Hey all,

After finally getting back to the states I had a chance to start going through my To Do list for the teener. Well that list just got allot longer

THe whole front end is shot and will need a bunch of work.

Anyone willing to discuss options? Replace what's there or swap out the front end? Also any tips on dropping the front end? I figure that it's easier to work on the suspension when it's out from under the car.

So 2 ball joints 2 tierod ends and struts at a minimum.
Yikes

Last pic. SOrry for the size the rest of the pics are in my Blog.

Passenger side

Ball joints and tie rods aren't too tought. Alot of people will probably recommend you go with Turbo tie rods. As far as shocks go, Konis seem to be the best, although I have Bilsteins and I like them. Also, I see that you have brackets for a front sway bar, but it doesn't look like you have one installed. Might as well get one of those, as it will tighten up the front end a fair bit.

If you're going in this far, you might as well replace the bushings as well. You have a few options here. The ultimate is Mueller's roller bearings, but they're $$. You could also get poly bushings which will be pretty stiff, but will probably make your car squeek over bumps. Then theres always stock bushings.

As far as lowering the car, it's easy. When everything is back together, you just need to crank the bolts on the torsion bar end caps. If you do a search for lowering, I'm sure you'll find everything you need to know.

I just did this all last summer. It's not a bad job, and assuming nothing breaks, you should be able to get it done in a weekend pretty easy.

What are the costs associated with rebuilding a front end?

I went back with stock tie rods... it's really not that expensive to do ball joints and tie rods... maybe $100 for all 4 pieces.

shop around prices, I think I got the ball joints from paragon, and the tie rods from pelican... or vice versa...

I got used Konis for about 125, IIRC. but Bilstiens are fine too... if I would have had to buy new, I would have gone Bilstien for the price... Bils are fine for street cars...

Paragon has good price on the poly bushinggs too...

Hey Neighbor,
I may have some spare good parts for ya. What year is your car? If you want some info and help I am not too far away. I just did my front end and it is not all that hard. PM me if ya like.
Mike

I see a problem in your future One of your struts is late model and one is early. This will make ordering ball joints more interesting as you will need one of each. I think I have a good old one that was installed, but not used. If I were you I would change the other strut over to a late model one with the swedge pin. They are much nicer in the long run. I'll bet you could pick up the strut for nothing from one of the members. I have seen this problem often.

Oh ya, soak your nuts and bolts now, and often. It will make life much easier in the future. I like to use penetrating oil, but anything should work that is designed to loosen rusty fasteners.

QUOTE

I see a problem in your future  One of your struts is late model and one is early.

Looks like two early's to me. Maybe you're looking at a front vs. a back shot.

Here's what I would do...

Yank that puppy. Call around and find a local sandblaster and tell him they're VW parts

Turbo Tie Rods
Koni or Bilstein Inserts
Zero-Rust or POR-15 everything before you throw it back together.
New bolts
Elephant PolyBronze -or- MUELLERS roller bearings -or- Standard Welts (your wallet will dictate)
New sponge washers for the t-bars
Check the t-bars for wear and rust
Alignment
Enjoy

I've done a bunch of these and I was always pleased with the results. The sandblaster will make a world of difference. You don't have to be a CW to basically get it back to new and start over... it's been 34 years since that stuff had a nice coat of protective paint.

I have a set of new style struts if you want to upgrade... problem is, you'll need new rotors and new calipers as well.

Forgot... by all means, attach a sway bar to those U-Tabs while you're in there.

Eric,
Picture one shows the head of a bolt and more metal where the strut attaches to the ball joint (early style), not a nut. Picture two shows no head of a bolt, at the same index, but you can make out the recessed wedge pin from a later style. I don't believe that the rotors and other gear need to be replaced as the bottom ball joint coupling part was all that was differnt on mine when I swapped them. The spindle was the same.

Nevermind about what I said abou thte rotors, I just remembered about the rotor thing, I got the rotors with the front end so I never had to worry about it.

Jaden,
Give one914racer a PM and see if he still has the front end pars that I gave him. He may have a strut with a good rotor on it and all you will need is to replace the bearings probably.

I would scrape the whole thing and put a 911 front end on.

QUOTE (mack914 @ Feb 3 2006, 12:25 PM)

I would scrape the whole thing and put a 911 front end on.

except that is $500 + rebuilding usually, + wheels and rebuilding a -4 front end is about $100...

I'm pretty much doing exactly what Eric recommends except I'm using my roller bearings instead of bushings

The advice on swapping over to the later style struts is good advice as well, later on down the road you could always upgrade to the billet front hubs to run vented rotors on the 4-lug setup (you'll have 911 brakes without the extra cost of 5-lug rims and rear conversion )

If you do keep your front struts, make sure to inspect the spindles, I've seen a few sets that the bearings are too loose due to wear and are unsafe to use....

(fixed)

QUOTE

Picture two shows no head of a bolt, at the same index

To me, pic #2 just shows the end of that bolt you see in pic one, that's what I meant by backside...

Hell I don't know. I'm looking at it on my laptop. Let me check with a better monitor.

911 would be nice, I did it, but then you would need to change your rears to match the 5 lug.

Eric,
If pic two were just showing the otehr side of the bolt you see in pic 1, how would you tighten said bolt? With t a nut? Not present Also, if they were of the same side, then you would have one side with two steering arms on it Freaky.

Low res, good one. I'll have to remmeber that


Just messing with ya.

a bumpsteer kit of you plan on lowering it, cheap. weit bushings, the cheapest way to go, you get what you pay for. after you figure out what you going to do with regards to the ball joints, just order new new pins/bolts at the same time. add in an alignment. then...you'll prob decide to get a corner balance while you're in there. so you need to decide which type of strut/shock/springs to get so you don't pay for the corner balance twice. gonna stiffen things up a bit, plan on new torsion bars for the front. brace yourself for the costs. do it right (the first time). you're gonna spend a grand, unless you scrounge a bunch of used stuff. then you are sort of where you started. oh yeah, new wheel bearings, grease seals. new rotors? new pads...it never ends. yrmv.

k

QUOTE

If pic two were just showing the otehr side of the bolt you see in pic 1, how would you tighten said bolt? With t a nut? Not present  Also, if they were of the same side, then you would have one side with two steering arms on it  Freaky.

Ya gotz me all wrong Sister...

I'm a little dense but what I was 'attempting' to say is; The head of the bolt in pic #2 is on the other side of the strut (hence, ya can't see it... you only see the end of the bolt), not that pic #2 is the backside of pic #1

DaveP...

Did we ever figure out that strut/caliper/rotor thing?

I'm still unclear if the struts could interchange with a early/late model rotor, as long as you have a early/late model caliper to port over with the rotor...?

I have some late struts laying around here in a box... but no early ones to compare with.

Anyone?? (besides Mike, because he's obviously imported a bunch of that California 'cannabis sativa' with him to the Keystone state)

Damnit Bevis,

Iffn ya can sees a bolt head then the strut is the older one. On the second pic there is no bolt head from the same aspect on the different side because it is the newr one that dont use a bolt.



I wish I had time to get high, but it would throw off my groove and not help much with the med school thing.

Ya punk

Oh, on the rotors. Pelican et al, sells different ones for the different years; e.g. 70-72, 73-76.

My 78 911 front end powder coated, sized welt bushings, Bilstiens, new ball joints, ss flex brake lines, 930 tie rods w/Elephant Racing's wheel stops, bump steer kit, 968 modified calipers/rotors and mono ball camber plates.

No T bars, front sway bar or wheels/tires yet.

Mar7ck

Eric / Mike,

According to my set of early struts, the bottom pinch-bolt thingy is identical, only one is rotated 180 degrees. Therefore one side has the bolt head pointing forward and the other has the bolt head pointing aft.

BTW, I have a spare set of early ball joints.

Mark,
are you and Eric in legue to drive me nuts trying to splain this?

Its simple. Pic 1 has a bolt head, the wedge pins DO NOT have bolt heads. They are tightened with nuts, but have NO bolt heads.

Now my head hurts. I give up. Anyone want to discuss bacteriophage recominant DNA? (Ahhhhhhhhh!)

I love you guys.

QUOTE

Oh, on the rotors. Pelican et al, sells different ones for the different years; e.g. 70-72, 73-76.

Ohhhhhhhhh Brooooooother... If Dr. Crack pipe doesn't understand the bolt thing, it oughta take years to explain the caliper/rotor issue

Mark, you are absolutely correct my studious friend from the South. Whenst this is all over, the Evil one shall owe us many, many adult beverages.

Eric, you can

To half ass quote something someone said, "arguing on the internet......special olympics......winner is still retarded."


I dont like you

Next...

It's "bacteriophage recombinant DNA" with a "b"... I'm guessing you'll get a "D" on your next exam (if you keep wanking with us)

Unless of course you're looking at it from the other side or pronouncing it backward... the "b" would then be invisable or the word would appear as "recominant" (the new version of the spelling). The "b" could be silent if approached from the backside...??

What would you like to know...?

Looking from the theoretical top (or bottom) of the strut, the bottoms are identical units, but since the bolts go to the inside of the ball joint pin, one of them has to rotate 180 degrees (on the long axis of the strut). Ergo, one bolt head forward, one bolt head rearward.

Fortunately for Mike, and my neighbors, I am not a consumer adult beverages.

Oh yeah

QUOTE

I dont like you

Oh yeah? OH YEAH?? I HATE You! You're never going to date my daughter again!

Mike took his ball and went home...

ya Bro. Good luck with your DNA's

Now... back to the thread.

We've got strut offers, ball joint offers and tons of ideas... I guess it's "jackstand" time for the teener. Let us know how you progress.

Stop shaking the monkey out of the tree, he has to study....hijack over.

You have adaughter Aw, nevermind. OFF LIMITS

Guys Settle. I put more pics in my blog Both sides DO NOT have nuts.

Ok you can continue now.

Another pic:

Oh and that 911 front end is hot!!! So what is reason for going to the 911 front end. Is it that much better?

the 911 is virtually identical in layout. You'll get:

5 lug hubs
Larger spindles
Slightly larger t-bars

That's about it...

Don't forget the bigger better brake option for the 3.5" spacing.

Also, the splines for the torsion bars are different for the 911 giving you more options. You could just get those expensive shock/struts that come with the spindles. Then you would just have to source the rotors, breaks and bearings. Its only money


I have a911 front end with the 3" spacing. It was off of a 70, but it gave me vented front rotors.

Jaiden,
Is that your front end in the pic? Already removed, good job.

OK... we'll give you that one (on some 911 front ends), otherwise he'll get all cranky with us again

Not getting cranky yet. I have had my tea, and have completely learned how we make urine. I love med school. Later I get to learn why/how we make crap and why it stinks

nice. would that be a hands on lab or (hopefully) a lecture? when do you get to the prostate exam phase ? what is your ring size ?

i'd sure love to see the reciepts on that suspention.

k

Yup,
That's mine. It took about 2.5 hours to get everything out taking my time.

I figured it would be so much easier working on the front end once removed. I have started the tear down of the asembly already.

Now it's time to shop parts. I think I'll stick with the 4 lug 914 front end for now but want to put the turbo tierod ends on and get a sway bar set-up and some nice struts.

I'm also going to replace the bearing in the colum and replace the steering wheel. It should run like a whole different feel

QUOTE

I figured it would be so much easier working on the front end once removed.

Smart

It's really easy enough to remove that, I personally wouldn't do that kind of work any other way.

Keep us posted.

Can anyone give me some suggestions on the best places to get parts?

Is PP and AA the cheapest? The turbo tierod upgrade looks pricy there and the sway bars are outragous!!

I need to start ordering parts soon if I want to get this back together.

Also try GPR (German Parts and Restoration), and HPH (High Performance House). Read the "is AA in trouble" thread before going there. Informative, and they are offering a 5% discount if you are still willing to do business with them. Just make sure that you get Lemferoder, not some off brand. Why do I say this? Becasue I bought the whole dang set up for $90 off of ebay from some place up in Main. I installed and drove for like a month. After the month I looked under my front end and noticed that every rubber part of that kit (the tie rod ends and rubber sleeves) were completely degraded and split. They looked like your front end, but cleaner. Yes I was pissed. So I ended up buying the good stuff from one of the major suppliers. If you find one that you are interested in going with for your parts, post them here and get some feed back. Many of us have been bitten before by the crappy ones and know the good ones.

Oh ya, some people may differ, but obe of the easiest ways to tell that you are getting the right parts is that the tie rod ends will have castellated nuts, not nylock.

Turbo Ties just had a huge jump in price. I found out the hard way as I sold a set to a customer and lost $50 clams

Check the threads here for the eBay guy that was selling them. they're supposed to be the proper ones.

I bought cheap ones once and the boots are the wrong type of rubber. The grease packed internally ate threw them about two weeks after I had them on the car. Do it right, do it once.

As far as sways go... look for a used set-up here. They go for $50-$100 depending. Get one complete and then get Mark Bland's (Engman here) mounting kits to weld in. A stock bar will be a drastic improvement and is an excellent choice for street driving. I wouldn't go over 19mm for a street driven car.

E.

QUOTE (Jaiden @ Feb 6 2006, 05:20 AM)

Can anyone give me some suggestions on the best places to get parts?

GPR

paragon... if they have it, I generally buy from them, followed by Pelican, or HPH

So I completed the tear down of the front suspensionand now need to plan for the rebuilding. There are 2 ways I can go but am looking for suggestions and some help on what are good prices. I'm planning on starting to AX this car but will also drive it on the street with the wifey.

1 Stock rebuild:

Sand blast and paint all hard parts
New bushings for A-arms
New felts for torsion bars
New Ball Joints
Turbo Tierods
New struts Boge or Bilsteins
New front wheel bearings and seals
Cut or replace rotors (Optional stockers are ok)
Brake pads (Optional stockers are ok)
New hardware
Alignment

2 Performance upgrade:

Used 911 front end (dependent on cost)
Sand blast and paint all hard parts
New bushings for a-arms (poly? or stock?)
New ball joints
New struts Bilsteins
Torsion bar felts
Turbo Tie rods
Rebuild kit for 911 calipers
19mm master cylinder
New wheel bearings and seals
Cut or replace rotors based on condition
sway bar kit ??mm or stock
New Hardware
Front 5 bolt wheels and lugs (minumum) or all four
Alignment


So am I missing anything here?

Yeah... for the stock on at the top:

Sway bar kit 19mm or stock and I'd lean toward stock depending on your driving habits.

I would have that on both.

Looks like you've got it covered.