cable for the starter or even better the switch, maybe it will have to go in the tool box with frankenstien wiring for the fuel pump.

Eric

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Jan 18 2006, 08:24 PM)

If anyone calls him again get the name of his hotel. I'm working on finding my wire diagrams. I think I can fax him at his hotel.

When I talked to him a couple hours ago, he said the tow truck driver had just dropped him off at the Super 8 motel.

Great job of helping him out. Thanks all!

QUOTE (MarkV @ Jan 18 2006, 07:25 PM)

I am less than an hour away from there. If he needs a part I could rob it from my car to get him going. What does he need ???

That would be cool! Call him if you think you can help. Find out what motel he's in. I'm trying to find my wiring diagrams. I want to see if I can fax them.

QUOTE (gregrobbins @ Jan 18 2006, 07:41 PM)

QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Jan 18 2006, 08:24 PM) If anyone calls him again get the name of his hotel. I'm working on finding my wire diagrams. I think I can fax him at his hotel. When I talked to him a couple hours ago, he said the tow truck driver had just dropped him off at the Super 8 motel. Great job of helping him out. Thanks all!

Cool!

i discovered on my seattle to phoenix purchase trip that i could start it using reverse! LOL there was no other way.

Correct parking procedures. Funny!

He has not called me back so I either dailed the wrong number and left a message on some strange persons voicemail OR... he's ok enough that he doesnt need my assistance. Guess i'll just keep workin on my own in the garage.

402-659-5882 in case he didnt get my message and someone else talks to him.

I just got off the phone with him. He is checked in to a motel. The car made it to the local garage via flat bed. He won't have a chance to try any of the suggestions until the morning. Doesn't know if he has 12v to the coil. He has been able to jump the relay board to get the fuel pump to run. He is going to call me tomorrow if he needs parts.

He pulled off the road to take a break and look at a map and the car wouldn't turn over. I bet it fires right up in the morning.

Benson is a real small town, one or two exits on I-10. Cable TV at at the hotel is down.

A meter is going to be a good thing to have if someone is going to go help him. There are multiple paths through the switch. Ignition is on one, fuel pump (actually the main power relay) is on another which also feeds the coil. If you can check the coil (pull it off the coil to measure) you can help prove or disprove the ignition switch theory. I suspect the switch because it is the only failure point that is common between the solenoid and the fuel pump.

You can also pull off the 12 wire connecter(back right) from the relay board and look for the solenoid 12 volt on pin 6 (right side 3rd from front).

remember to pull off the feed to the primary on the coil (black and red) if you are going to have the switch turned on doing trouble shooting.

QUOTE (MarkV @ Jan 18 2006, 07:46 PM)

He has been able to jump the relay board to get the fuel pump to run. .

That is consistent with the switch theory. The power for the fuel pump comes directly from the battery through that 25amp fuse on the relay board. The ignition switch fires the main power relay which provides power to the coil of the fuel pump relay.

I am convinced that any aircooled car can get home with a coat hanger, duct tape, 10 feet of wire, a jack knife, and pantyhose...

Rich

Just talked to Bob again. He is going to the library in the morning to use there internet. I told him about Pelicans wiring diagrams. I gave him my contact numbers incase he can't print from the library I can fax him. Sounds like he has a few options.

I had exactly the same thing happen. No pump, no starter. It was the ignition switch connections. I hot wired the fuel pump off of the coil, used a screwdriver on the starter, and drove it home. It did it again the same day, and I got it going again by jiggleing(sp) the the ignition switch wires. This is on the Black car, which is a 71 with a 72 ignition switch. The wire jiggleing(sp) may not work with the earlier hard wired switch. HTH.

Bump

Ignition Switch.... Keep in mind that when you turn the key
and the lights come on the dash does NOT mean the Ignition switch is always good.

The Ignition switch develops a flat or dead spot in the switch.
so as you slowy turn the switch watch the lights on the Dash.
If at any point they go out the Switch is Bad.

Just something to keep in mind as you try to rule the switch out.